Author Topic: Joe's on Carmine St.  (Read 16228 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2013, 02:25:29 PM »
Wow you see how light they went on that shredded mozz in that first pie?
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.


Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2013, 02:53:41 PM »
Pythonic,

I've been to a lot of slice joints around NYC and have never seen anyone else put as little low-moisture mozz on a pie as Joe's. But it somehow works, the crust is super thin and more cheese might throw off the slice's balance, but that's just my opinion. Getting Grande cheese down to mexico city (me being their only customer in the country) is very expensive so I may have to take a page from Joe's book and go extra light on the cheese!

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2013, 03:18:40 AM »
This dough formulation was made using a mixture of one user's observations of Joe's dough, my own judgement after much reading for a relatively small amount of yeast, and various opinions from various threads concerning kneading and proofing/fermenting techniques.

Flour (100%):        269.92 g  |  9.52 oz | 0.6 lbs
Water (62%):        167.35 g  |  5.9 oz | 0.37 lbs
Cake Yeast (.5%): 1.35 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs |
Salt (1.8%):        4.86 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Oil (2%):                5.4 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Total (166.3%):       448.88 g | 15.83 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = 0.07
Single Ball:       224.44 g | 7.92 oz | 0.49 lbs

12 inch pies, the TF is 0.07. 18 hour bulk cold ferment with a reball/2 hour individual rise before baking.

The flour I used is a "premium" mexican brand of flour called Harinas Elizondo. This is their high-gluten flour which is at 14.7%. I did three identical trials comparing this flour to some smuggled KASL and at least to my very amateur pizza palate (as well as 4 others), we couldn't taste any significant differences.

My oven setup is a standard gas oven (no broiler) which goes up to 500F with a 14x16 1/2 inch steel plate on the bottom shelf. I've left the oven unopened on max on a very hot day for an hour and a half and my IR scanner reads 529F as the max temperature. First pie is a cherry tomato, roasted garlic, basil and OO with a 4 minute bake time. Second is a garlic shrimp pie with a 3:40 bake time. As far as the crust, flavor was good (In my personal opinion cake yeast tastes better than IDY) with decent oven spring, although a little bit too chewy/leathery. I had never gotten any amount of chewiness (which I want) before but this was a little bit much. I also believe that for the specific crust I'm looking for I'm going to have to get a 1/4 inch steel plate so my pizzas will last a few minutes longer for browning and crunch purposes, as well as char reduction on the undercarriage. Not saying that there's anything wrong with a 3:40 bake time in a home oven, but it's just not what I'm looking for right now. Something looking more like this is the goal: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/02/famous-joes-pizza-greenwich-village-manhattan-nyc.html

Thank you Peter and Jackie Tran for you invitation to participate in the thread, any and all opinions are greatly appreciated!

Paulo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2013, 10:34:25 AM »
Paulo,

Your pizzas look very good and quite tasty.

Can you tell us more about how you make your dough, including the machine you used to make your dough and the mixing/kneading speeds and times? And did you note the finished dough temperature? Also, can you tell us which of the flours shown at the Harinas Elizondo website at http://www.harinaselizondo.com/productos.htm you are using? Is it the Alta Proteina flour? At 14.7% protein, if measured as it is in the U.S., that would be high for a high-protein, high-gluten flour in the U.S., where high-gluten flours tend to max out at about 14.2%. All else being equal, the 14.7% protein content of your flour, together with possible kneading issues, could account for some of the chewiness you mentioned, although there could be other factors as noted below.

If your flour is a true 14.7% flour, and assuming that there are no kneading issues, you could offset the chewiness by going to a somewhat lower protein flour, or you could blend a lower protein content flour in with your present flour. You could also increase the hydration of your present dough by a percent or two.

It also seems to me that 0.50% fresh yeast may be a bit low for an 18-hour cold fermented dough even though that quantity and the fermentation window are in line with a typical dough formulation for a NY style such as given, for example, at the PMQ Recipe bank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/.

Maybe once you provide more detail on how you make your dough, we can provide more specific guidance.

Peter

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2013, 03:50:00 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for the input and positive comments.

This batch of dough was made using the following process: Crumble fresh yeast and salt into flour and mix. Place room temperature bottled water into a Hamilton Beach Stand Mixer:
http://www.amazon.com/Hamilton-Beach-Eclectrics-63221-All-Metal/dp/B000308BUI/?tag=pizzamaking-20

The #1 speed on this mixer is very similar, if not identical to the #1 speed on a standard Kitchenaid mixer. Place half of flour into the water and on speed #1 mix for one minute using the dough hook attachment. Gradually add in the rest of the flour over the next  4 minutes while still mixing on #1. Add light olive oil (Fillipo Berio) and continue to mix on #1 for  5 minutes. Let rest for 5 minutes and then hand knead for 1 minute on a very lightly floured surface. Place into a sealed container in a 20F refrigerator. 2 hours before baking I scaled, balled and let rise at room temperature. Hand stretched to 12 inches, dressed and baked. Unfortunately my IR scanner was borrowed for the weekend and I couldn’t get the dough temperature, but I’ll make sure to get the readings for all future tests.  Also, if you think my kneading/mixing process is off I would love to hear about suggested improvements.

