Author Topic: Joe's on Carmine St.  (Read 15602 times)

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Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2013, 03:18:54 AM »
Pizza 1


Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2013, 03:24:53 AM »
Pizza 2. Sausage, garlic, grana padano. You can't tell too much by the pictures but there wasn't enought top browning on this one, definitely better than all previous attempts but still not quite there. First pie was way better in that sense. Bottom looks a lot like what I would get from my steel plate. This is a tough one, with the pan under the hearth there doesn't seem to be enough heat getting to the tiles. But if I get rid of the pan the tiles get too hot even with a 4 minute bake time, too much bottom charring in my opinion on this second pie.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 03:36:37 AM by paulo.vllrr »

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2013, 10:03:01 AM »
Paulo, while it's a bit disappointing to end up with burnt pizza, I think you'll agree that your long term goals are beginning to crystallize. This is probably the first time that I've found burnt pizza to be encouraging  ;D

From the burning of your undercrusts, I think it's pretty obvious we need the pan underneath back.  Can you score a second pan so you can put one underneath and one sitting under the thermostat? Btw, the pan is aluminum right?  Aluminum has a melting point of 1200F/660C. I don't think you're going to hit that, but, if you happen to run across a steel pan in the same dimension, get it.   Just to confirm- the pan underneath (aka the deflector) is a little larger/extends a bit on all sides of the quarry tiles, right?

Re; the spacers and the pan- you don't need that much space- just one layer of spacers (rather than three) to lift the pan about 1/4" to 1/2" is fine.

The crumb looks fantastic, as usual.  If, by the time you're done tweaking everything, you can get good top and bottom browning, good flop and that crumb, you're going to sell a LOT of pizza. I think the dough is coming along, and with those recent suggestions I gave you, you should be in good stead for the next batch.  We'll probably lose this in the future, but, could you keep taking dough ball photos?

Also, while we're on the topic of dough balls, it looks a little like you might be balling a bit too aggressively.  It depends a bit on what video you learn balling from, but some people will fold the dough over itself over and over again- many times. Personally, I don't fold, because I don't like the creases it gives me on both ends, but if you are going to fold, I'd only do it once or twice. Eventually I'd like you to try my balling technique, but it's pretty complicated- perhaps better for a later date.

This is the turning/retrieving peel that I use:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003E22RS4/?tag=pizzamaking-20

It's a bit heavy, but the blade is nice and thin while still being rigid.

This isn't something you see much with NY style pizza, but, once you have a metal peel, I want you to start thinking about doming- raising the pie towards the ceiling for the last few seconds of the bake to obtain a bit more top color. You don't want to touch the ceiling with the pizza, but you want to get as close as possible.

Lastly, you seem to be making great headway with your oven setup, and, for selfish reasons  ;), I'd sincerely like to see you nail it with that oven, but, if you wanted to simplify the oven aspect considerably, there's a new oven on the market that seems to be showing considerable promise- at a very reasonable price.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.0.html

There's some questions about build quality and how it relates to longevity/potential part failure and, as of yet, the forum is still dialing in the best pizza making approaches, but, a device like this could streamline your journey and bypass some of the tinkering you've been doing. $370 (it's current price) is a little steep for me, personally, but, for someone opening shop in the near future, it might be a worthwhile investment.  Maybe. There's also the added complexity of having this shipped to Mexico (perhaps your brother could help?) Anyway, I'm not really pushing you towards it, just tossing it out there as an idea.

And, speaking of tossing things out there, could you temporarily remove the ceiling and the top shelf and get a photo of the top vent/hole in the ceiling of the oven?  A new idea came to me the other day.  This is pretty far out there, but you might be able to run a section of small stove pipe from your makeshift ceiling to the top vent and bypass the thermostat a bit more. Maybe  ;D

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2013, 03:04:15 AM »
Scott, my pans are aluminum but Iíll keep an eye out for steel ones. And yes, the deflector pan underneath is a little larger on all sides than the quarry tiles. Iíll use just one layer of spacers for this weekís trial, as well as deflector pans for both bottom and top in the oven.

