Author Topic: Joe's on Carmine St.  (Read 20736 times)

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Offline PizzaSean

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Joe's on Carmine St.
« on: October 04, 2011, 01:07:04 AM »
Hey everybody,

I'd love to make a pie like Joe's on Carmine St.  I've tried using the search function to see if anyone has collected any info on them before and the only thing I seemed to find was that they were running their deck ovens at 550F. 

That alone is interesting since they get quite a bit of char on their the underside and edge of their crusts... perhaps because it is so thin?

I'd guess they are down in the .07 range for TF, and my super novice guess would be something like AT flour, just since I know it's very popular in the NY pizzerias.  No idea how to judge hydration though others on here seem to do it quite readily!  Have a look....   old video... hasn't been 2.25 since when I first went there like 10 years ago or something...

I love their sauce/cheese flavor and would love to capture that, but have no idea what's going on there. 

Any thoughts would be super helpful!

Sean


scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 06:26:47 AM »
It's been quite a few years since I've had Joes, but, if memory serves me correctly, it didn't have the level of chewiness that one normally finds with fully developed All Trump doughs.  You can get a tender crust if you underknead All Trumps, but, watching the video, I don't think they're working with an underkneaded dough.  All Trumps (or other 14% bromated flour) tends to be the industry standard, though, so maybe they are using it and the tenderness is coming from the oven spring and thickness factor (or maybe additional oil).  I would try two flours- bromated All Trumps and bromated 13% flour (King Midas Special, Spring King, Full Strength, etc).

The cheese is going to be Grande, and it's less than other pizzerias. On an 18" pie, that could translate into 10 oz. of cheese. They're renowned for being stingy with their cheese, though, so if you're making this at home, I'd use more.

From watching the stretching that they're doing in the video, I'm pretty certain that you're dealing with a mid hydration dough- at or close to the absorption value.  For All Trumps, this would probably mean 62-64%

Sean, don't get too caught up with oven temps.  A typical home oven at 550 is not the same as a deck oven at 550 because of the lack of thermal mass. Think about how quickly things cook while boiling at 212 versus baking at 212.  Different materials, different heat transfer, different ball game. The only consistent way of looking at pizza baking is by time- a 4 minute pie in a pizzeria will match a 4 minute bake at home.  I would say this is a 4-5 minute bake- and not a done at 3 minute bake and then pushed a minute longer for extra charring like you might find at a coal place. Joes might have a tiny bit of char, but it isn't much.

NY tradition has been same day or overnight ferments.  Since Joes crust has never struck me as being one dimensional in flavor, I'm leaning towards overnight. With the number of pies they sell, I have a hard time picturing them having the room for that much walk-in space, so I think we're talking about a room temp overnight. Like the cheese, though, you have an opportunity to do better, so don't shy away from a superior 1 or 2 day cold ferment.

The thickness factor is most definitely .07 and not a fraction more. This is one of the thinnest crust pizzas I've ever eaten. It might even be as low as .065.

Oil is a bit of toss up. My gut feeling is yes, there's oil. I would give 2% a shot.

If you cold ferment for a day or longer, then I'd omit the sugar.  If you do an overnight, then I'd add 1% sugar.

This is a pretty well kneaded dough. I wouldn't take it (or any dough) to window pane, but I'd go pretty close to smooth for an overnight and halfway between smooth and cottage cheese for cold ferments.

The sauce adheres pretty closely to my sauce philosophy- everything augments the tomato, nothing overpowers it.  If you're going to add oregano, it should be just a pinch.  Sugar, sure, just enough to offset the sourness of the tomatoes. Garlic, a little bit.

To be honest, I think one of the big reasons why you don't see any reverse engineering threads on Joe's is that there's no information out there to glean anything from.  We can make a lot of educated guesses and come close, but without any videos of the dough being made, we're kind of flying blind.

Speaking of videos, the way the dough seems to handle, the thickness factor and the look of the finished pie all remind me a bit of Luigi's in San Diego.  I would take a look at that thread.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2011, 10:50:37 AM »
Thanks, Scott!  Helpful as always...

I'm not sure that Corrado's carries any of the 13% bromated flours, but perhaps I can do what you mentioned in a different thread and go 2:1 AT:AP flour and mix it up that way as an experiment.

