Author Topic: Joe's on Carmine St.  (Read 16314 times)

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Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2013, 04:51:53 PM »
Scott,

I had already written a long reply explaining everything in detail and then my computer crashed erasing all of it, so for sake of time Iíll bullet point it.

ē   Thereís another good Mexican brand that makes pizza ovens, and they seem more potent than the San-Son
ē   Their ovens reach 665F
ē   Internal oven chamber dimensions: 1.3m wide x 0.27m tall x 0.92m deep
ē   Made completely out of stainless steel
ē   Has 4 U-type burners
ē   ďPerimetralĒ high temperature gasket
ē   Weighs 320 kg
ē   Kcal/hr:320
ē   BTU/hr: 120,000
ē   LP Gas consumption m3/hr: 1.088

Their factory is in the city half an hour away, so I got an appointment for Friday of next week. This is all the info I can get without actually going to see it. Let me know if anything looks terrible enough as to cancel or pospone my appointment. Website link is at the bottom, the ďPizzaĒ model is the larger one and the ďPizzinoĒ is the smaller. The only difference in interior measurements for the smaller Pizzino is that instead of being 0.92m deep, itís only 0.48m deep. Width and heigh is the same. The smaller oven is obviously less practical for volume but itís still at 100,000 BTUís per hour which could maybe be beneficial? The large oven costs about $3,000 with delivery and the smaller one costs just a little under $2,000.

http://www.coriat.com.mx/productos/productos/hornos-para-pizza/horno-para-pizza


Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2013, 05:27:04 PM »
Peter,

I didnít know Sbarro had filed for bankruptcy, I read their Wikipedia page and also didnít know that they are originally from NY. I guess you could categorize them as being in the highest NY Style TF bracket, although Iím almost certain their crust in Mexico is thicker than the US locations. As far as the mall location being busier than Dominoís that makes sense to me. As I have said before: people in general do not like Dominoís in Mexico. They order it because itís dirt cheap, filling and will be at your doorstep in under 30 minutes. All the mall locations Iíve seen are usually pretty slow, because people have other options. If theyíre already out of the house and have a better option, even if it is a little more expensive, it appears that most of the time people pick something else to eat. But this is all just my personal opinion. *Iím nowhere near your expertise of being able to tell what percent of salt is in a crust simply by trying it haha.

Thatís great that you get down to Mexico so often, you certainly travel around the country more than I do. The fact that everyone in your family speaks Spanish certainly has itís advantages. One way or another this is a third world country and that means everybody is hustling like crazy to make ends meet, which usually means trying to take advantage of paying customers, especially tourists. The growing trend in pizza consumption seems apparent to me too, pizza is something that plays exactly into Mexican culture when it comes to food: carb base, cheese, sauce (salsa) and meat. 90% of the most consumed food items in Mexico contain those 4 ingredients and pizza (along with hamburgers) is the easiest ďinternational cuisineĒ dish for people to understand. If I had to bet, Iíd say you could start a very successful pizzeria chain with ANY style of pizza in Mexico and have it work as long as you were using quality ingredients and understood the very, very sensitive price point issues. Hopefully people will consider my ďPizza Making Forum PiesĒ a better option than Sbarroís, Dominoís or anyone else for that matter. 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 05:29:13 PM by paulo.vllrr »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2013, 06:20:09 PM »
Paulo,

Sbarro makes a 17" pizza (it used to be 18") and the thickness factor is, indeed, on the high side for a NY style. From a thickness factor standpoint, I am reminded of the many "Ray's" pizzas that are sold in the U.S. As such, they are often viewed as chain NY style pizza, not the kind of pizza you plan to make. One of the big problems that Sbarro's has outside of the U.S. is finding reliable sources of ingredients, including flour and mozzarella cheese, at reasonable prices. And you can't have just one source. You need a second, or even third source, if the primary source can't deliver for some reason.