Iíll make sure to get pictures of all dough balls from now on. Iím  positive my balling technique is awful, I fold the dough over and into itself about 5 times off the hook then another 3-4 in the reball, trying to imitate this video as well as possible without any knowledge of whether or not itís correct:

http://www.ifood.tv/video/tony-gemignani-shows-how-to-ball-pizza-dough

 Whatever technique you use for balling (even if complicated) Iíd love to hear about it so I can start practicing. In the meantime, if you have another simpler technique for balling that you believe is better than folding over itself a few times, Iím all ears.

Iíll look for my turning/retrieving peel this weekend, I think I know where to get one for a decent price. Iíll give doming a shot as soon as I get it.

I took a good look at the blackstone oven thread, sounds interesting. Whatís even more interesting is the amount of other specifically designed pizza ovens that I had no idea existed. Iíll definitely look into it, but at the same time the style of pizza Iím making isnít the most complex (as say, NP) and with your help/a whole forum of information, my home oven just might be able to produce something 90% of the way there. Even though actually opening my pizzeria is still a long way off, my intention is to get a real deck oven as soon as possible so I can sleep well knowing that the pies I perfect at home are the ones that will be sold at the store. But that doesnít mean Iím disregarding your idea, it just means I have a lot of reading to do.

Speaking of which, when it comes to nationally made pro (or at least ďproĒ by this companyís standards) deck ovens this is the one and ONLY option. Itís the only pizza oven Iíve been able to find in Mexico that meets the basic needs I believe a deck oven needs for NY style. This is probably a topic for down the road so as to not detour too much from basic pizza making skills, but if you have a chance to look at it and see any obvious red flags when it comes to how itís built, that could save me a lot of time. If thereís something seriously wrong with it and I can find out now, that gives me more time to round up cash for importing an American oven. I realize itís in Spanish, if you have time to look at it let me know of any needed translations, I can translate the whole thing if necessary:

http://www.san-son.com/productos/coccion/hornos/horno-para-pizza-rz/

Iíll post the picture of the top vent hole with my next post. And lastly, I thought you should know that over the weekend I had an ďexpert pizzaioloĒ from one of Mexico Cityís most popular (and expensive) Italian restaurants tell me that itís impossible to get  a wood fired oven over 850 degrees F. He also didnít agree that ďNeapolitanĒ was a specific style of pizza, saying that it was more of a general category with many possible variations within. I dared him to post those statements on this forum haha.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2013, 03:10:46 AM »

Iíll post the picture of the top vent hole with my next post. And lastly, I thought you should know that over the weekend I had an ďexpert pizzaioloĒ from one of Mexico Cityís most popular (and expensive) Italian restaurants tell me that itís impossible to get  a wood fired oven over 850 degrees F. He also didnít agree that ďNeapolitanĒ was a specific style of pizza, saying that it was more of a general category with many possible variations within. I dared him to post those statements on this forum haha.

What a strange statement. While in some form or another I am sure he could prove neapolitan pizzas have many variations because the term variation is so ambiguous, his statement that a WFO won't go over 850F is just ignorant. That is beyond easy to prove.

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2013, 02:55:55 PM »
Paulo

To me pie #2 looks very enticing and would love to take a bite.   I think it would be commercially viable when the time comes to open your pizzeria.

Bob

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2013, 03:42:19 AM »
jeffereynelson, Unfortunately there is very little pizza culture in Mexico City when it comes to making it, which is a shame taking into account the amazing cooking talent that's available. I don't know what it is, but I think "ignorance" would definitely be the best word to describe it without trying to be disrespectful. On the up side, it's something that is sold on every corner and that everybody loves, which in theory is an opportunity for me.

Bob, Thanks for the encouraging words. I still owe you your oaxaca cheese pizza by the way, I'll try to get around to it in one of my next trials.

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2013, 05:11:48 AM »
Paulo, there's something seriously wrong with the sans son oven  :(  It lacks sufficient power.  I had to fudge the numbers a bit because they don't list internal dimensions (the only pizza oven I've ever come across that didn't), but using the 3" insulation as a way of determining internal dimension from external (by subtracting 6" from both depth and width), I was able to get an approximate number of BTUs per square inch of deck area.