Yes, the flour I use is the Alta Proteína. But I’m confused, when I went to the factory the salesperson who sold it to me said 14.7%, but on their website pdf it says 13.6%. I just sent them an e-mail to get this straightened out.

I know there are many factors coming into play, but what would your first recommendation be as far as protein percentage for this particular style. Should I be shooting for 14.2% or maybe a little lower? I plan to try different hydration percentages also in my next tests.

And as far as the yeast goes, I realize this is a very low percentage. But last time I went to NY and tried about 12 different pizzas all my favorites had very little oven spring and were a bit denser than the usual extra-airy crusts you find in say chain-pizza. Do you think getting that flat-ish cornicione I’m aiming for has more to do with my flour protein %, kneading and baking process and not so much the yeast %?


Paulo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2013, 09:53:40 AM »
Paulo,

Is the 20F temperature you mentioned for your refrigerator an error? That temperature would be below freezing.

As for the 13.6% protein number you mentioned, that would be a good protein number for a NY style. Many of the NY style pizza places in the metro NYC area use a higher protein flour, with the All Trumps high-gluten flour being a big favorite, but some people will contend that a lower protein content flour produces a better crust that is not as chewy or leathery. If the 13.6% figure is correct, then I would stay with that. In that case, I don't think I would change the hydration value at this point.

I think your dough preparation is OK but I think I would make a few changes. First, I would dissolve the salt in the water rather than adding it to the flour along with the cake yeast. The cake yeast shouldn't be materially adversely affected by brief contact with salt but adding and stirring the salt in with the water more fully disperses the salt in the water and in the final dough. Second, unless storage space is a problem, which it could be in a commercial setting where large numbers of dough balls are needed, I would do the division and balling of the dough balls up front, right after coming out of the mixer, rather than the next day, after it has cold fermented in bulk for 18 hours. It is possible that two hours of tempering at room temperature right after forming into balls (after 18 hours of cold fermentation in bulk) may be too short. That could result in a dough that is a bit more elastic and harder to open and not quite ready for baking. That could lead to a crust that is a bit on the dense side. Third, if you want to stay with 0.50% cake yeast, you might consider extending the cold fermentation period to 24 hours, or even longer. Otherwise, I might be inclined to consider using more cake yeast. As you might imagine, some experimentation might be require to achieve the proper balance between yeast quantity and fermentation time. I am not a big believer in making too many changes at once, so you might first make the first two adjustments mentioned above, and keep everything else the same until you see the effect of the two changes.

I do not have any experience using a steel plate or a gas oven for baking so I am not a good one to comment on how to achieve the results you are looking for when using a steel plate, especially with no broiler. However, from what I have read, a temperature of around 600 degrees F for the steel plate would seem to be a good temperature to use without burning the bottom of the crust.

Out of curiosity, when you visited the pizzerias in NYC, did you note whether the dough balls were cold fermented, or were they based on a same-day dough, possibly fermented at ambient temperature? Also, are you conducting your tests for personal reasons or are you considering opening up a pizzeria?

Peter

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2013, 04:43:47 PM »
Peter,

Let me get to your last question first since I think it's the most relevant: Yes, I will be opening a pizzeria in Mexico City sometime in the next 12-18 months. The time frame depends on when I get the crust perfected and when I finish securing the investment. I currently own a small baked goods manufacture and distribution operation, also here in Mexico City.

Now about the refrigerator temperature, I'm also learning how to make ice cream and got my notes confused, that's my freezer temperature. I have a small refrigerator I only use for pizza cold fermenting and ingredient storage, that is at 37F.

I was confirmed this morning that the Alta Proteína flour is at 13.6% protein percent. I'm glad to hear you would recommend sticking to that, the same food services company that will be getting the cheese to my importer also has All Trumps,, but flour is heavy and the transport company charges by weight and volume. Between using DOP San Marzanos (or maybe the Cento Certified, still not sure) and Grande Whole Milk Mozzarella my pie is expensive enough. The Alta Proteína Flour is readily available here in MC and I can't tell a relevant difference in flavor from KASL.

Concerning dough preparation: I will try your recommended salt in water changes to my dough preparation. I'm very stubborn on getting the pizza as good as I possibly can, so I'll make sure that we have enough storage space for dough scaling and balling right out of the mixer.  Second, most of my previous pizza trials have been made doing a 3 day cold ferment and none of them had been difficult to work with, this particular dough was a nightmare to open up. I think I'll keep trying with a 36-72 hour cold ferment on my next tests. And third, this was my first try using cake yeast. I'll take your advice since I am quite the amateur here and change the first things before moving my cake yeast %. I'll post my results when I have them.