I certainly see what you are saying about the oven temp being sort of irrelevant here... my main goal right now is to just figure out what type of dough will come out best given the oven setup that I do have access to.  The curiosity in Joe's is sort of a side interest to that, but since I enjoy that pizza a lot, I figured I'd look into it.

I have been skimming the Luigi's thread and will give it some more attention also!



scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2011, 11:34:25 AM »
Sure thing, Sean.

I've yet to make the trip, but I'm pretty certain that Dawn Foods in Edison carries one of the 13% bromated flours, although blending AT with AP will work.

Where are you at with your current bake time?  You've been doing pretty dark pies, right?

If you want, I could put together a few permutations to test, but, you might want to save yourself some work and see where Mike gets with his Luigi and/or Avellino clone (another Joe-ish pizza), since he's going to be working with steel plate soon. Tweaking his recipe to make it a bit more Joe-like would most likely be easier than starting from scratch.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2011, 02:27:49 PM »
I actually must confess that I have no exact current bake time figure.  If I had to guess, I'd estimate 6-7 minutes to get them dark like this http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14708.0;attach=39408;image

I'm wondering if a more mid hydration dough with a .07ish TF would bake a little faster on my setup.  I've been getting the soapstone up to 600F give or take a little by pushing the oven to 550F and running the broiler.  I can also start to just pull them out when they are a lighter doneness, because I enjoy pizza like that, as well.  See if maybe the results are better...


Is Dawn Foods open to the public?  Any advantage to going with the 13% bromated flour straight instead of doing the 2:1 AT/AP?  I'm guessing having all of the flour being bromated instead of just 2/3 is a plus side of the real stuff...

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2011, 02:46:49 PM »
When I called Dawn Foods last year, they said they were cash and carry (open to the public).  2/1 does dilute the bromate, so, yes, 13% protein bromated flour would be better in that regard.

How long are you pre-heating the soapstone for? I think a 550 preheat sounds about right for Joes.  With that thickness factor, it might end up being as little as 4 minutes, but that should be close to Joes.  I would try 550, then 525.


Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2011, 04:21:29 PM »
The last time I heated it up, it seemed to get to temp in about an hour.  I usually give it at least 1.5 hours because I never realized it came up to speed that quickly. 

Good to know about Dawn Foods... I might give that a try since I had to ditch the last tiny bit of my AT do to a little kitchen mishap.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2011, 05:50:16 PM »
Hey Scott and all -

Just updating that I picked up a bag of Full Strength today from Dawn Foods in Edison.  It was 19.85 and about an hour wait... they apologized and I can't tell you if this is standard.  On the phone they said allow 2 hours to fill the order, so I wasn't expecting to have to wait an additional hour on top of that there - some apologies about being understaffed, etc. . .

Excited to see how it works out this weekend or at the last next Tues.

Sean

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2011, 06:11:49 PM »
An hour wait?!?!  That's insane.  Still, as far as I know, Dawn is one of the few places that has a wide selection of flours. Perhaps I could call ahead?

Horrible shopping experience aside, that's great that you scored some Full Strength.  I think you should be very pleased with it.


Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2011, 01:52:15 AM »
Well - as I said it seems to have been extenuating circumstances... one of the customers ahead of me had apparently gotten into a tough spot and had to place an enormous order with them and they said they were understaffed in the warehouse at that time on top of it. 

In their favor, as soon as the gentleman with the enormous order decided to cut his losses at a 2 hour wait and come back the next morning, the other person waiting was given an invoice immediately and I was given mine a minute later. 

Against their favor - we were told to go to the ramp and someone would be out with our products and bring them right to the car.  After waiting ANOTHER long while (we were desensitized by this point) I decided to walk back over to the office and ask what was up.  She told me she'd call them again and at that point the warehouse door opened, a guy asked what we needed and we each had our very simple orders filled in about 1 minute tops.  Why we weren't driving away a long time earlier?  Not sure....

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2011, 02:05:56 AM »
And yes - calling ahead is required by them, they told me they wanted a 2 hour lead time for all orders.  This may be enough on a normal day, but I know for sure that I'll be giving more like a 4 hour lead time if I need to refill the Full Strength.

Looking forward to trying it out... without aiming to clone Joe's or anything, but using that as sort of a guide what do you think of this:

TF .07
h2o 63%
oil 2%
salt 2%
IDY ??