The Marsal MB, a prime example of a suitable oven for NY style pizza (and the best on the market right now, imo), comes in at 55 BTU per square in.  This oven is 30. That's weak. It's probably going to be close to your home oven, without the steel and without any modifications.

Have we talked about projected volume? How many pizzas are you planning on selling?  If you're looking at a small operation- perhaps less than 50 pizzas a day, you might be able to work with this many BTUs (possibly with some additional alterations such as adding a brick ceiling), but any more than 50 and I think you're in trouble.  The busier you get, the longer the bake times will get and your pizza will suffer.

Even if you're doing less than 50 pies a day, I still need considerably more information about this oven to be able to recommend it.  Is it safe to assume that this is a popular oven?  If it's common, that should point to a good build quality.  If you don't know anyone who is using it, then you really have no choice but to see a model in person and make sure it's built solid.

The other big aspect is thermodynamics.  American manufacturers have been building gas deck ovens for decades and pretty much understand all the elements that go into deflecting heat up and around the pizza so the top bakes at the same rate as the bottom (much like your pan is doing in your setup). With an unknown oven manufacturer, the only way to know that they've got the thermodynamics right is photos and/or diagrams of the inside.

I'd like to say that if the thermodynamics are off, you might be able to correct them with modifications, but, without seeing the inner workings of the oven, I can't promise that either. Perhaps the company can give you more information/photos.

The bottom line is that I'm not saying a flat out no to this, but I have, at this point, some pretty serious reservations. What's the price?

As far as the balling goes, let me start out with a photo:

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2013, 05:24:30 AM »
Can you see the position of his hands? That's how I ball dough.

I start with a slightly tacky piece of dough (too much flour and the dough won't grip to the bench surface and this won't work). With the dough on the bench, I use the sides of my hands to pinch the sides of the dough into the bench (pulling the dough from the top) while rotating the ball so the pinching doesn't create any creases.

It's sort of a karate chopping movement with both hands- except slow and methodical, and, to rotate the ball, pushing the left hand away from myself, while pulling the right hand towards.

The hands don't meet under the dough- if they did, the dough would come off the bench and not grip as it rotates.

After I've done this about 4 or 5 times, I turn the ball over and pinch the hole shut.

What this method achieves is, rather than folding over two flaps of dough and having creases on both sides, you're rotating the excess dough and making a spiral of very small creases underneath. You're using both hands, moving in different direction, and the bench (as long as the dough is a bit tacky) to form the ball.  If the ball doesn't grip the bench, the excess dough doesn't spiral and you end up with a crease.

This is a very labor intensive way of balling, and is a method I will most likely move away from, but, until a find a better way to get a closed ball without creases, this is what I'm going with.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 05:29:41 AM by scott123 »

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #89 on: June 28, 2013, 02:39:50 AM »
Scott, this is probably a very obvious question but when talking about the San Son oven specs you are referring to the larger ZPRZ model and not the junior correct? I see that the Marsal MB 60 is coming in at 130,000 BTUís in a deck area that appears similar, either way I want to make sure.

When it comes to projected volume Iím still not sure since the concept has changed many times (and will most likely keep on changing) but I think for now, 50 pizzas a day sounds like a nice conservative scenario. But if the business takes off and I need to pump out 100 pies a day, Iíd rather have an oven that can handle it from the get go.

San Son is considered by just about everyone in the restaurant industry in Mexico as the best NATIONAL brand of kitchen equipment. Thatís makes it a very popular choice for the price and from what Iíve heard they have an excellent build quality.  Now, that in no way means that itís what Iím looking for. Pizza in Mexico is made very differently (standard 15-20 minute bake times) from the way itís made in NY, and with the exception of a very questionable ďNY StyleĒ sold by a California-based franchise (which has no stores in NY) called ďFlippiní PizzaĒÖthis style of pizza does not exist in this city.

Iíve been in contact with this company several times and they are completely willing to send me any information I need or to go and do a test run with the oven, no charge and no commitment. I can do both except I think it would be better to get the info first and see if it rules out further investigation, since the factory is 1 Ĺ hours away from my house. When you get a chance, could you send me the list of questions/photos we need to have answered, or do you think itís just wasting time and that I have to go and see it for myself?