Peter

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #103 on: July 05, 2013, 01:55:33 AM »
Scott,

Hereís this weekís test results. First two pics are dough off the hook, third is from the bottom in a glass container, at least that's what I understood you wanted. Fourth is after balling, fifth is 7 hours before baking.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #104 on: July 05, 2013, 01:59:34 AM »
First is after reball and second is after 2 Ĺ hours room temp rise. Last pic is the back of my oven, the bottom deflector is about Ĺ inch away from the back and the hearth is about ĺ-1 inch away from the back of the oven. Dough temps are all nearly identical to last weekís, but I have them all if you need them.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #105 on: July 05, 2013, 02:47:05 AM »
Oven Temps after 1:45 preheat
hearth center: 608F
hearth edge: 596F
bottom of tile ceiling center: 605F
bottom of tile ceiling edge: 569F
top of tile ceiling edge: 518F
thermostat temp: 482F
oven ceiling center: 500F
oven ceiling edge: 502F

Wow, 608 in an oven not meant to go over 485 that's crazy. It may be very normal to some people here but personally I didn't know this was possible. Onto the pies!

Both 14 inches, TF 0.075 5 minute bake time
First pizza: fresh mozz, grana padano. Excellent browning, it got a little burnt on one side and had a few pale spots on the other but that was my own fault for forgetting to rotate (sorry, had already been working 14 hours straight). The top browning was very, very good in my opinion and the undercrust also looked quite nice. The crust tasted wonderful, great flavor. It had some good NY chewiness going on but just the same as last time, the outermost part of the crust was still crunchy. Definitely not as much as last week's, but it was still there.

I pushed the rim out as much as I possibly could, I had about 1/2 inch of bare rim and even with that I still got an enormous crust! Nice oven spring also, as far as taste DEFINITELY my best crust so far but that crunchiness has gotta go. I'm a little embarrased to admit that I honestly don't remember how much a NY street style slice should flop when picked up, out of everything that I made a tastebud-mental note to remember last time I was up, that's the one thing I never thought about. So I don't really have an opinion on that, nevertheless here's the picture.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #106 on: July 05, 2013, 03:22:45 AM »
Second pie, prosciutto di parma. I didnít take all the readings the second time, but I did take hearth center which was 572F. That is quite a drop and this was already after 15 minutes. After seeing that I thought that the other temps were probably a bit irrelevant, but if you need me to get all of them before every pie that goes in, no problem. I rotated (opened door, slid out pie, rotated 180 degrees, then put back in) this pie at 2:30 then put back in for another 2:30.

As you can see I had some trouble with the shape, I forgot to put flour on the peel which made it very difficult to slide the pizza off into the oven. The shape stretched the dough way too thin in some parts but even with that I got some pretty nice top browning on the crust. Although, again the crunch was back and this time with a vengeance. I donít know if it was the shape or what but this felt much crunchier then the first, even though it was baked for the same amount of time in a slightly cooler oven. Could be just me though.

In the fourth picture you can very clearly see the different layers in the crust. Does the dark brown bottom part look too thick to you? Iím comparing it to a bunch of side shots I have from my favorite NY pizzerias and Iím not seeing that thick of a brown bottom on any of the places that have TF's similar to my 0.075. Undercrust was good, but didnít have any small black spots like the first.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 03:31:40 AM by paulo.vllrr »

Offline scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #107 on: July 06, 2013, 07:49:24 PM »
First topic. The oven.

Basically, on paper, the Coriat is the second most powerful gas oven I've ever come across and the most powerful oven on the market today.

Blodgett 1000 (vintage): 68 btu/sq. inch
Coriat: 65 btu/sq. inch
Marsal MB: 55 btu/sq. inch
san son ZPRZ oven: 30 btu/sq. inch

That brings a very big smile to my face, since an underpowered burner is very difficult to work around.

There are other considerations, but, before I get into those, I think it will be helpful for you, as you look at these ovens, to fully comprehend the thermodynamics involved.