Haven't decided on overnight/2 day, but I'm leaning to 2-day because I'm used to it and I know a lot of people agree that it's a big plus flavor-wise.

I'm pretty sure I've gone with 0.3% IDY for the 2 days in the past, but I'd have to look at old threads to remind myself.

Sean

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 07:01:43 AM »
Sean, that looks about right.  If you've got the time, always go with the 2 day ferment.

Try to find out how much yeast you've used in the past, since your environmental variables will be a bit different than mine. I use .5% yeast, but, my yeast is old.  Use whatever will double your dough in that 2 day time frame.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 07:29:44 AM by scott123 »

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 12:53:56 AM »
Didn't end up getting home til around midnight, so it looks like it'll be somewhere between a 1.5-2 day ferment.

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (.35%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (2%):
Total (167.35%):
307.79 g  |  10.86 oz | 0.68 lbs
193.91 g  |  6.84 oz | 0.43 lbs
1.08 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
6.16 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
6.16 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
515.09 g | 18.17 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.0714

I mixed/kneaded the dough until it was past the cottage cheese stage, and easier to handle.  Then I divided it and balled it.  It was well before window pane, but had a much smoother look than my usual 66% AT dough balls that are still quite sticky.

I'll try to add some pics as this develops.

Sean

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 03:36:51 PM »
Sean, sorry, I missed something.  The 63% hydration was for All Trumps, which has an absorption value of 63.  Full Strength is probably in the 58-60 absorption value realm.  63 won't ruin your pizza, but it might not be quite as crisp with the extra water.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 04:42:44 PM »
Ah, no worries - this will be a starting point.  Given the formula I used, do you think my amount of kneading mixing was overdoing it? 

Next time I'll try something down in the 58-60 range...

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 05:48:52 PM »
When you look at a graph of gluten development during mixing, the peak, for higher gluten flours, is a fairly long plateau.  The higher percentage of protein in the flour, the higher the plateau, the higher the gluten potential.  When you're working with the highest gluten flours like All Trumps, you have to be careful, because if you hit that highest mark, the crust has a tendency to be tough and leathery, so you have to aim for pre-peak, which is a very small kneading target. As you dial the protein back, the gluten potential drops, so hitting peak development is fine.  I can knead All Trumps for 2 minutes and the crust will be tender, but if I hit 3, I risk toughness, while I can knead my 13ish blend for anywhere between 3 and 8 minutes and the results will be similar.  Besides not wanting to knead any longer than I have to, I tend to think there might be a slight advantage for a dough to reach it's peak gluten development during cold fermentation, so I still knead until the dough is pre-window pane, but if I did, for any reason, knead it a bit longer, with lower protein flours/blends, there's no cause for concern.  Lower protein doughs are much more forgiving in that aspect.  At least, 13ish flours are.  As you keep going down on the protein spectrum, the plateau becomes a spike, and, as you keep kneading, the gluten starts breaking down further and further- but that's only when you drop below 11%. 12-13% flours give you a pretty wide kneading target to shoot for.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 06:04:29 PM »
Very informative, thank you!

My instincts, which are mostly based on reading things you and pete-zza have said on this topic, told me that I'd be safe and that it was a factor of the protein content.  I remembered you warning me and others about 14% flour and leathery toughness due to over-kneading, and thought that maybe this 13% area would be a bit more forgiving. 

I guess I'm still not sure on how hydration factors into this all.  You've mentioned that a lower hydration would yield a crispier result.  I remember earlier on you were saying that higher hydration would result in better oven spring.  What do you think I could expect to see if I drop my current Full Strength recipe from 63% to 58%?


scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2011, 06:37:21 PM »
Sean, I've always been an advocate of relatively high hydration, high heat and short bakes. Up until recently I've been under the impression that there is no free lunch when it comes to oven spring- that the crispiness achieved from lowering the hydration will give you just as much of an oven spring hit as the crispiness achieved by longer bakes. Longer bakes = slower steam expansion, and, less water = less steam for expansion.  Now that I've seen relatively fast baked, relatively crispy pies with good spring, I'm not so sure that lower hydrations sacrifices as much spring as I had previously thought. It also takes a load of energy to boil water, so perhaps my higher hydrations (AV plus 5) are so high that they might be a wet blanket on the oven spring party.  I'm certain this is the case if you go high enough with the hydration, but I'm not absolutely certain about the realm surrounding the absorption value.