I understand that American ovens are definitely the safer bet, but hereís the catch: with delivery and installation the San Son ZPRZ is at $3,250 dollars at todayís current exchange rate. I was in contact with Bakerís Pride and was looking at around 11-12 grand to actually buy it and get it down here. Big difference, but if necessary Iíll figure it out.

I think I understood the balling process, let me get you a video of me doing it and see how close/far off I am.

I did a trial tonight and finally got temps of everything, but I also got food poisoning this week and was moving at 30% my normal speed, so Iíll have to post the photos, temps and info tomorrow since I can barely type at this hour haha.




Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #90 on: June 28, 2013, 07:49:02 PM »
Hereís this weeks info and results. Dough formulation: 66% hydration, 0.75 TF, 2% sugar, 2% vegetable oil, 4 minute paddle, 3 minute dough hook. 2 day cold ferment, reballed 8 hours before baking and 2 Ĺ hour room temp individual rise.

Off the hook my dough was at 74F and went into a 39F fridge. First pic is off the hook, second pic is after balling (two fold overs, not your technique yet), third and fourth pics are balls taken out of fridge just before reballing, fifth is a dough ball right after reball (again, two fold overs) and lastly my oven setup with two deflector pans and Ĺ inch of spacing for the top pan.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 08:16:13 PM by paulo.vllrr »

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #91 on: June 28, 2013, 07:56:58 PM »
Pizza 1. After 1 hour and 15 minutes preheating my oven temps got to 480F in the top chamber and 560F in the bottom chamber. In my very little knowledge of ovens, that is quite a difference. First pie was made with cheap tomato puree and uncooked pasta simulating cheese weight to test it out without wasting expensive imported tomatoes on burnt pizza. 5 minute bake time, no rotation.

As far crust it was probably the best tasting/best undercarriage out of the three pizzas, there was only a 15 minute gap between each pizza which didnít give it enough time to reach the same temps again. Something I didnít realize until afterwards when checking notes.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #92 on: June 28, 2013, 08:12:15 PM »
Pizzas 2 and 3: The bottom chamber of the oven was only getting back up to around 510-515 between pies, which inevitably had a negative effect on the crust. Either way taste was good but not as good as my last test, and even though there was more flop because of the formulation and reduced TF the outermost layer of crust was cracker crunchy. Iím guessing this had to do with the  slightly longer bake time and formulation perhaps? You should be able to get an idea of the crunchiness in some of the pictures, especially the third. At least to me, both undercarriages looked identical on these pies, as well as crumb structure so I only posted one of each. Since I couldn't find a metal peel last weekend the only pie I rotated was the third (3 cheese) taking the pizza out of the oven, rotating it then putting it back in for the last 2 of 5 minutes. 

Lastly, I found these tomatoes at a specialty grocery store. I looked into Mutti and they apparently are big in Italy but I'm not 100% sure if tomato pulp is the same as crushed, which you recommended. It says on their website that they are "finely chopped tomatoes", do you think it's the same thing? (top can)

http://www.mutti-parma.com/en/our-range/polpa-tomato-pulp
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 08:19:40 PM by paulo.vllrr »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #93 on: July 02, 2013, 10:49:30 AM »
Paulo,

While travelling recently in Mexico with my son and his family, I made a point to look at the canned tomatoes/sauces sections of supermarkets we visited during our travels, including Walmart and Sam's. What I found is that there were few choices of canned tomato products. I saw some canned tomatoes from Italy and from Spain, but the only product that I saw that may have been from Mexico was from a company called La CosteŮa. That is a brand that I have seen many times in the U.S. in supermarkets, especially those that cater to a Hispanic clientele.

I also came across three Sbarro locations, two at the Puerto Vallarta airport and one in the Galleria Mall in Guadalajara. I could not see the model of oven used in the Galleria (it was a deck oven, however) but the two ovens used at the Puerto Vallarta airport were Marsal deck ovens. That is consistent with what Sbarro uses for most of its locations. One of the things I found interesting at the Sbarro locations is that they hand out packets of ketchup with their pizzas.