Warning: This is going to get a bit scholastic (and, yes, there will be homework, and yes, you will be tested :) )

Water and air flow very similarly.  This is why cars are tested for aerodynamics by placing them in flowing water with dye to see what elements are creating drag. It's easy to think of a gas oven as a box filled with hot air, but, in reality, it's a box with holes at the bottom and top, with heated air flowing upward and out.

In order to understand the flow of heated air in both the oven you're buying and your home oven, here's an example.

Imagine that all elements of your home oven are glued in place. Now, flip the oven so top is bottom, bottom is top.  In the chamber where the burner is, start pouring water.  The water will

1. pour into the main oven chamber through the slits
2. hit your bottom deflector
3. flow laterally/to the edges of that deflector
4. pour down to the tile ceiling
5. collect on the ceiling
6. flow through the gap to the secondary ceiling (metal pan)
7. flow around the secondary ceiling to the top of the oven
8. leave the oven through the top vent

It's a bit of of an oversimplification, but, When upright, heat flows in the identical fashion as the water in this example. Once you can visualize the heat flowing around the bottom deflector, and, to a very large extent, bypassing the quarry tiles, you can understand what to look for in relation to deflection in a commercial oven.

In a commercial oven, if you have the burner directly blasting the bottom of the stones, just like the bottom of your pizza burned with quarry tiles directly over the heat, the stones will get comparatively hotter than the ceiling and your undercrusts will bake too quickly as well.  Your pan on the bottom- the deflector, that's what you're looking for in a commercial oven.  Out of every element, that's the most important because it decides the difference between evenly and unevenly baked pizza.

I bring this up because the Coriat oven has no deflection.You can see when they lift up the stones, it's a straight path to the burner.

Offline scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #108 on: July 06, 2013, 07:51:15 PM »
Now, this is not necessarily a deal breaker.  If given the choice between a woefully underpowered oven (san son) and an oven with btus to spare, but with deflection issues, I'm going with the btus.  Swapping out burners is close to impossible, while adding a deflector might not be all that difficult.

Here's the homework :) Watch the end segment (36:55 on) of this video a few times:

Food Tech - Pizza


This gives you a really good perspective of how the Marsal handles deflection

In the screen shot below, I've outline elements that I'm calling the 'baffle' and the 'deflector'. The baffle is just a piece of metal that creates an air channel up the side wall (there is a baffle on both sides). The deflector is a shallow metal box that sits between the burner and the stone.  They've removed all but one of the deflectors so you can see the burner and they've also removed a metal plate that sits on the deflectors that the stones sit on.

Your home oven doesn't have baffles, but it matches up with the bottom deflector in the same manner. Yours is metal, then air gap, then stone. Marsal's is metal, air gap, metal, then stone- which, as far as thermodynamics goes, is pretty much the same thing (the air gap is the critical component).

As you look at the Coriat (or the San Son), you're going to want to see how the hot air bypasses the stone, and, if it doesn't bypass the stone, you want to start thinking about how you might fashion your own homegrown deflection. Something as simple as a piece of sheet metal and a few steel washers for the stones to sit on (and create an air gap), might do the trick, but it will most likely be a bit more involved.  A home oven can work fine without baffles, but I think you'll want baffles in a commercial oven.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 07:53:51 PM by scott123 »

Offline scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #109 on: July 06, 2013, 08:08:53 PM »
So, basically, long story short, the information to get from Coriat is basically the same photos/info that I recommended getting from San Son. The Coriat advertising is giving us some photos, but bigger, clearer photos would go a long way in determining what's going on.

Also, speaking of the Coriat advertising, from the photo below, it looks like there might be a baffle (black object). It's hard to tell by the photo, though. You definitely want a closeup of that.

Lastly, looking at the photo of the inside of the marsal, I am reminded of their brick ceiling.  As you considering mods, you should be considering a firebrick ceiling as well, since it's highly unlikely any of these ovens will come with one.  Since the ceilings probably won't support weight, you'll most likely need to create a u shaped frame that sits on the floor and elevates the brick ceiling.

