Author Topic: Joe's on Carmine St.  (Read 13056 times)

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Offline PizzaSean

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Joe's on Carmine St.
« on: October 04, 2011, 01:07:04 AM »
Hey everybody,

I'd love to make a pie like Joe's on Carmine St.  I've tried using the search function to see if anyone has collected any info on them before and the only thing I seemed to find was that they were running their deck ovens at 550F. 

That alone is interesting since they get quite a bit of char on their the underside and edge of their crusts... perhaps because it is so thin?

I'd guess they are down in the .07 range for TF, and my super novice guess would be something like AT flour, just since I know it's very popular in the NY pizzerias.  No idea how to judge hydration though others on here seem to do it quite readily!  Have a look....
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB8_varXP6U" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB8_varXP6U</a>
  old video... hasn't been 2.25 since when I first went there like 10 years ago or something...

I love their sauce/cheese flavor and would love to capture that, but have no idea what's going on there. 

Any thoughts would be super helpful!

Sean


Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 06:26:47 AM »
It's been quite a few years since I've had Joes, but, if memory serves me correctly, it didn't have the level of chewiness that one normally finds with fully developed All Trump doughs.  You can get a tender crust if you underknead All Trumps, but, watching the video, I don't think they're working with an underkneaded dough.  All Trumps (or other 14% bromated flour) tends to be the industry standard, though, so maybe they are using it and the tenderness is coming from the oven spring and thickness factor (or maybe additional oil).  I would try two flours- bromated All Trumps and bromated 13% flour (King Midas Special, Spring King, Full Strength, etc).

The cheese is going to be Grande, and it's less than other pizzerias. On an 18" pie, that could translate into 10 oz. of cheese. They're renowned for being stingy with their cheese, though, so if you're making this at home, I'd use more.

From watching the stretching that they're doing in the video, I'm pretty certain that you're dealing with a mid hydration dough- at or close to the absorption value.  For All Trumps, this would probably mean 62-64%

Sean, don't get too caught up with oven temps.  A typical home oven at 550 is not the same as a deck oven at 550 because of the lack of thermal mass. Think about how quickly things cook while boiling at 212 versus baking at 212.  Different materials, different heat transfer, different ball game. The only consistent way of looking at pizza baking is by time- a 4 minute pie in a pizzeria will match a 4 minute bake at home.  I would say this is a 4-5 minute bake- and not a done at 3 minute bake and then pushed a minute longer for extra charring like you might find at a coal place. Joes might have a tiny bit of char, but it isn't much.

NY tradition has been same day or overnight ferments.  Since Joes crust has never struck me as being one dimensional in flavor, I'm leaning towards overnight. With the number of pies they sell, I have a hard time picturing them having the room for that much walk-in space, so I think we're talking about a room temp overnight. Like the cheese, though, you have an opportunity to do better, so don't shy away from a superior 1 or 2 day cold ferment.

The thickness factor is most definitely .07 and not a fraction more. This is one of the thinnest crust pizzas I've ever eaten. It might even be as low as .065.

Oil is a bit of toss up. My gut feeling is yes, there's oil. I would give 2% a shot.

If you cold ferment for a day or longer, then I'd omit the sugar.  If you do an overnight, then I'd add 1% sugar.

This is a pretty well kneaded dough. I wouldn't take it (or any dough) to window pane, but I'd go pretty close to smooth for an overnight and halfway between smooth and cottage cheese for cold ferments.

The sauce adheres pretty closely to my sauce philosophy- everything augments the tomato, nothing overpowers it.  If you're going to add oregano, it should be just a pinch.  Sugar, sure, just enough to offset the sourness of the tomatoes. Garlic, a little bit.

To be honest, I think one of the big reasons why you don't see any reverse engineering threads on Joe's is that there's no information out there to glean anything from.  We can make a lot of educated guesses and come close, but without any videos of the dough being made, we're kind of flying blind.

Speaking of videos, the way the dough seems to handle, the thickness factor and the look of the finished pie all remind me a bit of Luigi's in San Diego.  I would take a look at that thread.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2011, 10:50:37 AM »
Thanks, Scott!  Helpful as always...

I'm not sure that Corrado's carries any of the 13% bromated flours, but perhaps I can do what you mentioned in a different thread and go 2:1 AT:AP flour and mix it up that way as an experiment.

I certainly see what you are saying about the oven temp being sort of irrelevant here... my main goal right now is to just figure out what type of dough will come out best given the oven setup that I do have access to.  The curiosity in Joe's is sort of a side interest to that, but since I enjoy that pizza a lot, I figured I'd look into it.

I have been skimming the Luigi's thread and will give it some more attention also!



Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2011, 11:34:25 AM »
Sure thing, Sean.

I've yet to make the trip, but I'm pretty certain that Dawn Foods in Edison carries one of the 13% bromated flours, although blending AT with AP will work.