My son, who has spent a fair amount of time in Mexico, tells me that the Mexicans are crazy over pizza. My daughter-in-law recently made some pizzas for a local worker and her family that my son hires when in Mexico, using local flour (basic all-purpose flour like the Selecta or LaPerla) and other ingredients from Walmart, and they all went gaga over the pizzas. My daughter-in-law ended up showing the woman how to make the dough and pizza. She used a food processor (Cuisinart) and a pizza stone and peel. My daughter-in-law sent me the photo shown below.

It sounds like there is a big market in Mexico for pizza. I have had some pretty bad pizza there so a quality pizza should be able to capture good market share.

Peter

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2013, 03:15:39 PM »
Peter,

You're correct about the tomatoes. La CosteŮa is a national brand that cans just about everything: beans, salsa, vegetables, fruit etc. I didn't even bother trying them since their quality is extremely low, all of their products are planned for mass production and low prices. As far as other brands go, as you said there are a few italian brands like Cirio (which is what I've used for most of the pizza tests) and Orlotti, and I recently found Mutti at a specialty grocer. I really liked the taste of mutti as a pasta sauce, it has a san marzano-ish sweetness and very little acidity. But as Scott mentioned in an earlier post, for the kind of pizza I'm doing I need something with a bolder flavor that can stand up to toppings. The sauce, although delicious, didn't do too great last test. I was also able to find Anna Lisa italian tomatoes which I quite liked very much. Even though I have to pay for shipping to get them to the city (the importer is near Cancķn) they're probably my best choice flavorwise for the moment. I've been in contact with a bunch of brands like Cento and 6in1, but none of them seem interested in the hassle of sending product for just one person with a restaurant, understandable. However you look at it , the options are limited.

It had never ocurred to me to look at what kind of oven the Sbarro's here use, good idea. I have only been to two here in Mexico City and even though I didn't look at the oven make, I can remember that they're definitely not a national brand simply because of the size. Next time I'm near one I'll check just to make sure. If you had a chance to try pizza there, did you notice a difference in taste between the Mexico locations and the ones in the US? All chain pizzerias that are in both countries always taste different (worse) to me in Mexico, I'm guessing the quality of ingredients is lowered to achieve a lower price point.

 What you say about the ketchup is also true. Most pizza in Mexico is consumed with A LOT of extra sauces, salsas and seasoning put on right before eating. The most common condiments are: Salsa Valentina (a hot red pepper sauce), Worcestershire sauce, Salsa Maggi (an extremeley concentrated soy based sauce), Salsa Botanera (a sauce made from various chiles) and ketchup. I've also seen people put mustard, mayonnaise, soy sauce, green tomato salsa, and if it's a more upscale place, they usually have their own house-made sauces. Below there's a great picture of a slice drowned in various sauces, the orange floating at the top is Valentina, the red underneath that is watery mexican ketchup and the brown puddles on the plate next to the slice would be a mixture of Worcestershire sauce and Salsa Maggi. This is a practice that I've never understood. Even with terrible pizza I don't understand how drowning it in salty and spicy sauces is going to make it any better. Nevertheless I understand that if I want to sell pizza in Mexico I HAVE to give people the option of drowning their pies in sauce, there's no way around it. The best thing I can think of is to make my own specialty sauces. Even though my pizza will be made to be eaten as-is, if they're going to smother it in sauce I'd rather it be something good that I made instead of superconcentrated salt goop.

And lastly, your son has his facts dead on about pizza in Mexico. People are obsessed with it here (as with the majority of countries) and this was one of my main reasons for getting into this. At the same time I'm baffled at how nobody in MC has taken the time to develop a quality product, I guess it's a mixture of not considering importing quality ingredients themselves and just a general lack of interest. Who knows.

It's great that they made pizza for that worker and his family, and considering that they bought all the ingredients at a local walmart, it looks very good!

It sounds like your family comes down to Mexico quite a bit, that's great! Be sure to let me know if you or anyone else from your family is ever in MC, I have some great food spots for recommending and/or showing if anyone's interested.

