Author Topic: Joe's on Carmine St.  (Read 22533 times)

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scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2013, 10:52:32 PM »
However, as best I can tell there is not much in the way of information on their pizzas to do an easy reverse engineering or clone.

Actually, Peter, with Paulo's insider information relating to fermentation times, that's the last piece of the puzzle, imo. Joe's has a very tender crust.  With a multi day ferment, there's only going to be one or two ways to achieve this. You can take all trumps and bump up the oil for tenderness, but if you push it too high, the crust will start getting oily, and Joe's crust isn't oily.  You can also dramatically underknead all trumps for tenderness, but that's more of a Jim Lahey-esque advanced dough making technique that I'm sure Joe's isn't incorporating.  They scream an old school traditional 10-15 minute knead. The only option left for providing tenderness is lower protein flour.

Once we know the protein level of the flour, the fermentation time and the bake time, reverse engineering gets a lot easier. I've tasted the crust countless times, and watched them stretch plenty of pies.  There's no real outliers here.  58% to 60% hydration, 1.75% to 2% salt, .07 thickness factor. The evenness of the browning seems to point to high-ish oil, but, it can't be that much of an outlier or you'd notice it- 3% max.

Sugar might be something I'd play around with.  I know sugar promotes browning, but I'm not sure if it promotes even browning, and Joe's is pretty evenly browned.  I'm reasonably certain that they get browning from 3% oil and a longer 6-7 minute bake. They sell a LOT of pizza, though, so I don't think they could keep up with demand with much longer than a 7 minute bake. I might try 1% sugar and, at some point, move up to 2%.  No higher than 2, though.


Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2013, 02:43:24 AM »
Scott123 thank you so much for all your input, youíve undoubtedly saved me a lot of time. Altough some of the topics you discussed are answered in my reply to Peter, I will thoroughly answer your reply tomorrow as Iíve run out of time for tonight.

Peter,

Thanks for pointing me to that thread, you saved me quite a bit of time of scouring through the forum for finding that answer. Iíll take a look at that whole thread later on. As far as yeast is concerned, Iím still trying out different kinds and comparing results, Iíll make sure to share them here on the forum.

The fact that the Lehmann thread still keeps getting so much traffic and references just goes to show how useful this forum is, even if the information is over 20 years old. And I too think that getting my deck oven and commercial mixer will greatly improve my results.

Disclaimer: I love Mexico, please donít think my negative comments toward itís pizza are trying to insult or make fun of anyone. But I must be straightforward in order to be objective.

I havenít yet honed in on the exact style of NY pizza I want to sell, but what I do know is that I want thin crust (no higher than 0.08), the classic NY foldable/kind of chewy/crispy outside soft inside crust, very flavorful tomato sauce, premium toppings and Grande whole milk low moisture mozzarella. Anything that follows those rules Iím interested in. The reasons for these decisions are the following:

Dough: Market studies show that Mexicans that go to premium pizzerias in MC are almost always inclined towards a thin dough, but donít like cracker crisp, which is pretty much all you can get if you want thin pizza in this city. From my 20+ pizza trials Iíve heard a lot of complaints, but everyone loves that the dough is thin and not crackery.  Sauce: Mexicans know a lot about sauce (or salsas), they put salsa on just about any and everything and pay a lot of attention to it. I love Joeís but I donít think they could get away with that ďless than stellarĒ sauce in MC and still have lines out the door. Toppings: in Mexico, pizza is all about the toppings. Since dough/sauce/cheese is usually very low quality most places cover it up by overloading their pizzas with cheap ingredients. Quantity over quality would probably be the best way to describe it. A video is worth a million words: By the way, these are considered one of the top 5 pizzerias in MC by the cityís most important food blogs, magazines and restaurant critics. Their house specialty is a pizza made with dough, refried beans, green salsa, pulled chicken, softened tortilla chips, fresh cream and a gouda like cheese. Hereís another one of ďthe bestĒ in the city: https://es.foursquare.com/mamaspizza80/photos?openPhotoId=510daa1de4b0428ed942abb7. Yes, those are canned peaches on a pizza. That should give you a general idea, but  if youíre interested in a more extensive analysis I can send you my ďCurrent State of Pizza in MCĒ document.

 I will try my best at inviting people to try plain cheese slices so they can appreciate the core ingredients of traditional NY style pizza, but I doubt Iíll get very far. You canít change peopleís tastes that easily.

