Author Topic: Joe's on Carmine St.  (Read 15001 times)

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Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2011, 08:44:08 AM »
Sounds great, Sean.  Would love to see some pictures if you get a chance. How was this crust received versus your previous ones? Was it at all crunchy?  Did it brown well?

What temp are you preheating the soapstone to for these 4 minute bakes?  I've done 6 pies on soapstone in one setting, but never 8. How's the recovery time?

I did a little digging on Full Strength's AV and came up with nothing.  Maybe Peter has a figure.  My best guess is 58-60, so, yes, that would put you at AV + 3-5.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2011, 10:12:50 AM »
I did a little digging on Full Strength's AV and came up with nothing.  Maybe Peter has a figure.


scott123,

I'm glad you asked.

A few years ago, member November privately gave me a tool to use to calculate how much hydration a flour can withstand when you don't know the rated absorption value. I happened to stumble across his PM recently where he gave me the tool while I was looking for something else. I was waiting for a chance to try out the tool. Here is the calculation:

Ph = 24 Ln Pp + 2 Ln Pf - Ln (Pm - 10) + 1

where

Ph is the hydration (baker's) percentage,
Pp is the protein percentage of the flour,
Pf is the (dietary) fiber percentage of the flour, and
Pm is the moisture level of the flour

November said that the formula "was based a logarithmic regression of values obtained for a number of flours ranging in levels of 8-15% protein". He also said that the last item in the equation (the moisture component) can be ignored without changing the value of Ph by that much.

So, using the specs for the GM Full Strength flour at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/FULL%20STRENGTH%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf and using the online scientific calculator at http://www.calculator-tab.com/, I came up with a value of Ph of 62.55% (I used a value of 12.6 for Pp, a value of 2.9 for Pf and a value of 14 for Pm). Since this value is supposed to represent how much hydration a flour can withstand, and knowing how flours typically have a +/- 2% variation, taking this into account would give us a value of 60.55% that perhaps can safely be used as an absorption value.

November gave me examples of values of Ph for several King Arthur flours and they were very close to the numbers I have found and used even though he used some generic numbers from the nutritiondata.self.com for some of the flours. So, the above value of Ph is perhaps a safe value to use.

Peter

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2011, 12:15:36 PM »
Thanks, Scott!  Pics coming soon, I hope.  Not sure how many were taken as I never get involved with that when I'm making pizza.

As for the 8 pies, it worked out great - I can't speak scientifically about the temp after each bake for this night because I was only checking the temp periodically.  It seemed to be 650 in spots at its hottest and usually centered around 600F. 

On this particular night we had guests earlier and then kinda powered stuff down for a couple hours and then made the other 4 pies later since we had some more people coming late, so that also affects things.  But in the past I've done 10 pies in a night on the soapstone and had one pie in after another at times.  Now that I'm focusing more on 4 minute bakes specifically, I may find that I have to be a little bit more conscientious about recovery times and things like that.

One other interesting observation is that there were certain pies that seemed to get a little bit more crisp on the bottom crust... perhaps associated with a more recovered stone surface?

Everything was well received!


And Peter - --

Thank you so much for the time put in on that formula for this situation!  Interesting that the center value you came up with was 62.55% and I ended up doing 63% based on originally a miscommunication between Scott and me. 


Sean

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2011, 05:10:12 PM »
Peter, while I appreciate November's attempts to use math to create order from chaos, I don't think there's a one size fits all equation. On more than one occasion, you've talked about All Trumps having an AV of 63%.  Is that an official number?  There's no way that AT, at 14% protein, can be at 63% AV while Full Strength, at 12.6% protein, could be 63% as well. And then there's Pendleton quoting Power Flour at 65% AV.  We know it isn't quite that high from the way it performs, but regardless of where it actually falls, it still doesn't fit neatly into November's equation.

I'm not saying the equation is worthless- it's a valuable tool. I just would like an official number as well, if it exists.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2011, 08:00:33 PM »
scott123,

One of the hardest numbers to get out of millers is the rated absorption values for their flours. For example, General Mills does not quote rated absorption values for their flours. King Arthur is one of the few that does for its professional flours, as you can see at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html, but not at the retail level. A few years ago, I called King Arthur to try to get the absorption values for the King Arthur all-purpose flour and the King Arthur bread flour, as I noted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4646.msg39204/topicseen.html#msg39204. On several occasions in discussions with other millers beyond the two mentioned I asked for such values and was either told that they didn't know or would have to check and get back to me.

