Author Topic: Joe's on Carmine St.  (Read 17478 times)

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Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #120 on: July 14, 2013, 02:00:46 PM »
last pics


scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #121 on: July 19, 2013, 09:44:41 AM »
I believe I understood everything you said about the Coriat oven. It has BTUís to spare, would have to be modified with deflection (and an air gap) between the burners and stones, would need to have a baffle (which it may already have) and lastly, that I should find a way to install a 1 1/2 inch arched fire brick ceiling and rear chamber. A suggestion of my own (which Iím obviously not sure of) would be to replace whatever second rate stones that surely come with the oven, with 2 inch thick Fibrament. Does that last bit sound about right?

That's pretty much right, except for the stone replacement.  While this forum has seen some members get stones that are powdery from insufficient firing, there really aren't 'first rate' and 'second rate' stones.  It's more 'stones that work in a particular setting' and 'stones that don't work.'  I would wait and see what kind of stones you get before going with fibrament.

Iím not sure how easy it would be to remove the lower deflector with the oven at that temperature, but Iíll give it a shot. What would be the benefit of this? Something along the lines of heating up the UQTís a bit more right before/while baking as to achieve a browner undercrust?


The deflector drives more heat to the ceiling during the pre-heat, but, after the pre-heat, if you could remove it, you might be able to improve the between pie recovery, since the tiles will be in the direct line of fire and heat up quickly. It's not a big deal if you can't remove the deflector- just something to consider.

I spread sauce with the worldís most annoying spoon, Iíll get a decent pizza sauce ladle as soon as I can, would you recommend a flat bottomed ďspoodleĒ or a regular curved bottom ladle?


A spoodle:

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/8-oz-one-piece-solid-portion-spoon/922SPN8.html

Re; the last bake. Failures can be educational  ;D  The pre-heat numbers are especially encouraging.  Next batch, add back the re-ball and let's see how it impacts manageability.

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #122 on: July 19, 2013, 10:41:57 AM »
The oven

What I Like

All that stainless is sexy
I like the burner shape, number and distribution- very even
The baffles (while not really high enough) can be adjusted for top/bottom heat balance
Deflection is in the works

What I Don't Like (but should be able to be resolved)

The channel formed by the baffle doesn't extend into the main oven chamber/up the side wall (this can be resolved with an insert)
I'm 99% certain that this oven has no insulation (based on the fact you can see through the holes in the back wall to the outside of the oven)
1" thick hearth (can be replaced with 2")
There's a metal strip sitting on the stones (see photo below).  That strip doesn't sit on top of the stones when they're in place, right?

The Potential Dealbreaker

This oven has no central ceiling vent.  The darn thing is like swiss cheese.  I've never seen an oven like this.  Why build an oven that lets all it's heat out? There's holes in the back wall, holes all over the inner ceiling and holes all over the outer ceiling as well.  And, from what I can tell, no vent for a pipe to connect to. Based upon the position of all the vents, it seems like this might be meant to be used with a hood exhaust.  A restaurant wouldn't want the heat and carbon dioxide feeding into their kitchen, would they?

As far as oven modding goes... I know the burner on this is great, but, generally speaking, I think swapping out a weak burner for a stronger one would be out of the question.  I would never try it. Out of everything an oven manufacturer can do wrong, a weak burner is a dealbreaker. As far as this particular oven goes, homemade deflection shouldn't be a big deal.  Insulating the oven yourself may not be too much trouble, but you might need access to a welder, depending on how the oven is put together.  But sealing all the existing vents and adding a single central vent with an adapter for a pipe?  Perhaps.

I'm definitely not ruling out the Coriat, but it seems like a bit of work. I would talk to them and find out the reasoning behind the swiss cheese approach.

Btw, if you go with a Coriat, you're definitely going with the larger model, right?

Also, I'm PMing you my email for the additional photos. The mirror finish on the stainless is making it difficult to make out a few things.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:44:41 AM by scott123 »

Offline luismartinezt

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #123 on: July 20, 2013, 05:21:35 PM »
Hello everyone, new active member here.

As I posted already on my introduction, I am from Mexico as well and this thread was what made me step in and share some of my experiences with my recently started
pizza business. (You can check out our fb page here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Street-Pizzeria/510766645648971?ref=hl

I own the Coriat oven. At first, we were going to buy the larger model but at the end we opted for the small one to see how it performed and whatnot.
So, with some experience using this oven, I'll try and address some of the doubts about it as well as the modification I have planned for it.

First off, it is a good looking oven as Scott said before. We designed an open kitchen so we could display all the making process and it looks really great in there, I attached a pic of it as well. Second; yes, it does have some great and very well distributed burning power as the second attached image depicts.

As for the baffles: They are almost completely useless in my own opinion. While talking to the tech support team at Coriat, they tried and explained how is it that they work, however, I have used them in several different positions without changing the finished product much.

About the insulation, it does have pretty good insulation, as most of the heat that it leaves out is through the top air vents shown in pic no. 3 . Those are located only on one side of the oven, it also has a similar vent on the mid, back part.