And lastly the Grande cheese: By far the most important component to a Mexicanís palate when it comes to pizza. They want something gooey, well melted, flavorful and that covers the whole pie. I may be mistaken, but I really doubt a high volume operation could exist using only fresh mozzarella. Itís too light and too delicate and most important, too different from what most people consider ďpizzaĒ here. One of every two pizzas sold in Mexico (and that includes frozen), is Dominoís, and Dominoís here is worse than in the US. That doesnít mean people love it, most people openly admit itís horrible, itís just thereís no better option most of the time and itís cheap.I love NY elite style pizza but it my opinion, it strays too far from the standard in Mexico to be able to sell it in volume at a corner mainly-slice joint.

The plan down the road is to open a full service restaurant and maybe there I would consider it. Catering to a more upscale crowd with premium prices might work. Although, I would have to make my own mozzarella since the only options here are Belgioso Cryopack, 60 dollars a pound imported Italian buffalo mozz (which isnít even that fresh) or some very bad attempts made by a local farm.

I absolutely love Di Faraís cheese mix. The problem there again is the fresh mozz. But I may try to incorporate elements of his like the parmiggiano/granda padano sprinkling at the end. I also want to do more tests on trying to get as close as possible to his dough formulation, but that's a tricky one.

And just to give you the whole picture, what I do have a more specific idea of is the concept. Small restaurant focused mainly on pizza with a few other options on the menu (2 salads, meatball sub and desserts). No waiters.  18Ē and 14Ē pies, with slices available off the 18Ē. Low prices and some of the dynamics of a slice joint, but in MCís trendiest neighborhood with a very nice decůr. Nothing too fancy, but definitely not your standard Italian-american corner joint.  If youīre  interested in hearing the reasons on why I chose this particular concept Iíd be glad to elaborate, but thatís an even longer explanation and I donít want to clutter up this thread with something off-topic. Iím also open to debate any of the things I just explained.

I donít particularly like the fresh mozz slice at Joeís, I find the cheese a little plasticky and it doesnít seem as fresh as other places, although I could be wrong. Iíve seen almost all NY slice joints offer a fresh mozz slice in the last couple years. Iíll also look at that whole thread later on.

Puerto Vallarta is a nice place for a vacation, Iíve never had pizza there but I did find some delicious Chinese cuisine, as well as great seafood. If you ever want a recommendation for places to vacation in Mexico, just let me know.

Paulo

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2013, 06:25:12 PM »
scott123,

Your comment about the flour got me to thinking. As you know, bromated flours are outlawed in Mexico. In the past, when I have looked at the labels on bags of Mexican flours, at the retail level in both the U.S. (in markets that cater to Hispanics) and in Mexico (in mega-markets), what I found is that in lieu of bromate, the additives that are commonly added to Mexican flours are ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and Azodicarbonamide. I wondered whether the Alta Proteina flour that Paulo has been testing contained those additives. It looks like the answer is yes. Since Paulo mentioned a pdf Harinas Elizondo document, I did a search using pdf as a search term and found this document that confirms the use of ascorbic acid and Azodicarbonamice: http://www.harinaselizondo.com/pdf/harina.pdf. From the ingredients lists for the different flours described in the Harinas Elizondo, it also appear that the flours contain one of your favorite ingredients: vital wheat gluten** (Gluten). That would help answer the second question I had. How did Harinas Elizondo get the higher levels of protein? Maybe Paulo can confirm whether Harinas Elizondo is adding vital wheat gluten to its flours.

The above said, the Harinas Elizondo flour that appears to come closest to the protein content that you favor is the Hoja de Plata flour, with about 12.8% protein.

Peter

**Paulo, I'm teasing scott123 here. He hates vital wheat gluten.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 07:01:36 PM by Pete-zza »

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2013, 07:27:32 PM »
 :)

Peter, I saw the ingredients as well and was initially a bit concerned, but google translate allayed my fears.

Quote
harina de trigo, este product contiene gluten

Translates as

wheat flour, this product contains gluten

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2013, 07:34:29 PM »
scott123,

In some countries vital wheat gluten is called gluten flour. Hopefully, the ingredients lists are to alert those who have gluten intolerance. I'd be curious to know where Harinas Elizondo gets its grains to mill.

Peter

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2013, 01:26:11 AM »
 

Scott123,

I agree on how fresh mozz doesnít work very well on NY Street slices because of the longer bake. From what Iíve read and asked their mexican pizzaiolos, Best Pizza makes their own fresh mozz. That could have something to do with the stability, something specific they do in their recipe. It somehow tastes different than the elite coal places and I think it has more to do with their recipe than their oven. I agree that it would probably be better with an aged mozz, their slices are spectacular right out of the oven but the cheese suffers a bit after the bike ride delivery.