It probably wouldn't hurt to bring photos with you of the brick ceiling, the baffle and deflection and talk to Coriat about customization.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 08:13:31 PM by scott123 »


Offline scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #110 on: July 08, 2013, 07:08:36 AM »
Iíll take it from your tomato post that you believe these to be one of my better options, if I choose the canned tomato route?

My eye caught Cirio for two reasons. 1. They seemed to get good reviews from others 2. The aseptic packed (boxed) Cirio chopped tomatoes look a lot like they could be an equivalent to our crushed tomatoes (made from a riper tomato than whole tomatoes).  Can you get your hands on the boxed version?

I donít have a real answer for how cheap I can get ripe plum tomatoes, or if theyíre available year round.

I would definitely put the time in investigating this, as I'm relatively certain that this should give you both the highest quality sauce at the lowest price point.

67% hydration, 3% oil, everything else the same. Itís already in the fridge cold fermenting.

Next, 68%. 2% oil. I'll talk about flop and crunchiness in my next post.

The texture of the crust after it cools does get pretty tough, and definitely doesnít taste too good. I agree with trying out the softer flour, what protein percentage do you recommend I shoot for?

First, I want to see what 68% water does, then we'll start dialing down the protein level by blending with a weaker flour.

The bottom deflector is 1 inch from the back wall and just about 2 inches from the sides, on either side. Does that sound good or should I get a pan thatís larger?

That's fine.

Thanks for the tips in the last paragraph about baking, Iíll keep them in mind. Iíll also give doming a shot tomorrow, which I had completely forgotten about it.

You only need to dome if the bottom is baking faster than the top, which I don't think you're seeing presently.

And lastly, I've been curious for awhile now: do you own a pizzeria(s) or do you just do this as a hobby?

Thank you for your kind words. I'm a life long New Yorker (sixth borough), who, over the course of around 25 years, went from being an insatiable pizza consumer to, within about the last 10 years, a complete and all consuming obsessive. Within the last two years, I've begun consulting professionally and have a few successful clients.

If I remember correctly, I owe you a couple pictures of my ovenís steam vent, here you go


I think your oven setup is in good shape, but, if you want to take it a bit further, you can insulate the probe.  If you look at the vent picture, you'll see that the probe is clipped in place.  It's not that hard to unclip it.  Once unclipped, you can wrap it in high temp insulation, wrap that in foil and then rest it on your second ceiling (top metal pan).  Obtaining high temp insulation is no easy task- at least not a small amount of it.  Traditional fiberglass insulation has binders in it that will produce acrid smoke in the oven.  Rock wool is supposed to be suitable, but I've seen rock wool with binders as well.

Some brands of the fiberglass pipe insulation is binder free, and, if you peel the paper off, might work

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Frost-King-1-2-in-x-3-ft-Fiberglass-Pipe-Insulation-F10X/100111209#.UdqbQGqZH0k

It's not very pliable, though, so you'd want to get it for the smallest diameter pipe possible.  Loose fill blown in insulation can be binder free and also might work. Perhaps, rather than placing the probe in the bigger hole you can tuck in in the wall of the insulation.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-Atticat-Loose-Fill-Blown-In-Insulation-L38A/100541755#.UdqaEmqZH0l

If you live anywhere near a ceramics supplier, they might have a small quantity of something that could be suitable.  You just need enough to give you a 1/2" to 1" diameter around the probe.

Offline scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #111 on: July 08, 2013, 08:24:14 AM »
First two pics are dough off the hook, third is from the bottom in a glass container, at least that's what I understood you wanted.

Actually, I wanted a shot of the bottom of the glass container right before stretching. That's the shot that tells you if the yeast quantity is correct and if the dough is properly fermented.

Oven Temps after 1:45 preheat
... ...
oven ceiling edge: 502F


Let's see what 2 hours brings you.  Your gas bill might be a bit higher, but, based on the thermostat temp of 480, I think we can push this a bit more.