I also take into account the fact that the "operational absorption rate" can be a few percent higher than the rated absorption value. That aspect is discussed in the last paragraph of the abovereferenced post. In the above example with the Superlative flour, I was treating the 62.55% value as the operational value and the 60.55% value as the "rated" absorption value. In November's PM to me, the values of Ph that he gave me represented the hydration a given flour can "withstand" in the absence of knowing what the rated absorption value of the flour is. If November's equation can get me into the ballpark when I don't know the rated absorption value of a given flour but have the input values to the equation, that will make me happy.

In another example that November gave me, he cited a Ph value for the KASL flour of 65.43%. He used a Pf value of 2.4 for that flour, which is not the exact value, and he did not consider the effect of the moisture content of the flour in his calculation. The correct value of Pf for the KASL flour is 2.81% (see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/nutritional-analysis-bakery-flour.html). Re-doing the calculation, I get a value for Ph for the KASL flour of 65.36%. As I understand what November was telling me, that would be the operational value, and the "rated" absorption value would be 2% less, or 63.36%. Using the GM specs for the All Trumps high-gluten flour at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/ALL%20TRUMPS%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf, I get a value for Ph of 65.42% for the All Trumps flour. Subtracting 2% from that number, I get a "rated" operational value of 63.42%. I don't recall where I got the 63% number for the All Trumps flour but it was not from GM.

There must be a good reason for millers not wanting to unilaterally and willingly cite rated absorption values. As you know, there are all kinds of things that can affect how a given flour is hydrated. I tried to address many of these factors in the post at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12211.msg115225.html#msg115225. I might add that when I talked to the flour expert at Pendleton Mills about the Power flour, he made a point to emphasize that the rated absorption value given in their specs was in relation to a moisture content of the flour of 14%. However, that value can change once the flour leaves the mill, enters the distribution channel, and ends up being stored somewhere until delivered to the end user. You will note from Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151643/topicseen.html#msg151643 that I queried the Pendleton flour expert on the 65% rated absorption value for the Power flour, especially when viewed against other flours with higher protein levels. According to him, it is the type of grain used to make the Power flour and where it is grown.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For the most recent link to the GM All Trumps flour, see http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-flour-50-lb/50111000

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2011, 08:20:52 PM »
Peter, with the clarifying statements and the persuasive arguments you made, I was just about to completely acquiesce to your entire line of reasoning.  And then I read this:  ;D

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg157122.html#msg157122

How does this fit into November's equation? Mondako, at 12.5% protein, has a 'published' AV of 55% and Power flour, at 13.5%, has an AV of 65%?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2011, 08:57:16 PM »
scott123,

Hahaha.

I think there was a miscommunication somewhere. If you look at page 8 of the Pendleton booklet at http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf, you will see that the rated absorption value for the Mondako flour is 62%, not 55%. Also, the Mondako flour has a protein content of 11.9%, not 12.5%. Maybe Norma can get clarification on the numbers. I know that Pendleton sells a pizza flour mix under the Mondako name, as indicated at http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-pizza-mix-products-19.php, but I wouldn't think that such a mix would have an absorption value of 55% either.

I took a stab at calculating a Ph value for the Pendleton Power flour at Reply 537 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg157114.html#msg157114. I had to guess at the value for Pf for that flour.

Peter

« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 09:00:32 PM by Pete-zza »

Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2011, 09:20:22 PM »
Alright, Peter, that being the case, I'm entirely on board.  Ph is a little too similar to Ph (level of acidity), but I can live with it.  From this point forward, I'm coining the acronym CAV (calculated absorption value).  It may not be perfectly exact, but, for flour companies that don't publish absorption values (or for companies that publish absorption values that are a bit outside the norm), it will be a useful tool for switching between flours.

Anyone up for putting together an absorption value calculation tool?  ;D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2011, 09:36:54 PM »
Anyone up for putting together an absorption value calculation tool?  ;D

scott123,

Originally it was November's intention to create the tool, which he planned to call a Hydration Calculator. But, the pressures of his job prevented him from doing so. As it is, the man gets very little sleep. Since the tool is November's, he should be the one to decide on whether and how it should be implemented.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 09:59:33 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2011, 07:44:48 AM »
Anyone up for putting together an absorption value calculation tool?  ;D

Inventory: (1) bell, (2) whistles.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2011, 09:23:52 AM »
See the Tool Selection pull-down menu at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, where November has added a Hydration Calculator. I wiil start a new thread to announce the new tool later today.