ďIncredibly pale tops and charred bottomsĒ is dead on my biggest problem, and I agree that I should shoot for a better pizza than both. I really like Joeís because of what they stand for when it comes to tradition and their dough on a good day is quite tasty but that sauce is borderline ďmehĒ. And Best Pizza is very good in my opiniůn, but I feel like in trying to get the best of both worlds (WFO and fresh mozz but selling ďStreet slicesĒ ) theyíre not really setting any standards in any specific style. Kind of trying to pull another Difara-ish concept of combing VPN and NY style without making it happen.

Iíll spend my weekend getting the quarry tiles instead of the steel plate,  should I be looking for a specific thickness and color? What you did in your home oven is impressive engineering. Iím going to try the quarry tiles first just because I donít want to completely modify my house oven if Iím getting the deck oven in a few months. 

Flour: I'll shoot Elizondo an e-mail asking whether or not they use VWG and if they could give me a complete rundown of how their flour is produced. The good thing is the factory is right in the middle of the city and they seem pretty open about everything. I"ll give the Hoja de plata a try and see what results I get. 

Sauce: this is the part that really confused me.  I've never heard someone say that San Marzano's don't have a robust flavor, and even less that Mexico is world renowned for their tomatoes. So the first question is if you could elaborate on the san marzanos, do you mean that they only work well at very short bake times like VPN and anything longer affects their flavor? My experience with them has been nothing short of fantastic, granted I've only used them on my 4 minute pies. But they blew everything else away, especially the mexican canned tomatoes which out of the 18 brands I've tried, are by far the worst. That leads me to my next question, where did you get the information that our tomatoes could put Italy's to shame? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm genuinely curious!

At best, I've been able to get a fresh decent plum tomato at the supermarket, but when it comes to canned I've tried 4 already and it seems like a competition to who can make the worst product. Mexico has some outstanding produce, but I don't think tomatoes are one of them and the brands that package canned tomatoes are making a product for the masses, getting it to be as cheap as possible so they can have a shot at market share. At my local walmart (which is dirt cheap in mexico city) I counted 5 brands of italian tomatoes, 3 brands of spanish and 2 mexican. And one of the mexican ones is a tomato-based mush that could hardly be turned into a sauce. I'll get pictures and post them. Nevertheless, I will definitely do an exhaustive research on national brands which I haven't done to 100%. there's nothing I would like more than to not have to pay import fees on my tomatoes.

I'll be trying everything you recommended on reply 50 very soon, great stuff.

Paulo



Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2013, 02:43:27 AM »
Scott123: I owe you an apology, you were dead on about the san marzanos.
I had to special order my unglazed quarry tiles which took a week and a half, so I decided to put the  san marzano debate to rest with one more steel plate trial followed up by a UQT trial whenever I got them. I hadn't taken into account that the first time I did it my plain italian plum tomato sauce wasn't yet very good. I've since made it dozens of times. It now tastes much better and was preferred over the san marzanos, even with the 4 minute bake time.

Once I got my tiles and did 7 minute bakes the results were even more extreme: 5-0 in favor of the regular plum sauce vs. san marzano. Like you said, the tomatoes need a robust flavor to stand up to that bake time. The san marzanos are too delicate in my opinion and their flavor simply got lost amidst the cheese, crust and toppings. I'll continue trying your other recommendations in my upcoming pizza tests.

Peter, Scott123: Here's the dough formulation for my first UQT test.

Alta proteina flour 100%.    187.5 grams
Water                   62%.     116 grams
Cake Yeast.           0.5%.    0.94 grams
Salt                      1.8%.      3.4 grams
Light Olive Oil.       2%.         3.75 grams

TF: 0.07
This dough formulation was for two 10 inch dough balls.

Place salt in water and mix by hand until completely dissolved. Crumble cake yeast into flour and mix. Add half of flour/yeast mixture to water and start mixing on low with dough hook, keep adding little by little until fully incorporated. Mix in Olive oil and mix on low 5 minutes. Let rest 5 minutes, scale, ball and refrigerate.

Note*: My finished dough balls have small lumps of unmixed flour after I'm done mixing. Is it be because I mix the flour into the water entirely with the dough hook, that I mix the flour in gradually or is it my dough formulation that's causing this?

3 day cold rise, reballed 8 hours before and did a 3 hour room temp rise before dressing and baking. (3 hours becuase it was pretty cold, and I didn't have time to research on the forum so I guessed, was this is a good idea?)