As far as the steel plate, I'll be getting a plate half as thick this weekend and see if that'll give me a little more time for browning and crunchiness, although my goal is to have a professional deck oven by the summer. I've really liked how some of your crusts have looked, especially the Lehmann VWG Slice picture at Reply#65 on this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.60.html. One of my favorite pizza crusts in NY is a place called "Best Pizza" in Brooklyn, your hole structure and oven spring looks uncannily similar. (picture of comparison below). What kind of oven setup do you use? 

The NYC pizzerias I visited and was able to get information from seem to vary when it comes to dough fermentation. Most of this information you already know but at Difara they’re using a same day dough which from what I understood is room temp fermented, but no one else I asked is doing that. Places like Joe’s use an overnight cold ferment with a longer room temperature ferment, Roberto the mexican pizzaiolo at Joe’s told me the dough “is made throughout the day and gets taken out of the fridge after 20-some hours and is left out between 2-3 hours, usually”. There’s also places like Ana Maria’s in Brooklyn which sell a ridiculous amount of pies a day and their pizzaiolo told me that dough is usually fermented about two days , but sometimes gets taken out ahead of time because of demand. I also have other examples from other pizzerias but the main point is I’ve found information going from same day room temperature ferments up to 3 day cold ferments and everything in between. The only thing the really good pizzerias seem to agree on is using MOSTLY quality ingredients. Sorry if my answer is incomplete, let me ask my friend Scott (Scott’s Pizza Tours) about it, he should know more about it then me.

And lastly, last night I had another pizza trial. I made two batches, both the exact same dough formulation/mixing process as my last test except one with cake yeast and the other with IDY. Also, instead of overnight I did a 3 day-cold ferment with a scale/ball coming out of the mixer and a 2 hour room temperature rise before baking. The first two pictures are the cake yeast dough, second two are IDY. The taste of the first was very good but texture was kind of soft and chewy. Texture of the second was the closest I’ve gotten to the classic NY street slice, but not much flavor.

Thanks for all your help!
Paulo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2013, 06:33:01 PM »
Paulo,

I suspected that you were planning on starting a pizzeria in Mexico City. The reason I asked is because I was planning on citing a post that describes how to make a cold fermented dough such as a NY style dough in a commercial setting. Now that you have confirmed my suspicions, that post is Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554/topicseen.html#msg64554. As you will see from that post, the procedure presumes using either cake yeast or IDY. In recent years, IDY has become more popular among pizza operators who specialize in the NY style, but there are some who have grown up in the business using cake yeast and gotten so used to it that they find it hard to break that habit and go to the use of IDY. Or they simply prefer the use of cake yeast for their operations and the results achieved using cake yeast. Of course, if one were to use the procedures of Reply 18 referenced above with ADY, the ADY would have to be properly prehydrated before using it to make dough. Since the procedure described in Reply 18 is intended to be general in nature, there is no dough formulation given. But the dough formulation you posted should fit that procedure quite nicely. Of course, you will have to tweak a few things along the way, such as the yeast quantity (and maybe even type) and the fermentation window. The refrigerator temperature you mentioned (37 degrees F) is just about perfect for your application.

Reply 65 that you mentioned goes back to 1984. That is when I volunteered to try to modify the commercial Lehmann NY style dough formu;ation to a home setting. I had about two years of pizza "learning" under my belt at the time (having read just about everything that Tom Lehmann and a few others at the PMQ Think Tank had written) but I was essentially a novice at making the pizzas. In my case, I used a Cordierite pizza stone in a builders-grade electric Whirpool oven, which I still have and is now about 23 years old. Steel pizza plates were nowhere to be seen. I was catering mostly to novice pizza makers such as myself, and that is why the Lehmann thread has a decidedly teaching tone to it, with detailed dough formulations and instructions. Maybe that is why the Lehmann thread continues to draw significant traffic (page views) without much in the way of recent activity. There are now many threads that are based on the Lehmann NY style dough formulation.

The fermentation protocols that you mentioned from your trips to NYC seem to be pretty standard. You won't often see fermentation windows that go beyond about three days. All else being equal, you will find that there is a correlation between yeast quantity and the duration of the fermentation window. That relationship is what you will have to play around with until you are satisfied with your results. Adding a commercial deck oven to the mix will also be a big improvement, although with a steel plate to use in the meantime you should be able to come closer to what you want than if you were using a pizza stone in a home oven for your test doughs. Using a commercial mixer will also be a big improvement over a home stand mixer.

What you propose to do sounds exciting. Have you decided on which style of NY pizza you want to make? Dom DeMarco makes what some of us call an "elite" NY style pizza. There are several others who specialize in the same style, usually using coal-fired ovens (Dom DeMarco uses a deck oven), but there are far more pizza operators who specialize in the "street" style of NY pizza, or slices. The San Marzano tomatoes you mentioned, whether DOP or not, are most closely aligned with the elite NY style. Usually, those pizzas use a fresh mozzarella. And that mozzarella can be soft or dry. And it might well be low moisture part-skim. Quality seems to attach itself more to the elite style than to the street style although it seems that both styles have declined in quality in recent years. I'm sure you have a pretty good idea as to what your are looking for. My comments are intended only to get a better idea as to where you want or plan to go with your pizzeria.