Paulo
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 03:23:30 PM by paulo.vllrr »

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2013, 04:28:47 PM »
Paulo, as usual, we have a gargantuan amount of ground to cover.

I'm talking about the ZPRZ

The price difference between the ZPRZ and a Marsal is definitely sufficient enough to merit further investigation into the ZPRZ.

I would approach San Son twice- first with easy/should-be-in-the-brochure type of questions, and then hit them with the hard stuff.

First Round of Questions

Internal oven dimension?
Hearth thickness and material?
Interior oven chamber (wall/ceiling) material and thickness?
Is the door insulated?

Second Round of Questions

Hearth dimension and weight? (to calculate density)
Deflector material and thickness?

Request photos of:
   inside oven
      side wall
      ceiling
      inside vent (should be top middle)
      hearth - top view
      hearth - side view (removed from oven)
      Deflector (with hearth removed)
      Side wall and deflector (with hearth removed)
   Burner chamber
      burner
      ceiling/deflector
      sides

On each of these photos, if possible, you want a shot of the entire item and a closeup.  If they're willing to take the ceiling off the oven, a top down shot of the oven chamber and the walls would be incredibly useful (but not absolutely critical).

Another question for the second round is to inquire to see if they can give you a custom, higher BTU burner and how much extra it would cost.

The last question I'd ask them would be if they have any customers in your area that would let you see their oven.  That could end up saving you some travel time.

They'll have no problem with round one of the questions, but I doubt they'll take this many photos for you. If they can, then I think there's a good chance you won't have to take the trip, but if they can't, and there's no local businesses willing to show you their oven, I don't think you'll have a choice but to make the drive.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2013, 04:37:20 PM »
Paulo,

It is my granddaughter who likes to order pizza when we are out, whereas I like to try the local cuisine. It's been a while since I last had Sbarro pizza in the U.S. and that was before Sbarro filed for bankrupcy. I have had the Sbarro slices most often at the airport in Puerto Vallarta. I thought the slices were quite expensive but tastewise they seemed fine. My granddaughter let me sample some of her Sbarro slice (pepperoni) from the Galleria in Guadalajara and it tasted like the other Mexican Sbarro slices I have eaten. I remember turning to my daughter-in-law after eating a part of the crust from my granddaughter's slice and saying "2% salt" :-D.

Thank you for your kind offer to assist us if we are ever in Mexico City. I usually visit Mexico twice a year, in the summer and around Xmas when my granddaughter is out of school. I usually go where they want to go. The Guadalajara trips often have a shopping purpose but we also go to Tonala, which has some great values, and to Tlaquepaque, which is more expensive and more touristy but still a lot of fun. My family all speak Spanish, which I discovered has a lot of advantages when negotiating with the locals in the areas we visit. Speaking Spanish has saved my son's family a lot of money. But, everywhere we go, I take notice of the pizza places. And, with each visit to Mexico, I see more of such places. And I see more of the people eating pizza. If you can nail the Joe's style of pizza, I would think that you should do quite well. However, getting the proper balance between the quality ingredients you use and the pricing of the pizzas while remaining competitive is likely to be a challenge, just like it is in the U.S. when independents try to compete with the likes of Domino's. BTW, there is a Domino's at the Galleria in Guadalajara. I watched their store from where we were seated and it did not look busy, whereas Sbarro's had a line of people waiting to order. It may be that Domino's only sells whole pizzas and not slices. In retrospect, I perhaps should have been more attentive.

Peter

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2013, 05:15:00 PM »
Next topic: Tomatoes.

I did a little digging and found a couple links that I hope will help

http://www.mexconnect.com/forums/Specific_Focus_C3/Mexican_Kitchen_F14/canned_tomato_products_P103250/
http://www.cirio1856.co.uk/index.php?section=prodotti&cat=1-tomatoes&page=9-pomissimo

The cirio brand tomatoes, are, from what I gather, available in Mexico City, although, as imports, they're most likely not cheap.

No matter what canned tomato you go with, make absolutely sure that you avoid anything packed in glass.  Glass allows light to pass through and light is deadly to tomatoes as it allows them to oxidize/darken and you loose the bright color and bright taste (think paste).