I couldn't get 1 inch thick UQT so i used two layers of half inch tiles. My IR scanner is not working properly so once again I wasn' t able to get a read on anything, but I let  my oven run on max temperature for 1 hour 15 minutes. The pies baked for 7 minutes. I got a little more browning on top then I was getting with the steel  plate but nowhere near what I'm looking for. Also, the crust was very crunchy, which I didn't like. Not much in the way of taste either. I think it's time to  start cranking up the yeast percentage to try and get more flavor, but I could use some advice on the browning/crunchiness issues if ayone has ideas besides what has already been recommended. (granted not all advice has been tried yet, but will be in the upcoming trials)

I get the feeling that the tiles are still transferring the heat too quickly, so maybe turning the heat down a little could help? Or could it have more to do with my dough formulation? I'm just randomly guessing here, as usual any and all recommendations are appreciated.

Paulo

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2013, 06:04:07 AM »
Paulo, no apology is necessary.  My previous comments on Mexican tomatoes were actually based on somewhat limited knowledge and definitely could have used further explanation than what I had provided.

The renowned Mexican tomatoes I was referring to are actually the fresh Mexican tomatoes that we have access to in the states.  They cost an arm and a leg, but, out of all the areas where tomatoes come from (CA, Israel, Holland, etc.) Mexican tomatoes, are, by far, the best. The only exception would be local NJ tomatoes, and that's a very small season and an entirely different variety of tomato. I've never tasted a canned Mexican tomato. Much like CA canned tomatoes can have issues on the retail level, it sounds like your supermarkets are getting questionable products as well. When I talked about the renowned fresh Mexicans tomatoes, I was holding out hope (possibly false hope) that someone down your way was canning the fantastic fresh tomatoes that wend their way up here.

Can you get anything in the way of canned crushed tomatoes?  Those tend to be the most flavorful and best for this style.  Also, I know you're in an urban area, but, as you leave Mexico City, are you liable to find any regionally grown tomatoes?  Any small scale producers that are canning their own product?

That is good news, though, that you are beginning to see the advantages of non-SMs tomatoes for NY style pizza.

Before I get into discussing the oven setup, I want to cover some small things that I'm noticing.

First, olive oil, even light olive oil, really has very little history in NY style dough. I can just about guarantee you that Joe's doesn't add it to their dough.  Oil is very common, but it's a more neutral tasting oil like soybean oil.

Cake yeast should always be dissolved in water before adding the flour.  Salt should be added to the flour before combining the flour with the water. Oil, at least up to 3% oil, can be added to the cake yeast/water mixture before adding the flour.

Your dough formulation should not be causing the bits of unmixed flour. My money is on too slow mixing and/or partial mixing.  You don't want flour flying out of the mixer, but, at the same time, you want a speed that will incorporate the flour into water relatively quickly so that it doesn't sit and dry into unmixed bits. Add all the flour to the water at one time and use a speed that will mix the dough quickly, but that isn't so fast that it sends the flour flying.

3 hours at room temp for the dough balls prior to baking should be fine, although it depends a bit on your proofing containers and on your room temp.  You'll find different opinions on an ideal pre-bake dough temp, but I find it's probably best to shoot for around 65 F.

I'm not really feeling the flour. Maybe it's the photo, but the crumb is looking a bit underdeveloped and translucent- almost like a high oil dough.  Next time, take a photo of the dough after kneading and the dough ball just after balling. It's very possible you can work out the textural issues with an improved bake setup. Let's get your target bake time and then see how it looks.

Unless you start adding dead yeast, which I wouldn't recommend, more yeast won't give you more flavor.  3 days fermentation should give you a very flavorful dough.  This could be another bake setup thing- as you get a faster bake time, you get a bit more char/a bit more flavor.  Other than that, you can get a bit more flavor by tweaking your formula.  2% salt is fully within the NY style.  You don't want to go higher than that, but try 2%.  Also, Best's dough probably doesn't contain sugar, but I'm sure that Joe's does.  Go with 1% sugar.

Okay, on to the oven setup.

First, unless you're doing a lot of pies at once, you should only need 1/2" UQTs.  I noticed that you have a lot of empty space on your oven shelf.  Size is a big player in great NY style pies, as it dictates cheese/sauce to rim ratio.  You might want to track down a tile cutter and create a larger square to bake on.  What is the dimension of your shelf?