Where are you at with your current bake time?  You've been doing pretty dark pies, right?

If you want, I could put together a few permutations to test, but, you might want to save yourself some work and see where Mike gets with his Luigi and/or Avellino clone (another Joe-ish pizza), since he's going to be working with steel plate soon. Tweaking his recipe to make it a bit more Joe-like would most likely be easier than starting from scratch.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2011, 02:27:49 PM »
I actually must confess that I have no exact current bake time figure.  If I had to guess, I'd estimate 6-7 minutes to get them dark like this http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14708.0;attach=39408;image

I'm wondering if a more mid hydration dough with a .07ish TF would bake a little faster on my setup.  I've been getting the soapstone up to 600F give or take a little by pushing the oven to 550F and running the broiler.  I can also start to just pull them out when they are a lighter doneness, because I enjoy pizza like that, as well.  See if maybe the results are better...


Is Dawn Foods open to the public?  Any advantage to going with the 13% bromated flour straight instead of doing the 2:1 AT/AP?  I'm guessing having all of the flour being bromated instead of just 2/3 is a plus side of the real stuff...

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2011, 02:46:49 PM »
When I called Dawn Foods last year, they said they were cash and carry (open to the public).  2/1 does dilute the bromate, so, yes, 13% protein bromated flour would be better in that regard.

How long are you pre-heating the soapstone for? I think a 550 preheat sounds about right for Joes.  With that thickness factor, it might end up being as little as 4 minutes, but that should be close to Joes.  I would try 550, then 525.


Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2011, 04:21:29 PM »
The last time I heated it up, it seemed to get to temp in about an hour.  I usually give it at least 1.5 hours because I never realized it came up to speed that quickly. 

Good to know about Dawn Foods... I might give that a try since I had to ditch the last tiny bit of my AT do to a little kitchen mishap.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2011, 05:50:16 PM »
Hey Scott and all -

Just updating that I picked up a bag of Full Strength today from Dawn Foods in Edison.  It was 19.85 and about an hour wait... they apologized and I can't tell you if this is standard.  On the phone they said allow 2 hours to fill the order, so I wasn't expecting to have to wait an additional hour on top of that there - some apologies about being understaffed, etc. . .

Excited to see how it works out this weekend or at the last next Tues.

Sean

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2011, 06:11:49 PM »
An hour wait?!?!  That's insane.  Still, as far as I know, Dawn is one of the few places that has a wide selection of flours. Perhaps I could call ahead?

Horrible shopping experience aside, that's great that you scored some Full Strength.  I think you should be very pleased with it.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2011, 01:52:15 AM »
Well - as I said it seems to have been extenuating circumstances... one of the customers ahead of me had apparently gotten into a tough spot and had to place an enormous order with them and they said they were understaffed in the warehouse at that time on top of it. 

In their favor, as soon as the gentleman with the enormous order decided to cut his losses at a 2 hour wait and come back the next morning, the other person waiting was given an invoice immediately and I was given mine a minute later. 

Against their favor - we were told to go to the ramp and someone would be out with our products and bring them right to the car.  After waiting ANOTHER long while (we were desensitized by this point) I decided to walk back over to the office and ask what was up.  She told me she'd call them again and at that point the warehouse door opened, a guy asked what we needed and we each had our very simple orders filled in about 1 minute tops.  Why we weren't driving away a long time earlier?  Not sure....


Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2011, 02:05:56 AM »
And yes - calling ahead is required by them, they told me they wanted a 2 hour lead time for all orders.  This may be enough on a normal day, but I know for sure that I'll be giving more like a 4 hour lead time if I need to refill the Full Strength.

Looking forward to trying it out... without aiming to clone Joe's or anything, but using that as sort of a guide what do you think of this:

TF .07
h2o 63%
oil 2%
salt 2%
IDY ??

Haven't decided on overnight/2 day, but I'm leaning to 2-day because I'm used to it and I know a lot of people agree that it's a big plus flavor-wise.

I'm pretty sure I've gone with 0.3% IDY for the 2 days in the past, but I'd have to look at old threads to remind myself.

Sean

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 07:01:43 AM »
Sean, that looks about right.  If you've got the time, always go with the 2 day ferment.

Try to find out how much yeast you've used in the past, since your environmental variables will be a bit different than mine. I use .5% yeast, but, my yeast is old.  Use whatever will double your dough in that 2 day time frame.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 07:29:44 AM by scott123 »

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 12:53:56 AM »
Didn't end up getting home til around midnight, so it looks like it'll be somewhere between a 1.5-2 day ferment.

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (.35%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (2%):
Total (167.35%):
307.79 g  |  10.86 oz | 0.68 lbs
193.91 g  |  6.84 oz | 0.43 lbs
1.08 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
6.16 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
6.16 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
515.09 g | 18.17 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.0714

I mixed/kneaded the dough until it was past the cottage cheese stage, and easier to handle.  Then I divided it and balled it.  It was well before window pane, but had a much smoother look than my usual 66% AT dough balls that are still quite sticky.