Neapolitan bakes involve such a violent heat/steam reaction that they can achieve phenomenal spring at very low hydrations. Regardless of my uncertainty of hydrations surrounding the absorption value, I'm fairly confident, that, as you drop below AV minus 5, the crumb tightens.

In other words, with a lower hydration, you'll have a crispier crust with the same bake time, but I'm not entirely certain that you'll lose a great deal of spring. I would recommend maybe starting with 60 and then moving to 58 after that, though.

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2011, 09:54:38 PM »
I see, so I'm currently at AV + 3-5% for the Full Strength? 

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2011, 01:47:07 PM »
So yesterday's bake went great!  I'll post up some pics as soon as I get them. 

I stuck with exclusively 4 minute bakes for 8 pies and they all came out great.  In a couple instances the edges were a little less done than I might have gone for, but certainly in a range that is still fine. 

I ended up just doing the sort of neo-ny fresh mozz and pecorrino romano again for this batch only because I wasn't sure I wanted to try freezing Grande.  Looking forward to trying this out with Grande in future pies.

I tried Stanislaus Tomato Magic this time which I'm guessing is essentially the same as 6 in 1 from Escalon without consulting the comparison chart.  I loved the 6 in 1 last time and Tomato Magic was very similar and I enjoyed it just the same.

The .07 TF was thinner than I've gone as of yet, and it was great.

The Full Strength ~13% was nice in that I feel like it did yield a more tender crust on the edges.  I just ate some leftovers out of the fridge and the edges were still soft and chewy with no leather going on at all.

No other real findings to report at this time.

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2011, 08:44:08 AM »
Sounds great, Sean.  Would love to see some pictures if you get a chance. How was this crust received versus your previous ones? Was it at all crunchy?  Did it brown well?

What temp are you preheating the soapstone to for these 4 minute bakes?  I've done 6 pies on soapstone in one setting, but never 8. How's the recovery time?

I did a little digging on Full Strength's AV and came up with nothing.  Maybe Peter has a figure.  My best guess is 58-60, so, yes, that would put you at AV + 3-5.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2011, 10:12:50 AM »
I did a little digging on Full Strength's AV and came up with nothing.  Maybe Peter has a figure.

scott123,

I'm glad you asked.

A few years ago, member November privately gave me a tool to use to calculate how much hydration a flour can withstand when you don't know the rated absorption value. I happened to stumble across his PM recently where he gave me the tool while I was looking for something else. I was waiting for a chance to try out the tool. Here is the calculation:

Ph = 24 Ln Pp + 2 Ln Pf - Ln (Pm - 10) + 1

where

Ph is the hydration (baker's) percentage,
Pp is the protein percentage of the flour,
Pf is the (dietary) fiber percentage of the flour, and
Pm is the moisture level of the flour

November said that the formula "was based a logarithmic regression of values obtained for a number of flours ranging in levels of 8-15% protein". He also said that the last item in the equation (the moisture component) can be ignored without changing the value of Ph by that much.

So, using the specs for the GM Full Strength flour at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FULL%20STRENGTH%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf and using the online scientific calculator at http://www.calculator-tab.com/, I came up with a value of Ph of 62.55% (I used a value of 12.6 for Pp, a value of 2.9 for Pf and a value of 14 for Pm). Since this value is supposed to represent how much hydration a flour can withstand, and knowing how flours typically have a +/- 2% variation, taking this into account would give us a value of 60.55% that perhaps can safely be used as an absorption value.

November gave me examples of values of Ph for several King Arthur flours and they were very close to the numbers I have found and used even though he used some generic numbers from the nutritiondata.self.com for some of the flours. So, the above value of Ph is perhaps a safe value to use.

Peter

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2011, 12:15:36 PM »
Thanks, Scott!  Pics coming soon, I hope.  Not sure how many were taken as I never get involved with that when I'm making pizza.

As for the 8 pies, it worked out great - I can't speak scientifically about the temp after each bake for this night because I was only checking the temp periodically.  It seemed to be 650 in spots at its hottest and usually centered around 600F. 