There's nothing inherently special about UQTs. UQTs only begin to shine around 600.  In your oven, by themselves, UQTs aren't going to hit that.  The only way you can hit 600 is with the heat trapping ceiling scenario that I linked to earlier.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21503.msg217026.html#msg217026

The ceiling, by only allowing just enough air for proper combustion of the gas, traps heat in the lower area and, to an extent, stops heat from reaching the thermostat in the upper area and cycling the oven off.  I'm attaching a revised diagram below that shows the different temperature zones.

Track down some regular black glazed tiles and arrange them on the shelf above (black side down), filling in almost all the gaps with foil (leave just a single 1/2" gap down the middle for air flow)

The entire crunch thing is from a 7 minute bake.  Trim that to 5 minutes with a proper setup, and the crunch will be gone and you'll have just the right about of flop. The setup I'm describing should not only give you the intense bottom heat you were getting from steel, but, it will give you a matching amount of top browning heat as well, for a quick balanced bake.


Overall, these are all very nitpicky tweaks that I'm recommending.  You're very close.  All the pies you've made to date look great, and, if you could consistently produce any of them, you'd most likely become very rich, but I'd still like to see you doing something world class/better than Best and Joe's, which I definitely feel is within your grasp.

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2013, 06:15:30 AM »
After pondering the appearance of your crumb a bit more, the thought occurred to me that it might be a bit overfermented.  Normally, 3 days shouldn't be too long for this type of dough, but... I did some digging and found out that Mexico City is at almost 8,000 feet elevation. That's high, and that will definitely effect the way dough ferments and bakes.

Compensating for elevation is going to involved some trial and error (and hopefully some feedback from some of the forum members who bake at higher elevations), but, for now, I'd bump your water up to 64 and shorten your fermentation time to 2 days.

On the plus side, elevation is really great for oven spring.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 06:19:11 AM by scott123 »


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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2013, 08:29:45 AM »
Cake yeast should always be dissolved in water before adding the flour.  Salt should be added to the flour before combining the flour with the water. Oil, at least up to 3% oil, can be added to the cake yeast/water mixture before adding the flour.
scott123,

Is there a reason why you are suggesting that the cake yeast always be dissolved in water? And, for such a prehydration, what water temperature would you suggest? Also, with respect to the oil, is there a reason for adding the oil up front rather than later?

BTW, Professor Calvel once said that for yeast to be noticeable tastewise in the finished bread, which I interpreted from his dough recipes to mean fresh yeast (cake yeast), you would need about 2.5% (see Reply 73 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg120400/topicseen.html#msg120400).

Peter

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2013, 09:55:59 AM »
scott123,

Is there a reason why you are suggesting that the cake yeast always be dissolved in water? And, for such a prehydration, what water temperature would you suggest? Also, with respect to the oil, is there a reason for adding the oil up front rather than later?

Peter, both the moist and dry/clumpy starch used as the medium for yeast in cake and IDY dissolve great in water, on their own, but, once they're fighting for water with the flour, there's always the chance that they won't dissolve/disperse all that well. With my low knead doughs, I became more acutely aware of potential yeast dispersal issues and have been prehydrating the yeast ever since. Adding the yeast to the water and giving it a quick swirl is no more work than adding it to the flour, and I can rest easy that the yeast has been fully dispersed.

My policy on water temp is to go with whatever is easiest to work with along with the most consistent.  I know ADY has issues with lower water temps, so, for this reason, I no longer work with it nor do I recommend it to others.  As far as cake and IDY go, though, I feel that any water temp that produces a final dough temp between 55 and 80 is fine.  The only thing that I'm a stickler about is that the final dough temp be pretty much the same from day to day, so the water should, if possible, be a consistent temp.  If room temp is relatively consistent and not too high, that's ideal. If room temp is 70 and final dough temp is below 80, there's nothing wrong with that.  If tap water is used straight from the faucet, then it's a bit more complicated, as tap water temp varies.

We've talked about oil mixing approaches previously.  You spoke about how, in your experience, higher oil doughs had gluten development issues with early oil, but you didn't see any of these issues with lower oil early oil doughs.  I took your experience, combined it with my experience with lower oil doughs being unaffected by mixing order, felt that was enough data points to support the hypothesis, and, decided, at that point, to present it as fact  ;D I don't work with All Trumps any more, but I've made more than 300 All Trumps pies with 3% oil, all added before the flour, and, like All Trumps has a tendency to do, these all formed gluten like it was going out of style.