I'll try to add some pics as this develops.

Sean

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 03:36:51 PM »
Sean, sorry, I missed something.  The 63% hydration was for All Trumps, which has an absorption value of 63.  Full Strength is probably in the 58-60 absorption value realm.  63 won't ruin your pizza, but it might not be quite as crisp with the extra water.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 04:42:44 PM »
Ah, no worries - this will be a starting point.  Given the formula I used, do you think my amount of kneading mixing was overdoing it? 

Next time I'll try something down in the 58-60 range...

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 05:48:52 PM »
When you look at a graph of gluten development during mixing, the peak, for higher gluten flours, is a fairly long plateau.  The higher percentage of protein in the flour, the higher the plateau, the higher the gluten potential.  When you're working with the highest gluten flours like All Trumps, you have to be careful, because if you hit that highest mark, the crust has a tendency to be tough and leathery, so you have to aim for pre-peak, which is a very small kneading target. As you dial the protein back, the gluten potential drops, so hitting peak development is fine.  I can knead All Trumps for 2 minutes and the crust will be tender, but if I hit 3, I risk toughness, while I can knead my 13ish blend for anywhere between 3 and 8 minutes and the results will be similar.  Besides not wanting to knead any longer than I have to, I tend to think there might be a slight advantage for a dough to reach it's peak gluten development during cold fermentation, so I still knead until the dough is pre-window pane, but if I did, for any reason, knead it a bit longer, with lower protein flours/blends, there's no cause for concern.  Lower protein doughs are much more forgiving in that aspect.  At least, 13ish flours are.  As you keep going down on the protein spectrum, the plateau becomes a spike, and, as you keep kneading, the gluten starts breaking down further and further- but that's only when you drop below 11%. 12-13% flours give you a pretty wide kneading target to shoot for.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 06:04:29 PM »
Very informative, thank you!

My instincts, which are mostly based on reading things you and pete-zza have said on this topic, told me that I'd be safe and that it was a factor of the protein content.  I remembered you warning me and others about 14% flour and leathery toughness due to over-kneading, and thought that maybe this 13% area would be a bit more forgiving. 

I guess I'm still not sure on how hydration factors into this all.  You've mentioned that a lower hydration would yield a crispier result.  I remember earlier on you were saying that higher hydration would result in better oven spring.  What do you think I could expect to see if I drop my current Full Strength recipe from 63% to 58%?

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2011, 06:37:21 PM »
Sean, I've always been an advocate of relatively high hydration, high heat and short bakes. Up until recently I've been under the impression that there is no free lunch when it comes to oven spring- that the crispiness achieved from lowering the hydration will give you just as much of an oven spring hit as the crispiness achieved by longer bakes. Longer bakes = slower steam expansion, and, less water = less steam for expansion.  Now that I've seen relatively fast baked, relatively crispy pies with good spring, I'm not so sure that lower hydrations sacrifices as much spring as I had previously thought. It also takes a load of energy to boil water, so perhaps my higher hydrations (AV plus 5) are so high that they might be a wet blanket on the oven spring party.  I'm certain this is the case if you go high enough with the hydration, but I'm not absolutely certain about the realm surrounding the absorption value.

Neapolitan bakes involve such a violent heat/steam reaction that they can achieve phenomenal spring at very low hydrations. Regardless of my uncertainty of hydrations surrounding the absorption value, I'm fairly confident, that, as you drop below AV minus 5, the crumb tightens.

In other words, with a lower hydration, you'll have a crispier crust with the same bake time, but I'm not entirely certain that you'll lose a great deal of spring. I would recommend maybe starting with 60 and then moving to 58 after that, though.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2011, 09:54:38 PM »
I see, so I'm currently at AV + 3-5% for the Full Strength? 

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2011, 01:47:07 PM »
So yesterday's bake went great!  I'll post up some pics as soon as I get them. 

I stuck with exclusively 4 minute bakes for 8 pies and they all came out great.  In a couple instances the edges were a little less done than I might have gone for, but certainly in a range that is still fine. 

I ended up just doing the sort of neo-ny fresh mozz and pecorrino romano again for this batch only because I wasn't sure I wanted to try freezing Grande.  Looking forward to trying this out with Grande in future pies.

I tried Stanislaus Tomato Magic this time which I'm guessing is essentially the same as 6 in 1 from Escalon without consulting the comparison chart.  I loved the 6 in 1 last time and Tomato Magic was very similar and I enjoyed it just the same.

The .07 TF was thinner than I've gone as of yet, and it was great.

The Full Strength ~13% was nice in that I feel like it did yield a more tender crust on the edges.  I just ate some leftovers out of the fridge and the edges were still soft and chewy with no leather going on at all.

No other real findings to report at this time.


 

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