I'm curious, can the lower deflector be safely removed after pre-heating?

Also, from here on out, don't worry about edge temps, just center temps/probe temps. (hearth center, ceiling center, secondary ceiling center, probe temp, oven ceiling temp)

Wow, 608 in an oven not meant to go over 485 that's crazy. It may be very normal to some people here but personally I didn't know this was possible.


The beauty of science :) If you have an understanding of how hot air behaves, you can do a lot with it.

It had some good NY chewiness going on but just the same as last time, the outermost part of the crust was still crunchy. Definitely not as much as last week's, but it was still there.

Throughout this process we've celebrated plenty of victories and I expect to celebrate many more, but, in the midst of all our positive developments, this is one development that concerns me.  I don't think it's insurmountable, but... from the flop photo, it appears you're getting a huge amount of flop (more than typical), so we can't really push the hydration that much higher to fight the crunchiness in the rim. We're going to increase the hydration, work on the stretch (see below) and, hopefully, with a 2 hour pre-heat, decrease the bake time a bit further and then proceed from there. This crunchiness might be related to elevation or maybe it's a flour thing. We'll see.

How much crunch are you getting at the tip? None, right?

Try one pizza with the oven off- maybe the last pie.

You're reballing later in the fermentation, right?  For now, get rid of that. I think, with a little less oven spring, the denser dough might not end up so crunchy on the rim. Maybe.

I pushed the rim out as much as I possibly could, I had about 1/2 inch of bare rim and even with that I still got an enormous crust!

Don't be afraid to push out an incredibly small rim.  As long as you don't press the very edge, you're good, but you can go all the way to 1/16" from the edge.  Your present rim size correlates with a lot of the NY style pizzas found on the forum, but it bears no resemblance to Joe's.

The big rim exacerbates a dough distribution issue.  Too much dough in the rim, too much dough in the near rim area and not enough dough on the tip. It's not easy to achieve but NY should have a very slight rim and then a flat, even thickness crust on the entirely of the non rim area of the pie.

Mastering the edge stretch seems to be the most difficult aspect of NY style for pizza makers to achieve, and, from an aesthetics perspective, it's the most important. Take a look at

Pizza Town Stretch
(00:21 to 00:27)
Tony Gemignani - How to Make Pizza Dough Fundamentals
(1:30 to 1:50)
How To Hand Slap Pizza Crust
(4:04 to 4:50)

There's no more effective way, imo, to ensure that the thickness at the tip is identical to the thickness close to the rim.

Another way to ensure that the tip doesn't thin is, as you're finger pressing, leave a little mound of dough in the center. You won't always need this mound, but, for now, it's a good insurance policy.

It's not a huge priority, but, if possible, could you start taking photos of the final pizzas in daylight?  It helps to bring out the true colors of the pie.  It's less for me and more for PR purposes.  You're at a point where photos taken in daylight will get you more oohs and ahs, and, while you might not end up having a huge international clientele, good press, where ever it occurs, is always a plus, even in these preliminary stages. Don't worry about daylight shots for dough or anything else, just the final pie. And, like I said, only if possible. If you're baking at night, that's obviously not an option.

Also, speaking of aesthetics, let's talk saucing.  There's a little leeway when it comes to sauce placement, but, generally speaking, sauce should never be on the rim.  Sauce should be spread to about 1/2" in from the rim and then cheese 1/2" in from there.  It's also a good habit to spread a tiny bit more sauce to the near rim area than to the center of the pie. What are you using to spread the sauce?

The crunchy rim is a bit of a mystery, and, I think, as you move forward, the improvements aren't going to be quite as dramatic, but I'm confident that, as you continue on, the pies will only get better and better. It's all coming together.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2013, 03:02:25 AM »
Ovens: The more scholastic it gets, the better hehe. Your educational posts save me many, many hours of scouring tidbits of info throughout the forum and the internet in general. So anything you have the time and desire to post, Iím more than happy to read!