I have travelled to Mexico several times in recent years (in the Puerto Vallarta area) and it is hard to find quality pizza places. A good part of the problem is finding the right flours with the right protein content. It looks like you have good sources from an ingredients standpoint.

Peter
 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2013, 09:27:57 PM »
Paulo,

After my last post, I did a forum search on Joe's since my recollection is that one of our members, scott123, previously used a photo of Joe's as his avatar. I also recalled that several of our members visited Joe's as part of a tour last year of well-known NYC pizzerias. I then did a search for photos of Joe's pizzas. One of those pizzas showed the use of fresh mozzarella. Several years ago, one of our members, JasonZA, who worked for Mozzarella Fresca, a producer of fresh mozzarella at the retail level, asked the members for their opinions and questions about their fresh mozzarella. I wondered at the time whether the NYC slice joints used fresh mozzarella cheese. scott r said yes (that was back in 2006). What scott r said was confirmed by JasonZA. In case you are interested, you can see the exchanges at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2294.msg20119.html#msg20119.

Maybe scott r and/or scott123 can offer more on the Joe's pizza than I. However, as best I can tell there is not much in the way of information on their pizzas to do an easy reverse engineering or clone.

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2013, 10:15:42 PM »
I wondered at the time whether the NYC slice joints used fresh mozzarella cheese. scott r said yes (that was back in 2006). What scott r said was confirmed by JasonZA.


The coal places (aka 'elite') all use fior di latte (fresh mozz), with one or two offering the option of fresh or aged.  Joe's offers a fresh option, but the aged slices outsell the fresh ones by a factor of about 100 to 1.  Coal is associated with fresh, while slices are associated with aged.  Fresh mozz really doesn't work well on a typical 4-7 minute NY style slice because the longer baking time tends to be hard on it and it curdles.  Best uses fresh with a 4 minute bake, and they use a fior di latte with seemingly good stability, but, imo, it could be considerably better with an aged Grande or a Grande clone.

Paulo, steel has no place in a broilerless oven.  It speeds up the rate at which the bottom of the pizza bakes.  This is great when you can match this breakneck speed on the top with the use of a broiler, but, without the broiler, you're going to have incredibly pale tops and charred bottoms.  Both Best and Joe's have plenty of top color- color which you're not presently getting.

1/4" plate will do nothing to resolve this heat imbalance.  A gas oven without a broiler in the main compartment is, by far, the hardest configuration to get great NY style pizza out of. I haven't timed a Joe's pie recently, although I'm pretty sure it's less than 7 minutes.  I have timed Best's, though, and they're at 4. I promise you that you will never achieve a balanced 4 minute bake with steel in an oven without a broiler- and, believe me, you want to hit that Best bake time.

Because of your exposure to this forum, you're in a unique position to produce a pizza that's better than Joe's and Best.  Best is a flavor-deprived same day ferment, but with a fast bake that produces a great puffy texture, while Joe's has a slightly longer bake time and somewhat careless doughmaking techniques, both of which rob the dough from treasured oven spring, but, at the same time,  Joe's produces pretty good flavor with their longer ferment.

Both of these outfits are dropping the ball somewhere.  If you want a world class NY slice, your goal should be to piece together the best of both worlds- Best's oven thermodynamics (a 4 minute bake), Joe's multi day ferment along with your own conscientious approach to proper fermentation and gluten development.

Matching Best's 4 minute bake, though- a balanced 4 minute bake with good color on the top and not too much char underneath, matching that with your oven isn't going to be easy.  A lot of people have tried and failed.  At a minimum, you want a lower conductivity hearth material such as fibrament or unglazed quarry tiles.  That won't get you to 4 minutes, but it should get you to a balanced 7 minute bake at your oven's peak temp.  To hit 4, you want to do something like this:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21503.msg217026.html#msg217026

Re; your flour choice. Fermentation produces gluten.  The longer the fermentation, the greater the gluten development (to a point).  Very high gluten (13.5%+) flours can produce tender crumbs with same day ferments, but... fermentation produces flavor, so same day ferments tend to be flavorless.  If you want flavor AND less propensity for toughness, you want multi day ferments with a slightly lower protein flour.  For NY, 12.7-13.2% is ideal.  Harinas Elizondo seems like a quality miller- they should have something 13ish.  That's what you should be using.

Re; sauce.  For the style of pizza you're making, imported Italian tomatoes are a waste of time.  They just don't have the intensity of flavor to stand up to extended bake times.  Mexico is renowned for their tomatoes.  You should be able to track down a local tomato that puts Italian tomatoes to shame. Get a can of every brand of local tomato that your wholesaler carries and taste test each until you find the best. The goal should be a crushed tomato that's sweet yet tart, thick/not watery and robustly flavored.


Offline scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2013, 10:52:32 PM »
However, as best I can tell there is not much in the way of information on their pizzas to do an easy reverse engineering or clone.