I've never made a 5+% oil dough, so I'll leave the recommendations for those types of doughs up to you, but, for NY (<4%), it's always oil into water for me and for the people I teach.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 10:19:28 AM by scott123 »

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2013, 12:52:50 PM »
Hello  Paolo

Regarding your cheese issues, have you tried using fresh or aged Oaxaca cheese.  If I recall correctly it melts similar to Polly-O.  Maybe you can get your hands on Oaxaca curd and make your own.  There are domesticated water buffalo in Mexico so you might be able to source your cheese that way-it has got to be cheaper than importing.

I also noticed some "grumos" on your baking surface.  Are you having issues with dough tearing, sticking, or just retrieving the pie?

Bob

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2013, 01:14:19 PM »
Peter, both the moist and dry/clumpy starch used as the medium for yeast in cake and IDY dissolve great in water, on their own, but, once they're fighting for water with the flour, there's always the chance that they won't dissolve/disperse all that well. With my low knead doughs, I became more acutely aware of potential yeast dispersal issues and have been prehydrating the yeast ever since. Adding the yeast to the water and giving it a quick swirl is no more work than adding it to the flour, and I can rest easy that the yeast has been fully dispersed.

My policy on water temp is to go with whatever is easiest to work with along with the most consistent.  I know ADY has issues with lower water temps, so, for this reason, I no longer work with it nor do I recommend it to others.  As far as cake and IDY go, though, I feel that any water temp that produces a final dough temp between 55 and 80 is fine.  The only thing that I'm a stickler about is that the final dough temp be pretty much the same from day to day, so the water should, if possible, be a consistent temp.  If room temp is relatively consistent and not too high, that's ideal. If room temp is 70 and final dough temp is below 80, there's nothing wrong with that.  If tap water is used straight from the faucet, then it's a bit more complicated, as tap water temp varies.

We've talked about oil mixing approaches previously.  You spoke about how, in your experience, higher oil doughs had gluten development issues with early oil, but you didn't see any of these issues with lower oil early oil doughs.  I took your experience, combined it with my experience with lower oil doughs being unaffected by mixing order, felt that was enough data points to support the hypothesis, and, decided, at that point, to present it as fact  ;D I don't work with All Trumps any more, but I've made more than 300 All Trumps pies with 3% oil, all added before the flour, and, like All Trumps has a tendency to do, these all formed gluten like it was going out of style.
scott123,

Thank you for your explanation. Cake yeast is not sold near where I live so I usually refer others to the advice that Tom Lehmann dispenses on how to use the cake yeast. His advice is usually to just crumple the cake yeast into the flour. However, in cases where the cake yeast is to be used to make a dough that is to be hand kneaded or where the knead time is to be less than about 4 minutes, he advocates that the cake yeast be prehydrated in warm water. The same advice is given for ADY and IDY. Some links to this topic are Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21637.msg218711/topicseen.html#msg218711 and Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21449.msg216597/topicseen.html#msg216597.

Peter

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2013, 01:41:16 PM »
Thanks, Peter, that's good to know.  It looks like Tom and I are in a somewhat similar ballpark.  My dough, is, indeed, in the vicinity of a 4 minute knead (perhaps a bit more now that I use a more overkneading proof 13.2% protein flour), although time is incredibly relative depending on equipment. We also seem to part ways with the prehydration temp.  I don't know if he's ramping the temp as a kind of mini-proof/yeast wake-up, but I don't subscribe to that concept in the slightest.  The starch in both CY and IDY dissolves just fine in cool water as it does warm.  As far as I know, there's no possible downside to adding refrigerated IDY (how I recommend storing IDY) or CY straight to 55-75 deg. water. With no extra work and no potential negative ramifications on the yeast to water side, and potential dispersal issues, regardless of how improbable, on the yeast to flour side, I'm going yeast to water every time.

Offline Camaro10

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2013, 04:01:02 PM »
Question Scott....Why cake yeast? What does it do differently than IDY?

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2013, 04:25:23 PM »
Question Scott....Why cake yeast? What does it do differently than IDY?

There is a contingent of forum members, myself included, who believe that cake yeast produces a slightly better oven spring than IDY or ADY.  There are also those that don't  ;D  I think cake yeast, for the home baker, is a bit moot, in that I believe the alleged improved oven spring only occurs if the cake yeast is very fresh, and supermarket cake yeast is a crap shoot.  If one has access to fresh cake yeast and in a position to make a lot of pizzas (or throw a lot of yeast away), then I think that's the way to go.  Until I start selling 100 pies a day, though, I'm sticking with IDY. 