On this particular night we had guests earlier and then kinda powered stuff down for a couple hours and then made the other 4 pies later since we had some more people coming late, so that also affects things.  But in the past I've done 10 pies in a night on the soapstone and had one pie in after another at times.  Now that I'm focusing more on 4 minute bakes specifically, I may find that I have to be a little bit more conscientious about recovery times and things like that.

One other interesting observation is that there were certain pies that seemed to get a little bit more crisp on the bottom crust... perhaps associated with a more recovered stone surface?

Everything was well received!


And Peter - --

Thank you so much for the time put in on that formula for this situation!  Interesting that the center value you came up with was 62.55% and I ended up doing 63% based on originally a miscommunication between Scott and me. 


Sean

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2011, 05:10:12 PM »
Peter, while I appreciate November's attempts to use math to create order from chaos, I don't think there's a one size fits all equation. On more than one occasion, you've talked about All Trumps having an AV of 63%.  Is that an official number?  There's no way that AT, at 14% protein, can be at 63% AV while Full Strength, at 12.6% protein, could be 63% as well. And then there's Pendleton quoting Power Flour at 65% AV.  We know it isn't quite that high from the way it performs, but regardless of where it actually falls, it still doesn't fit neatly into November's equation.

I'm not saying the equation is worthless- it's a valuable tool. I just would like an official number as well, if it exists.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2011, 08:00:33 PM »
scott123,

One of the hardest numbers to get out of millers is the rated absorption values for their flours. For example, General Mills does not quote rated absorption values for their flours. King Arthur is one of the few that does for its professional flours, as you can see at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html, but not at the retail level. A few years ago, I called King Arthur to try to get the absorption values for the King Arthur all-purpose flour and the King Arthur bread flour, as I noted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4646.msg39204/topicseen.html#msg39204. On several occasions in discussions with other millers beyond the two mentioned I asked for such values and was either told that they didn't know or would have to check and get back to me.

I also take into account the fact that the "operational absorption rate" can be a few percent higher than the rated absorption value. That aspect is discussed in the last paragraph of the abovereferenced post. In the above example with the Superlative flour, I was treating the 62.55% value as the operational value and the 60.55% value as the "rated" absorption value. In November's PM to me, the values of Ph that he gave me represented the hydration a given flour can "withstand" in the absence of knowing what the rated absorption value of the flour is. If November's equation can get me into the ballpark when I don't know the rated absorption value of a given flour but have the input values to the equation, that will make me happy.

In another example that November gave me, he cited a Ph value for the KASL flour of 65.43%. He used a Pf value of 2.4 for that flour, which is not the exact value, and he did not consider the effect of the moisture content of the flour in his calculation. The correct value of Pf for the KASL flour is 2.81% (see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/nutritional-analysis-bakery-flour.html). Re-doing the calculation, I get a value for Ph for the KASL flour of 65.36%. As I understand what November was telling me, that would be the operational value, and the "rated" absorption value would be 2% less, or 63.36%. Using the GM specs for the All Trumps high-gluten flour at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/ALL%20TRUMPS%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf, I get a value for Ph of 65.42% for the All Trumps flour. Subtracting 2% from that number, I get a "rated" operational value of 63.42%. I don't recall where I got the 63% number for the All Trumps flour but it was not from GM.

There must be a good reason for millers not wanting to unilaterally and willingly cite rated absorption values. As you know, there are all kinds of things that can affect how a given flour is hydrated. I tried to address many of these factors in the post at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12211.msg115225.html#msg115225. I might add that when I talked to the flour expert at Pendleton Mills about the Power flour, he made a point to emphasize that the rated absorption value given in their specs was in relation to a moisture content of the flour of 14%. However, that value can change once the flour leaves the mill, enters the distribution channel, and ends up being stored somewhere until delivered to the end user. You will note from Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151643/topicseen.html#msg151643 that I queried the Pendleton flour expert on the 65% rated absorption value for the Power flour, especially when viewed against other flours with higher protein levels. According to him, it is the type of grain used to make the Power flour and where it is grown.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For the most recent link to the GM All Trumps flour, see http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-flour-50-lb/50111000
EDIT (9/26/14): For the Wayback Machine version of the KA spec sheet, see http://web.archive.org/web/20121104053110/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html