Actually, Peter, with Paulo's insider information relating to fermentation times, that's the last piece of the puzzle, imo. Joe's has a very tender crust.  With a multi day ferment, there's only going to be one or two ways to achieve this. You can take all trumps and bump up the oil for tenderness, but if you push it too high, the crust will start getting oily, and Joe's crust isn't oily.  You can also dramatically underknead all trumps for tenderness, but that's more of a Jim Lahey-esque advanced dough making technique that I'm sure Joe's isn't incorporating.  They scream an old school traditional 10-15 minute knead. The only option left for providing tenderness is lower protein flour.

Once we know the protein level of the flour, the fermentation time and the bake time, reverse engineering gets a lot easier. I've tasted the crust countless times, and watched them stretch plenty of pies.  There's no real outliers here.  58% to 60% hydration, 1.75% to 2% salt, .07 thickness factor. The evenness of the browning seems to point to high-ish oil, but, it can't be that much of an outlier or you'd notice it- 3% max.

Sugar might be something I'd play around with.  I know sugar promotes browning, but I'm not sure if it promotes even browning, and Joe's is pretty evenly browned.  I'm reasonably certain that they get browning from 3% oil and a longer 6-7 minute bake. They sell a LOT of pizza, though, so I don't think they could keep up with demand with much longer than a 7 minute bake. I might try 1% sugar and, at some point, move up to 2%.  No higher than 2, though.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2013, 02:43:24 AM »
Scott123 thank you so much for all your input, you’ve undoubtedly saved me a lot of time. Altough some of the topics you discussed are answered in my reply to Peter, I will thoroughly answer your reply tomorrow as I’ve run out of time for tonight.

Peter,

Thanks for pointing me to that thread, you saved me quite a bit of time of scouring through the forum for finding that answer. I’ll take a look at that whole thread later on. As far as yeast is concerned, I’m still trying out different kinds and comparing results, I’ll make sure to share them here on the forum.

The fact that the Lehmann thread still keeps getting so much traffic and references just goes to show how useful this forum is, even if the information is over 20 years old. And I too think that getting my deck oven and commercial mixer will greatly improve my results.

Disclaimer: I love Mexico, please don’t think my negative comments toward it’s pizza are trying to insult or make fun of anyone. But I must be straightforward in order to be objective.

I haven’t yet honed in on the exact style of NY pizza I want to sell, but what I do know is that I want thin crust (no higher than 0.08), the classic NY foldable/kind of chewy/crispy outside soft inside crust, very flavorful tomato sauce, premium toppings and Grande whole milk low moisture mozzarella. Anything that follows those rules I’m interested in. The reasons for these decisions are the following:

Dough: Market studies show that Mexicans that go to premium pizzerias in MC are almost always inclined towards a thin dough, but don’t like cracker crisp, which is pretty much all you can get if you want thin pizza in this city. From my 20+ pizza trials I’ve heard a lot of complaints, but everyone loves that the dough is thin and not crackery.  Sauce: Mexicans know a lot about sauce (or salsas), they put salsa on just about any and everything and pay a lot of attention to it. I love Joe’s but I don’t think they could get away with that “less than stellar” sauce in MC and still have lines out the door. Toppings: in Mexico, pizza is all about the toppings. Since dough/sauce/cheese is usually very low quality most places cover it up by overloading their pizzas with cheap ingredients. Quantity over quality would probably be the best way to describe it. A video is worth a million words:
Así es como nace una Pizza del Perro Negro
By the way, these are considered one of the top 5 pizzerias in MC by the city’s most important food blogs, magazines and restaurant critics. Their house specialty is a pizza made with dough, refried beans, green salsa, pulled chicken, softened tortilla chips, fresh cream and a gouda like cheese. Here’s another one of “the best” in the city: https://es.foursquare.com/mamaspizza80/photos?openPhotoId=510daa1de4b0428ed942abb7. Yes, those are canned peaches on a pizza. That should give you a general idea, but  if you’re interested in a more extensive analysis I can send you my “Current State of Pizza in MC” document.

 I will try my best at inviting people to try plain cheese slices so they can appreciate the core ingredients of traditional NY style pizza, but I doubt I’ll get very far. You can’t change people’s tastes that easily.

And lastly the Grande cheese: By far the most important component to a Mexican’s palate when it comes to pizza. They want something gooey, well melted, flavorful and that covers the whole pie. I may be mistaken, but I really doubt a high volume operation could exist using only fresh mozzarella. It’s too light and too delicate and most important, too different from what most people consider “pizza” here. One of every two pizzas sold in Mexico (and that includes frozen), is Domino’s, and Domino’s here is worse than in the US. That doesn’t mean people love it, most people openly admit it’s horrible, it’s just there’s no better option most of the time and it’s cheap.I love NY elite style pizza but it my opinion, it strays too far from the standard in Mexico to be able to sell it in volume at a corner mainly-slice joint.

The plan down the road is to open a full service restaurant and maybe there I would consider it. Catering to a more upscale crowd with premium prices might work. Although, I would have to make my own mozzarella since the only options here are Belgioso Cryopack, 60 dollars a pound imported Italian buffalo mozz (which isn’t even that fresh) or some very bad attempts made by a local farm.