ďUnderstanding how different pizza ovens workĒ has been on my list of things to do for awhile. Although Iíve been reading about it sporadically over the past 10 months tonight I took a good few hours to finally learn as much as possible in that time frame. Between the food tech video, your brilliantly simple explanation and lots of other videos/google searches, I think I could accurately describe how different kinds of pizza ovens work without having to look at notes. I also went through Marsal & Sons website for the fourth time to really understand what theyíre doing different. For now, letís say that the Coriat or something similar is all Iím going to have access to. But that doesnít mean Iím not going to do everything I can to get a M&S oven down here. Those ovens, as friends from my childhood would say, are ďpimpĒ.

I believe I understood everything you said about the Coriat oven. It has BTUís to spare, would have to be modified with deflection (and an air gap) between the burners and stones, would need to have a baffle (which it may already have) and lastly, that I should find a way to install a 1 1/2 inch arched fire brick ceiling and rear chamber. A suggestion of my own (which Iím obviously not sure of) would be to replace whatever second rate stones that surely come with the oven, with 2 inch thick Fibrament. Does that last bit sound about right?

Iíll get as much info and pictures as I possibly can on Friday. Iíve already requested for there to be a technician or company engineer present so as to answer the many questions Iíll be taking to them, as well as to discuss possible modifications to the oven. Letís see how much I can find out.

Tomatoes: I havenít seen the boxed Cirio chopped tomatoes anywhere. Iím looking for a way to contact their Mexican importers but the information is nowhere to be found. I wrote to Cirio HQ directly to see whoís bringing them.

68% oil, 2% oil, no reball, and no doming necessary with my current bake observations, check. Also, only take temps you mentioned.

Iíll see what I can do about insulating the probe, Iíll make sure that in the next couple of weeks I have something figured out.

Iíll get the glass container picture this Thursday. 2 hour pre-heat it is, my gas bill has gone up but Iím inching towards NY style pizza in Mexico City so a couple hundred dollars of gas is a small price to pay. Iím not sure how easy it would be to remove the lower deflector with the oven at that temperature, but Iíll give it a shot. What would be the benefit of this? Something along the lines of heating up the UQTís a bit more right before/while baking as to achieve a browner undercrust?

Nope, no crunch at the tip. Iíll give a pie a try with the oven off.

I am very aware that my dough stretching technique is faulty at best. I had already seen some of these videos but I think itís time for me to start setting aside another night of the week for just dough stretching. Iíve still only stretched about 100 pies in my entire life and that is nowhere near enough to get very good at it. Iíll study those videos as precisely as possible and start having dough-stretching nights.

I spread sauce with the worldís most annoying spoon, Iíll get a decent pizza sauce ladle as soon as I can, would you recommend a flat bottomed ďspoodleĒ or a regular curved bottom ladle?

I always bake at night, I run another business that usually keeps me busy Monday to Friday from 9 am till 10pm. And weekends are the only time when I can thoroughly study other businesses and read about actually managing a full service restaurant. What I can do, though, is ask my photographer friends to help me out with some sort of setup to get better looking pictures.

I agree that the crunchy rim is quite a mystery, I went from limp lifeless crusts to super-almost cracker-crunchy rims in about two pizza trials. But I also agree that each week there are improvements and that weíre slowly getting closer.

And lastly, itís great that you use the word ďobsessiveĒ to describe your relationship with pizza. I honestly donít think anyone can make life-altering pies (whatever style they choose) without taking it to that level. Iíll make sure to make it worth your while and get myself on the ďsuccessfulĒ list of the people youíve helped, even if I have to burn down my kitchen in the process  ;D
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:44:54 PM by paulo.vllrr »

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #113 on: July 12, 2013, 02:27:55 AM »
Ok so thereís good news and bad. Good is that the bottom hearth hit 620F after the 2 hour preheat. Other temps were 616 for the bottom of the ceiling, 570 for top of the ceiling, 505 for thermostat and 518 for oven ceiling. The other good news is that I finally pushed out a rim that didnít look like a doughnut.