Let's talk about fresh tomatoes one more time.  You have access to ripe plum tomatoes at a reasonable price, right?  You will also have access to kitchen help that can be allocated towards labor intensive tasks, correct?  Blanch, peel and mill fresh tomatoes.  It's a ton of work, but if you have access to inexpensive and reliable labor, along with inexpensive tomatoes, it will beat canned tomatoes in both quality and price.

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2013, 06:16:42 PM »
Finally, let's talk about this last bake :)

First, if you can take the undercrust and crumb from that first pie and combine it the appearance/top browning of the later pies, I don't care WHAT kind of imprinting the Mexicans have had in regards to pizza preferences... you will be an incredibly rich man.

For the love of money - O' jays Full Version


Okay, onto the minutiae :)

I think we're both in agreement that you need more flop- next stop on the altitude correction flop acquisition train- 67% percent hydration- and 3% oil. Other than that, I think the process looks solid. Next time, hold a warm slice by the rim and take a photo of it to see how much it droops (if any). It's just like your single slice undercrust shot, but with a 90 deg. rotation so the bottom of the slice runs parallel to the ground.

The dryness of the doughball seems to point to a strong flour- possibly a bit stronger than the specs (or maybe more in line with the original specs). How is the texture of the crust after it cools? Is it at all tough? At this point, I don't think we need to make any major changes (and possibly jeopardize that beautiful crumb), but if you are seeing toughness, it might be time to blend with a softer flour.

I know that, because of your location, you don't have access to the same equipment that we do, so I feel bad getting on your case about this, but the containers absolutely have to be round. Even if you're working with round glass or round ceramic bowls, it's better than square or rectangular containers.

Speaking of containers, next time, if you're using a clear container, could you get an undershot of the bottom of the dough pre-form?

Speaking of equipment, think about fashioning your own metal turning peel- cut a thin steel disk, then take a metal broom handle (with the paint removed) with a groove cut into the end and find a welder to weld the two together. 

The oven setup looks solid- I just want to confirm the distance between the bottom deflector and the side and back wall.
 
I was kind of hoping for a slightly greater difference in temp between the lower part of the oven and the top, but I'll take anything I can get.

Next time, go with 1:45 on the pre-heat.  This is not the time of the year for really long pre-heats, but, with the thermal mass you've got, I don't think we have a choice. I might, the time after next, have you remove one layer of the ceiling tiles, but, for now, let's see what the longer pre-heat does.

If you can, take more IR readings:

hearth center
hearth edge (about 1" in)
bottom of tile ceiling center
bottom of tile ceiling edge
Top of tile ceiling edge
thermostat temp
oven ceiling center
oven ceiling edge

Does your final pizza diameter match up with the diameter you use in the dough calculator to determine thickness factor? Joe's might very well be a .075 TF, but, because of the extreme oven spring you're getting, in order to match their crust thickness, I suggest .07. Also, start pressing out a smaller rim.  NY slices, on the whole, have practically no height to their rims.

From now on, you can feel safe that the first pie won't burn, so use good sauce and cheese on the first pie you bake.  The longer than 15 minute recovery time is a concern.  Between the deflector and the quarry hearth, I think we might have handicapped the bottom a bit too much.  Let's first see what a longer pre-heat brings you and then go from there- possibly with some deflection tweaks and/or a different hearth material.

Speaking of not burning the undercrust, not only will the oven setup guarantee that your undercrust won't burn, but it should be a natural part of the baking process to check the undercrust every few minutes (usually during the turn), to see how it's going, and, if it is getting to dark, either pull it or dome it. You can't, unfortunately, leave the oven open for long stretches of time or keep opening and closing it, but you can develop a sense for when to check and make sure the undercrust isn't going too far.  This is a skill that you will take into the professional realm as well, as you won't be using a stopwatch to bake with, but, rather, just getting a feel for how long the pies take and checking them for doneness about that time (all while minimizing the number of times you open the door).
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 06:26:25 PM by scott123 »

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2013, 06:01:30 PM »
Scott,

I wrote to San-Son and sent them the full list of questions, explaining the situation beginning to end. I did it all in one e-mail because the salesperson already knows me, he had helped me out several months back when I asked if they could modify on oven to hit 800F (right at the beginning I wanted to do a Difara type pie). They said they could but that it would triple the price. Itís good to know they are open to modifications, either way letís see what info I get back and go from there.