I absolutely love Di Fara’s cheese mix. The problem there again is the fresh mozz. But I may try to incorporate elements of his like the parmiggiano/granda padano sprinkling at the end. I also want to do more tests on trying to get as close as possible to his dough formulation, but that's a tricky one.

And just to give you the whole picture, what I do have a more specific idea of is the concept. Small restaurant focused mainly on pizza with a few other options on the menu (2 salads, meatball sub and desserts). No waiters.  18” and 14” pies, with slices available off the 18”. Low prices and some of the dynamics of a slice joint, but in MC’s trendiest neighborhood with a very nice decór. Nothing too fancy, but definitely not your standard Italian-american corner joint.  If you´re  interested in hearing the reasons on why I chose this particular concept I’d be glad to elaborate, but that’s an even longer explanation and I don’t want to clutter up this thread with something off-topic. I’m also open to debate any of the things I just explained.

I don’t particularly like the fresh mozz slice at Joe’s, I find the cheese a little plasticky and it doesn’t seem as fresh as other places, although I could be wrong. I’ve seen almost all NY slice joints offer a fresh mozz slice in the last couple years. I’ll also look at that whole thread later on.

Puerto Vallarta is a nice place for a vacation, I’ve never had pizza there but I did find some delicious Chinese cuisine, as well as great seafood. If you ever want a recommendation for places to vacation in Mexico, just let me know.

Paulo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2013, 06:25:12 PM »
scott123,

Your comment about the flour got me to thinking. As you know, bromated flours are outlawed in Mexico. In the past, when I have looked at the labels on bags of Mexican flours, at the retail level in both the U.S. (in markets that cater to Hispanics) and in Mexico (in mega-markets), what I found is that in lieu of bromate, the additives that are commonly added to Mexican flours are ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and Azodicarbonamide. I wondered whether the Alta Proteina flour that Paulo has been testing contained those additives. It looks like the answer is yes. Since Paulo mentioned a pdf Harinas Elizondo document, I did a search using pdf as a search term and found this document that confirms the use of ascorbic acid and Azodicarbonamice: http://www.harinaselizondo.com/pdf/harina.pdf. From the ingredients lists for the different flours described in the Harinas Elizondo, it also appear that the flours contain one of your favorite ingredients: vital wheat gluten** (Gluten). That would help answer the second question I had. How did Harinas Elizondo get the higher levels of protein? Maybe Paulo can confirm whether Harinas Elizondo is adding vital wheat gluten to its flours.

The above said, the Harinas Elizondo flour that appears to come closest to the protein content that you favor is the Hoja de Plata flour, with about 12.8% protein.

Peter

**Paulo, I'm teasing scott123 here. He hates vital wheat gluten.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 07:01:36 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2013, 07:27:32 PM »
 :)

Peter, I saw the ingredients as well and was initially a bit concerned, but google translate allayed my fears.

Quote
harina de trigo, este product contiene gluten

Translates as

wheat flour, this product contains gluten

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2013, 07:34:29 PM »
scott123,

In some countries vital wheat gluten is called gluten flour. Hopefully, the ingredients lists are to alert those who have gluten intolerance. I'd be curious to know where Harinas Elizondo gets its grains to mill.

Peter

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2013, 01:26:11 AM »
 

Scott123,

I agree on how fresh mozz doesn’t work very well on NY Street slices because of the longer bake. From what I’ve read and asked their mexican pizzaiolos, Best Pizza makes their own fresh mozz. That could have something to do with the stability, something specific they do in their recipe. It somehow tastes different than the elite coal places and I think it has more to do with their recipe than their oven. I agree that it would probably be better with an aged mozz, their slices are spectacular right out of the oven but the cheese suffers a bit after the bike ride delivery.

“Incredibly pale tops and charred bottoms” is dead on my biggest problem, and I agree that I should shoot for a better pizza than both. I really like Joe’s because of what they stand for when it comes to tradition and their dough on a good day is quite tasty but that sauce is borderline “meh”. And Best Pizza is very good in my opinión, but I feel like in trying to get the best of both worlds (WFO and fresh mozz but selling “Street slices” ) they’re not really setting any standards in any specific style. Kind of trying to pull another Difara-ish concept of combing VPN and NY style without making it happen.

I’ll spend my weekend getting the quarry tiles instead of the steel plate,  should I be looking for a specific thickness and color? What you did in your home oven is impressive engineering. I’m going to try the quarry tiles first just because I don’t want to completely modify my house oven if I’m getting the deck oven in a few months. 

Flour: I'll shoot Elizondo an e-mail asking whether or not they use VWG and if they could give me a complete rundown of how their flour is produced. The good thing is the factory is right in the middle of the city and they seem pretty open about everything. I"ll give the Hoja de plata a try and see what results I get. 