A few years back my local bakery was selling 1 lb. blocks of yeast for $2, but after doing this for about 5 years, they switched to 2 lb. blocks for $5. As it was, I was throwing away most of the 1 lb. blocks, so that ended my source.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2013, 04:37:20 PM »
Thanks, Peter, that's good to know.  It looks like Tom and I are in a somewhat similar ballpark.  My dough, is, indeed, in the vicinity of a 4 minute knead (perhaps a bit more now that I use a more overkneading proof 13.2% protein flour), although time is incredibly relative depending on equipment. We also seem to part ways with the prehydration temp.  I don't know if he's ramping the temp as a kind of mini-proof/yeast wake-up, but I don't subscribe to that concept in the slightest.  The starch in both CY and IDY dissolves just fine in cool water as it does warm.  As far as I know, there's no possible downside to adding refrigerated IDY (how I recommend storing IDY) or CY straight to 55-75 deg. water. With no extra work and no potential negative ramifications on the yeast to water side, and potential dispersal issues, regardless of how improbable, on the yeast to flour side, I'm going yeast to water every time.
scott123,

I am pretty sure that the prehydration of the yeast that Tom talks about is a small part of the total formula water that is at the desired or prescribed prehydration temperature. That amount of the prehydration water typically comes to about 4-5 times the weight of the yeast. The rest of the formula water should be of a temperature to achieve the desired finished dough temperature.

Peter


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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2013, 04:43:00 PM »
Peter, thanks for the clarification.

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2013, 04:44:28 PM »
Question Scott....Why cake yeast? What does it do differently than IDY?
Camaro10,

I excepted an article on the different forms of yeast by Tom Lehmann in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7465.msg64349.html#msg64349. In terms of nomenclature, fresh yeast, cake yeast, brick yeast, wet yeast and compressed yeast are all the same.

Peter

Offline Camaro10

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2013, 06:23:49 PM »
Thanks guys

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2013, 09:37:05 PM »
Scott123, I think know what quality of tomatoes you are referring to. Itís actually very difficult to get your hands on them in Mexico City since virtually all of it gets exported. Although I donít know why for sure, my best guess is that since fresh fruit and produce is so cheap in general thereís no point in even trying to sell it here when the producers can sell it at a premium as an export product. As far as getting those amazing tomatoes in a canned form I am not currently aware of anyone doing it. I havenít researched as thoroughly as I could (yet) but it seems a pretty safe bet to say that they arenít. I havenít been to my local walmart lately to get you a picture of the current brands of tomatoes, but Iíll make sure to take it when I do.

I donít see canned crushed tomatoes on any of the product lists from the importers I work with, but Iíll ask them and see. Out of curiousity, why are crushed tomatoes more flavorful than the whole? Concerning the regional tomato producers, there are plenty I know of (some of them are even technically inside the ďmetropolitan areaĒ but I havenít had a chance to go and speak to them). The chances of them canning their products are probably slim, but itís another one of your various recommendations Iíll be trying alongside your comments concerning, olive oil, cake yeast dissolved in water, salt, oil percentage and my mixing process.

Iíll be getting my lower protein ďHoja de PlataĒ flour this week. Iíll get you photos of my doughs after kneading with the different flours Iím using. For my next several trials Iíll give 1% sugar a shot.

The picture of my oven setup was taken after I had already taken out 2/3rds of the tiles. Iíll get  a picture of the full setup next time, Iíll give only one layer of UQTís a shot also. My oven dimensions are 23 inches wide by 15 inches tall by 16 inches deep.

As far as getting bigger tiles, it looks pretty difficult. After calling a lot of stores and manufacturers it seems that thereís only one company that makes UQTís in Mexico called Klinker. They told me that the currently only make a 12x6 inch tile which is what Iím currently using. Later on in the week Iím getting my black glazed tiles so I can modify my oven to your diagramís standards. Iíll attach pictures of my oven setup once I get everything in place, to make sure I'm doing it properly.

I have read a bit concerning elevation, ever since I started my baked goods business I realized I was going to have to change a few things to get the ďsea levelĒ recipes to taste perfect. Problem was I didnít have any idea of what ďhigher hydrationĒ actually meant in percentage numbers. Iíll be doing a two day rise with 64% hydration for my next trial.

Thanks for the support and positive feedback. Even though Iíve only been participating for a few weeks this forum will very surely be the difference between my pizzeria selling something good, and something excellent.

Paulo

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2013, 12:04:42 AM »
Paulo, crushed tomatoes are considerably more flavorful than whole because whole tomatoes, in order to survive the rigors of processing and still be intact, have to be made with relatively underripe tomatoes, while crushed tomatoes are made from riper ones.