Tomatoes: Cirio tomatoes are available at every single supermarket Iīve look for canned tomatoes  in MC, theyíre the first tomatoes I ever used for sauce and the ones Iíve used most often in trials. I was under the impression that they werenít that great because of their vast availability in a generally canned tomato-handicapped city. I know that this statement doesnít make too much sense, but usually in MC if you can find some food item everywhere itís because itís very low quality. And secondly  because I hadnít been able to find anyone recommending them or even mentioning them, anywhere. Not so strangely, my sauce recipe made with Cirio has beat out every single other canned tomato sauce when put on pizza, and itís been up against a lot of brands. Itís not cheap at the store but considering the 30% margin walmart usually increases, that would make it one of the cheapest tomatoes (compared to my other options) I could get my hands on directly from the importer. Iíll take it from your tomato post that you believe these to be one of my better options, if I choose the canned tomato route?

I donít think Iíve ever bought a packed glass container of tomatoes. Not because I was aware of what youíre saying, simply because their usually premade sauces here, which I donít like. I now have better reason to continue to not buy them.

I donít have a real answer for how cheap I can get ripe plum tomatoes, or if theyíre available year round. But I promise to look into bulk prices at the cityís main abasto (supply?) market as well as contact a few tomato producers, of which I already have many contacts. The answer to will I have kitchen help for intensive labor tasks is yes. Iīll put this on the list of things to do and let you know when I have some real comparable numbers.

Last Bake: Thanks for the video hahaha itís nice to consider the possible monetary implications of what Iím doing from time to time. Incredibly rich sounds nice...very nice.
 
My last two tests have been 14 inch pies. Unfortunately thatís as big as theyíre going to get since they just barely fit in the oven as it is.

67% hydration, 3% oil, everything else the same. Itís already in the fridge cold fermenting .

The texture of the crust after it cools does get pretty tough, and definitely doesnít taste too good. I agree with trying out the softer flour, what protein percentage do you recommend I shoot for?

Iíll get round containers this weekend, I know where to get them.

Last weekend I found only one place that sold a metal pizza peel, it felt extremely cheap but was priced at over 50 dollars. I like your approach better. My brotherís coming down from NY next week but after a COMPLETE set of cocktail making tools, flour, various canned products and books that he somehow has to get through customsÖhe drew the line at pizza peel. 

The bottom deflector is 1 inch from the back wall and just about 2 inches from the sides, on either side. Does that sound good or should I get a pan thatís larger? Iíll get a picture of the bottom deflector for my next post.

1:45 it is for tomorrow, Iíll be sure to get all those readings as well.

My final pizza diameter is matching up with my dough calculator formulations. Even though I know Joeís is slightly thinner, I think 0.75 might be a better bet for now. I did quite a few trials with 0.07 and they appeared to be a little beyond the boundries of almost everyone else that tried it when it comes to ďhow thin Mexicans like their pizzaĒ. ďToo thinĒ was mentioned by just about everyone, and even though I want this to be a real NY pizza at the same time it has to be a commercial product everybody loves. Once we get the dough formula/oven setup figured out Iíll go back to doing trials with 0.07 and see what feedback I get. The smaller rim is something I realize Iím missing every single time, Iíll do my best to really get it smaller.

Thanks for the tips in the last paragraph about baking, Iíll keep them in mind. Iíll also give doming a shot tomorrow, which I had completely forgotten about it.

And lastly, I've been curious for awhile now: do you own a pizzeria(s) or do you just do this as a hobby? Your posts here on the forum as well as other places showcase the knowledge of an industry expert, so I had to ask.

*If I remember correctly, I owe you a couple pictures of my ovenís steam vent, here you go:
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 06:05:25 PM by paulo.vllrr »


 

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