Sauce: this is the part that really confused me.  I've never heard someone say that San Marzano's don't have a robust flavor, and even less that Mexico is world renowned for their tomatoes. So the first question is if you could elaborate on the san marzanos, do you mean that they only work well at very short bake times like VPN and anything longer affects their flavor? My experience with them has been nothing short of fantastic, granted I've only used them on my 4 minute pies. But they blew everything else away, especially the mexican canned tomatoes which out of the 18 brands I've tried, are by far the worst. That leads me to my next question, where did you get the information that our tomatoes could put Italy's to shame? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm genuinely curious!

At best, I've been able to get a fresh decent plum tomato at the supermarket, but when it comes to canned I've tried 4 already and it seems like a competition to who can make the worst product. Mexico has some outstanding produce, but I don't think tomatoes are one of them and the brands that package canned tomatoes are making a product for the masses, getting it to be as cheap as possible so they can have a shot at market share. At my local walmart (which is dirt cheap in mexico city) I counted 5 brands of italian tomatoes, 3 brands of spanish and 2 mexican. And one of the mexican ones is a tomato-based mush that could hardly be turned into a sauce. I'll get pictures and post them. Nevertheless, I will definitely do an exhaustive research on national brands which I haven't done to 100%. there's nothing I would like more than to not have to pay import fees on my tomatoes.

I'll be trying everything you recommended on reply 50 very soon, great stuff.

Paulo



Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2013, 02:43:27 AM »
Scott123: I owe you an apology, you were dead on about the san marzanos.
I had to special order my unglazed quarry tiles which took a week and a half, so I decided to put the  san marzano debate to rest with one more steel plate trial followed up by a UQT trial whenever I got them. I hadn't taken into account that the first time I did it my plain italian plum tomato sauce wasn't yet very good. I've since made it dozens of times. It now tastes much better and was preferred over the san marzanos, even with the 4 minute bake time.

Once I got my tiles and did 7 minute bakes the results were even more extreme: 5-0 in favor of the regular plum sauce vs. san marzano. Like you said, the tomatoes need a robust flavor to stand up to that bake time. The san marzanos are too delicate in my opinion and their flavor simply got lost amidst the cheese, crust and toppings. I'll continue trying your other recommendations in my upcoming pizza tests.

Peter, Scott123: Here's the dough formulation for my first UQT test.

Alta proteina flour 100%.    187.5 grams
Water                   62%.     116 grams
Cake Yeast.           0.5%.    0.94 grams
Salt                      1.8%.      3.4 grams
Light Olive Oil.       2%.         3.75 grams

TF: 0.07
This dough formulation was for two 10 inch dough balls.

Place salt in water and mix by hand until completely dissolved. Crumble cake yeast into flour and mix. Add half of flour/yeast mixture to water and start mixing on low with dough hook, keep adding little by little until fully incorporated. Mix in Olive oil and mix on low 5 minutes. Let rest 5 minutes, scale, ball and refrigerate.

Note*: My finished dough balls have small lumps of unmixed flour after I'm done mixing. Is it be because I mix the flour into the water entirely with the dough hook, that I mix the flour in gradually or is it my dough formulation that's causing this?

3 day cold rise, reballed 8 hours before and did a 3 hour room temp rise before dressing and baking. (3 hours becuase it was pretty cold, and I didn't have time to research on the forum so I guessed, was this is a good idea?)

I couldn't get 1 inch thick UQT so i used two layers of half inch tiles. My IR scanner is not working properly so once again I wasn' t able to get a read on anything, but I let  my oven run on max temperature for 1 hour 15 minutes. The pies baked for 7 minutes. I got a little more browning on top then I was getting with the steel  plate but nowhere near what I'm looking for. Also, the crust was very crunchy, which I didn't like. Not much in the way of taste either. I think it's time to  start cranking up the yeast percentage to try and get more flavor, but I could use some advice on the browning/crunchiness issues if ayone has ideas besides what has already been recommended. (granted not all advice has been tried yet, but will be in the upcoming trials)

I get the feeling that the tiles are still transferring the heat too quickly, so maybe turning the heat down a little could help? Or could it have more to do with my dough formulation? I'm just randomly guessing here, as usual any and all recommendations are appreciated.

Paulo

Offline scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2013, 06:04:07 AM »
Paulo, no apology is necessary.  My previous comments on Mexican tomatoes were actually based on somewhat limited knowledge and definitely could have used further explanation than what I had provided.

The renowned Mexican tomatoes I was referring to are actually the fresh Mexican tomatoes that we have access to in the states.  They cost an arm and a leg, but, out of all the areas where tomatoes come from (CA, Israel, Holland, etc.) Mexican tomatoes, are, by far, the best. The only exception would be local NJ tomatoes, and that's a very small season and an entirely different variety of tomato. I've never tasted a canned Mexican tomato. Much like CA canned tomatoes can have issues on the retail level, it sounds like your supermarkets are getting questionable products as well. When I talked about the renowned fresh Mexicans tomatoes, I was holding out hope (possibly false hope) that someone down your way was canning the fantastic fresh tomatoes that wend their way up here.

Can you get anything in the way of canned crushed tomatoes?  Those tend to be the most flavorful and best for this style.  Also, I know you're in an urban area, but, as you leave Mexico City, are you liable to find any regionally grown tomatoes?  Any small scale producers that are canning their own product?