Your reasoning sounds on the money regarding lack of access to the exported tomatoes.  Keep your nose to the ground, though, and attack every possible lead- and never give up.  Even after you open and are successful, still keep an eye out for better tomatoes.

Re; the flour, just to be clear, something looks a little bit off, but I'm not, at this point suggesting you try other flours.  If you do end up trying something else, you definitely want to stick to 13% protein or higher malted flours. I'm pretty sure that correcting for elevation with a shorter fermentation will go a long way to showcase the quality of your present flour.

If you're oven is 16" deep, that means that you want a hearth that's 16 x 16 and a ceiling that covers all 16 x 23 on the shelf above it (minus 1/2" gap for air flow). The tiles you're using look fine. Is there any chance you can track down equipment to cut them so you can hit that 16 x 16 dimension?

Member Jackie Tran (Chau) does a mean NY style pie and he's in Albuquerque, NM at 5,000 feet, while you're at 8,000.  Hopefully he'll chime in with some of his expertise.  I think we might end up going farther north with the water (65 and higher), but, for now, let's see what 64 does.

Keep up the good work! You're on the right track   :)

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2013, 02:15:52 AM »
Hello Bobino414,

Iíve never made a pizza with Oaxaca cheese, although I do eat it frequently. Even though it could be quite good, Iím trying to get as close as possible to an authentic NY street style which means aged mozzarella. Iíve never compared it to Polly-O, but youíre probably right on the melting properties, although taste Iím guessing would be very different. I could definitely get my hands on Oaxaca curd or even just buy it fresh, itís dirt cheap if you know where to buy it. Actually, I once read an article about how fresh Oaxaca cheese is a direct descendent of fresh mozzarella. If I can find it Iíll post the link.

Grande is going to be super expensive, the problem is I did a 6 person blind taste test with grande,  sorrento, sargento, polly-O, and a locally (Bronx) produced aged mozzarella last time I was in NY and Grande blew everything else away. From my very many pizza trials, one of the main things Iíve noticed is that a lot of food for Mexicans relies heavily on the cheese. Itís what they notice the most and how they usually choose what pizzeria/taco joint/quesadilla place to go to.

 As far as water buffalo go, Iíve actually tried fresh buffalo mozzarella from different ranches in Mexico but they were all awful (as in unedible). At some point I may consider a more upscale elite/Neapolitan style restaurant using fresh mozzarella, and in that case I would most likely make my own from Mexican water buffalo. But after a lot of research, a lot of trials and asking potential customers a lot of questions, it seems aged mozzarella is my safest bet for this first venture.

Paying import fees, transport and the most expensive aged mozzarella Iíve found is a risky decision, and one I hope I donít regret. But at the same time I also believe it will be the difference between having amazing NY style pizza in Mexico City and just being another restaurant selling something thatís ďalmost thereĒ. Nonetheless, in appreciation for your interest I promise I will do a pizza trial using fresh Oaxaca cheese, take pictures and let you know how it melted/tasted.

Nope, no issues with retrieving the pies or anything of the sort. The ďgrumosĒ haha are an experiment that went HORRIBLY wrong. My large wooden pizza peel was still in the mail so I tried to dress a 14Ē pie on an aluminum sheet pan. It didnít come off easily (or maybe ďat allĒ would be more accurate) which gave me what I baptized as my first Toucan Pizza. Thatís honestly how it came out of the oven, yikes.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2013, 02:30:21 AM »
Scott 123,

Great tip on the crushed tomatoes, Iíll find them instead of the whole. Iíll also keep my eyes open for better tomatoes, even if itís not very commercial it would still probably be much cheaper than paying imported products. Iíll make a point to dedicate more time to it.

In the case of the flour, Iíll keep using the same Alta ProteŪna for now switching the other variables such as fermentation times and hydration. That way I can have the full picture before trying a different protein percentage.

I had misunderstood what you meant by cutting them, I thought you were talking about getting much larger tiles. I have access to equipment for cutting tiles, Iíll make sure to do so to get a perfect fit.

64 it is!

Offline Essen1

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2013, 03:23:55 AM »
I have no idea what "Joe's on Carmine" pizza is like.  :(

Never had it and can't really comment on it, which is a bummer. But...I think some pics are in order so we all know what Joe's pies look like.

http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/joes-pizza-new-york-4?select=iYtWAyzD9Ikm9CnY2usCKw#iYtWAyzD9Ikm9CnY2usCKw

PizzaSean...that dough/crust should be relatively easy to be recreated. For a home oven, that is.

I'm sure Scotty123 is on it already  ;D
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein


 

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