The bad new isÖeverything else  :-D

First of all, the dough was impossible to work with. It was like trying to shape a bowl of soup, it was extremely wet and anytime I tried to do anything with it either just stuck or stretched uncontrollably. I attempted some of the techniques I saw in the videos but couldnít do anything, when I picked up the balls to stretch they just shot down as if they had weights. Hereís plenty of pictures of the dough: off the hook, right after balling, right before baking top, bottom and side.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #114 on: July 12, 2013, 02:57:33 AM »
And from there it got even worse. I tried to rotate the first pie after 2 minutes, but between the dough still being a little raw underneath and me using a wooden peel (my metal peel mod still isnít finished), the results were grim. 20% of the pizza got stuck on the hearth after 1 minute of fishing the pizza out, and the bit that was left behind charred up and smoked my entire house haha. I had the oven door open for another full minute while I scraped the charred bits off with a metal spatula, which obviously meant losing a LOT of heat for pie #2.
 
The second pie went in and I had to leave it in 6 minutes just to get it barely cooked, I didnít bother with pics or temps of the second. The first pie baked for "5" minutes but between all the chaos of it falling apart during the rotation and the time it took me to fish it out, Iíd say 6 - 6 1/2 minutes would be a good guess of actual bake time. Good flavor and very little (as in almost none) crunchiness. But because of the extended bake time, it was like eating a leather belt. Extremely chewy and literally difficult to eat, but the fact that there was no crunch intrigued me.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 03:30:41 AM by paulo.vllrr »

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2013, 01:14:55 PM »
Hereís as much information as I could get on the Coriat oven. Unfortunately, some of my questions were a complete mystery to everyone at the factory, including the director of operations. They also didnít have an oven that I could actually see on the inside, so the pictures are all from a store I tracked down that had one of their ovens on display. A lot of the information is incomplete, itís because no one could (or wanted) to answer, but  I was at the factory for 2 Ĺ  hours and at the store for another hour and did my absolute best to get as much as possible. Measurements are in inches.

-   Interior Dimensions of the oven: 51.5 wide x 19.75 deep x 10.6 tall 
-   The hearth is made out of ďceramicĒ, it looks like fire brick to me but Iím not sure.  Dimensions are 19 long x  13 wide by 1 thick. There are 3 slabs this size inside the oven.
-   The oven is made almost entirely out of 430 gauge stainless steel. This includes the walls, oven door, back wall and roof. From what I could measure everything I just mentioned was 2 inches thick. I could not get the info on what was going on inside the walls, roof etc. Simply because of the weight of the oven, I know that theyíre not solid 2 inch plates of steel. But whether or not thereís air or something else inside remains a mystery. Iíll keep trying to get this info.
-   No one could tell me whether or not the door was insulated inside. But, in the first picture you can see a kind of fiberglass tubing material that is used to seal the door. The picture is from one of their kitchen range ovens, even though the actual pizza oven didnít have it. I was assured that the pizza oven I bought would have it.
-   No one knew the weight of the oven floor, and the store did not let me weigh it. But I do a lot of lifting and could tell that each of the three slabs weighed about between 16-20 pounds.

There are no deflectors in the oven whatsoever, although the engineer who designs the ovens told me that in about two months they are coming out with a new model that apparently does. He didnít have real pictures, just a render to show me. I did my best to save a mental image, Iíll draw it and scan it to give you some idea. It does however come with baffles on both sides that are controlled  by two knobs on the outer part of the oven; you can see them in the pictures. They will NOT make any modifications whatsoever to their ovens.

I took well over a hundred pictures and made of a selection of the most relevant. Each picture is appropriately named, instead of listing them as I usually do.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2013, 01:31:53 PM »
more pics

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2013, 01:38:12 PM »
pics

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2013, 01:44:07 PM »
hearth pics

Offline paulo.vllrr

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  • Location: Mexico City
Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #119 on: July 14, 2013, 01:53:08 PM »
burners