That is good news, though, that you are beginning to see the advantages of non-SMs tomatoes for NY style pizza.

Before I get into discussing the oven setup, I want to cover some small things that I'm noticing.

First, olive oil, even light olive oil, really has very little history in NY style dough. I can just about guarantee you that Joe's doesn't add it to their dough.  Oil is very common, but it's a more neutral tasting oil like soybean oil.

Cake yeast should always be dissolved in water before adding the flour.  Salt should be added to the flour before combining the flour with the water. Oil, at least up to 3% oil, can be added to the cake yeast/water mixture before adding the flour.

Your dough formulation should not be causing the bits of unmixed flour. My money is on too slow mixing and/or partial mixing.  You don't want flour flying out of the mixer, but, at the same time, you want a speed that will incorporate the flour into water relatively quickly so that it doesn't sit and dry into unmixed bits. Add all the flour to the water at one time and use a speed that will mix the dough quickly, but that isn't so fast that it sends the flour flying.

3 hours at room temp for the dough balls prior to baking should be fine, although it depends a bit on your proofing containers and on your room temp.  You'll find different opinions on an ideal pre-bake dough temp, but I find it's probably best to shoot for around 65 F.

I'm not really feeling the flour. Maybe it's the photo, but the crumb is looking a bit underdeveloped and translucent- almost like a high oil dough.  Next time, take a photo of the dough after kneading and the dough ball just after balling. It's very possible you can work out the textural issues with an improved bake setup. Let's get your target bake time and then see how it looks.

Unless you start adding dead yeast, which I wouldn't recommend, more yeast won't give you more flavor.  3 days fermentation should give you a very flavorful dough.  This could be another bake setup thing- as you get a faster bake time, you get a bit more char/a bit more flavor.  Other than that, you can get a bit more flavor by tweaking your formula.  2% salt is fully within the NY style.  You don't want to go higher than that, but try 2%.  Also, Best's dough probably doesn't contain sugar, but I'm sure that Joe's does.  Go with 1% sugar.

Okay, on to the oven setup.

First, unless you're doing a lot of pies at once, you should only need 1/2" UQTs.  I noticed that you have a lot of empty space on your oven shelf.  Size is a big player in great NY style pies, as it dictates cheese/sauce to rim ratio.  You might want to track down a tile cutter and create a larger square to bake on.  What is the dimension of your shelf?

There's nothing inherently special about UQTs. UQTs only begin to shine around 600.  In your oven, by themselves, UQTs aren't going to hit that.  The only way you can hit 600 is with the heat trapping ceiling scenario that I linked to earlier.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21503.msg217026.html#msg217026

The ceiling, by only allowing just enough air for proper combustion of the gas, traps heat in the lower area and, to an extent, stops heat from reaching the thermostat in the upper area and cycling the oven off.  I'm attaching a revised diagram below that shows the different temperature zones.

Track down some regular black glazed tiles and arrange them on the shelf above (black side down), filling in almost all the gaps with foil (leave just a single 1/2" gap down the middle for air flow)

The entire crunch thing is from a 7 minute bake.  Trim that to 5 minutes with a proper setup, and the crunch will be gone and you'll have just the right about of flop. The setup I'm describing should not only give you the intense bottom heat you were getting from steel, but, it will give you a matching amount of top browning heat as well, for a quick balanced bake.


Overall, these are all very nitpicky tweaks that I'm recommending.  You're very close.  All the pies you've made to date look great, and, if you could consistently produce any of them, you'd most likely become very rich, but I'd still like to see you doing something world class/better than Best and Joe's, which I definitely feel is within your grasp.

Offline scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2013, 06:15:30 AM »
After pondering the appearance of your crumb a bit more, the thought occurred to me that it might be a bit overfermented.  Normally, 3 days shouldn't be too long for this type of dough, but... I did some digging and found out that Mexico City is at almost 8,000 feet elevation. That's high, and that will definitely effect the way dough ferments and bakes.

Compensating for elevation is going to involved some trial and error (and hopefully some feedback from some of the forum members who bake at higher elevations), but, for now, I'd bump your water up to 64 and shorten your fermentation time to 2 days.

On the plus side, elevation is really great for oven spring.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 06:19:11 AM by scott123 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2013, 08:29:45 AM »
Cake yeast should always be dissolved in water before adding the flour.  Salt should be added to the flour before combining the flour with the water. Oil, at least up to 3% oil, can be added to the cake yeast/water mixture before adding the flour.

scott123,

Is there a reason why you are suggesting that the cake yeast always be dissolved in water? And, for such a prehydration, what water temperature would you suggest? Also, with respect to the oil, is there a reason for adding the oil up front rather than later?

BTW, Professor Calvel once said that for yeast to be noticeable tastewise in the finished bread, which I interpreted from his dough recipes to mean fresh yeast (cake yeast), you would need about 2.5% (see Reply 73 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg120400/topicseen.html#msg120400).

Peter


 

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