Thank you, November. The new tool is much appreciated.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2011, 09:52:35 AM »
Inventory: (1) bell, (2) whistles.

Thank you November!

Norma
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Online scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2011, 03:28:27 PM »
Yes, indeed, thanks.  That's fantastic having a tool that can do that.

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2011, 03:31:35 PM »
Sean, I found an interesting reference to Joe's in an old article posted in another thread:

http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2911&page=1

Quote
JOE'S PIZZA Giuseppi Vitale, who owns Joe's with his father-in-law, Pino Pozzuoli, mastered the art of dough-making at the G&G Bakery in Brooklyn. He is a slice purist: no heroes or pasta are served in his restaurants. Mr. Vitale says his motto is "pride, knowledge and ingredients." It's worth it to have both a regular slice and a fresh mozzarella slice here, just to taste the difference. They both have superbly crisp crust. 233 Bleecker Street (Carmine Street), Greenwich Village, (212) 366-1182, and 7 Carmine Street (Avenue of the Americas) in the Village, (212) 255-3946.


I have to admit, the bakery experience is interesting.  There's a lot of bakeries that do same day doughs for everything, but it could translate into a willingness for Joe's to go outside the norm with an extended ferment. Maybe. It's been years since I've been there, but I recall it was a very flavorful crust.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 03:49:01 PM by scott123 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2011, 05:03:10 PM »
Sean,

If you are interested, I was at Joe’s a little less than a year ago.  Peter asked the question about why I didn’t say much about Joe’s pizza at Reply 50 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12388.msg117830.html#msg117830   I posted pictures of Joe’s at Reply 25 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12388.msg117788.html#msg117788  and pictures of Joe’s pizza I bought at Reply 30 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12388.msg117793.html#msg117793  and Reply 34 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12388.msg117799.html#msg117799 I answered Peter at Reply 52 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12388.msg117836.html#msg117836  and Scott 123 posted at Reply 70 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12388.msg117898.html#msg117898 and I followed up my Reply to Scott 123 in the next post. 

I know I might have gone to Joe’s on a day that the pizza wasn’t done right.  I have seen comments on Joe’s since then on Slice and those comments were fine.  I never said this before but the crust on the pizza I ate was so bad I threw it in the trash.  That is one thing I hardly ever do.  I told Steve about that and he just laughed and said the crust had to be bad for me to throw it in the trash. 

I think with all Scott 123’s help you will be able to make a much better pizza than I had at Joe’s.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2011, 11:21:48 PM »
Norma -

Thanks for all the links!  It is too bad that you didn't have a great experience there.  I have had slices that were great and slices that were okay there, so I can attest to the fact that it's not always at peak performance.  That said, the thing that has places like Joe's on my mind so much and keeps me coming back is just how much of a wonderful pizza aroma they get coming off their pies and even out into the street.  For some reason it seems few and far between that a pizza place can just drag you in off the street with their smell.  A lot of times when I'm not sure about a new place, I'll just walk in for a minute, sniff the air, look at the pies and make my decision like that haha... I guess that's the plus side of having a lot to choose from, even if a lot of it is not great.

And I agree that with the help of scott123 I'll be doing quite well!  He's becoming a household name around here...

Scott-

Thanks for the article, I can't read it right now, but I'm looking forward to it.



Pics coming!

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2013, 03:32:30 AM »
Sean,

I know this thread has been inactive for awhile but I'm trying to do a clone of a Joe's "good day" dough for a new pizzeria in Mexico City. I've already tried a bunch of other NY style recipes from PMF and other websites but after 12 visits to new york and over 40 pizzerias I believe that a Joe-ish type of dough is what Mexico City is really looking for in a pizza and can't (even remotely) get. I'm doing one to two tests per week and would be happy to post all my results with pictures as well as dough formultations and oven setup if you're interested. Let me know!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2013, 09:15:18 AM »
I'm doing one to two tests per week and would be happy to post all my results with pictures as well as dough formultations and oven setup if you're interested. Let me know!
Paulo,

I'm sure our members would be very interested in seeing your results to date.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2013, 10:00:21 AM »
Yes Paolo, we would love to see your pies.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 10:05:56 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2013, 01:49:27 PM »
Great, I'll start doing a weekly posting of pics and info this weekend. Any feedback or recommendations will be greatly appreciated!