The stones: They do come with those metal strips when packaged, however, after using it for about 2 weeks I realized there wasn't really a reason why they should be there
and came to the conclusion that they put them there only for shipping purposes and they actually belong to the sides, which makes way more sense as there is a slight gap that lets some heat escape through there. See pic 4 for correct position of metal strips.

My main problem with this oven is top browning; the stones do get really hot and because the ceiling is really high, the bottom usually gets burned if one waits until top is nicely browned. I have been addressing temporarily this problem by "doming" my pies for about one minute really close to the ceiling with the oven door ajar using a peel, which isn't very efficient as a lot of heat gets lost in the meanwhile.
I have in mind a modification, basically making a lower ceiling out of a metal structure holding some refractory (1 1/2) bricks I already have bought; that way it'll be a little more like the Marsal and Sons in pic no. 5.

I wanted to show a pic of my first pie today, showing the top lack of color with a perfectly cooked bottom, but for some odd reason the pie cooked evenly all the way through, top browned and everything, unlike the latter pies from today. You can check it out on the last 2 images attached.

Anyways, I just wanted to share some of my thoughts on the oven as I have already done personally with Paulo and can't wait to read your comments.





scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #124 on: July 20, 2013, 06:40:27 PM »
Luis, thanks for your informative post.  That's fantastic that the forum now has a Coriat owner and Paulo can see this oven in action.

The brick ceiling is definitely a good idea, but, imo, it's fairly low on the heat balancing to do list.  The baffles aren't making much of a difference for balance, because, presently, the baking chamber is leaking like a sieve- you can't really direct heat to the top of the pizza if the oven isn't trapping it. I am encouraged to see only two vents on the top, but, between the back and side walls, I count at least 3 more vents, totaling 5.  That's 4 too many.  A pizza oven, when the door is closed, should be a completely enclosed box with only one vent in the center top. Take a look at the photos below.  The vent on the top can be round (marsal) or rectangular (blodgett), and sometimes you might find it on a corner, but it's always only one vent.

With the heat exiting the oven chamber in multiple directions, I don't see the brick ceiling helping much.  If you want to take steps to resolve your heat balance issues, it's time to track down a good metal fabricator who can seal all the holes and add a vent in the top center. After sealing up the chamber and venting it correctly, then I'd add a steel plate and an air gap under the stone, and, then, if you still need a bit more top heat- then I'd start building a brick ceiling.

Thanks for clarifying the role of the metal strips.

Sharp looking place, btw. If it were me, I might bring the oven even closer to the customers, but, other than that, I like the overall aesthetic.

Btw, Toluca isn't that far from Mexico City.  When Paulo opens shop, does this mean that you two will be competitors?  ;D

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #125 on: July 21, 2013, 03:27:52 AM »
Scott: I'll get you the zipfile with the pictures as well as images from last week's pizza trial on monday since I'm currently out of town and without access to my home computer and camera. But overall it's been my best trial yet, I'll also answer the topics you brought up in your last two posts. Even  though Toluca is nearby it's still about 1 1/2 hours away from the neighborhood I'll be in. So there shouldn't be too much trouble with stepping on each other's toes but who knows, if all goes well we might get a nice Grimaldi's/Juliana's rivalry going hehe. It's nice to see other people taking interest in upping the current state of pizza in Mexico though, it was about time!

Luis: I'm glad you decided to start participating in the forum, only good things can come from more people working together.

The pictures of your first pie look great, great as in I've never seen a pizza with such a good looking crust ANYWHERE in Mexico. You mentioned you use a modified Lehmann dough formulation when we spoke, what does your fermentation process consist of? Is there anyway you could post more pictures of your pizzas: shot from straight above, side shots of slices so we can see the insides of the crust, a side shot with you holding up a slice so we can see how it flops and maybe a shot of an invidiual slice's undercrust? Pictures of your other pizzas (the ones without good top browning you mentioned) would also help. 

Also, if possible could you get readings of the hearth surface center and edge right before and after you bake a pizza?  Knowing how long you bake your pies for would also be great. Hmm, I seem to have morphed into Scott for this post haha.

I also agree that the place looks fantastic, nice clean look to it. I may just have to make a little road trip one of these saturdays and check it out for myself...

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #126 on: July 24, 2013, 03:55:14 AM »
Scott: Last week my brother was in town so I decided to look at my notes and repeat the dough formulation that had gotten the best ďreviewsĒ so far. I ended up repeating the exact same dough from Reply #77, that would be 64% hydration, 1% IDY (my CY had expired), 2% salt and 1% sugar. No oil. TF 0.08

The dough was a pleasure to work with, I was able to stretch it somewhat similar to how I saw in the videos you posted. I got my oven up to 620F after another 2 hour preheat and baked the first pie for 4:30. It came out a bit overbaked but other than that excellent. Great flavor, good crumb structure, very very good consistency and best of all: no crunchiness or leather-like chew (without being soft). The only two things that couldíve improved were a little less time in the oven and rotation. I haven't found the right aluminum yet but will have the metal peel soon. The second two pies while also great tasting, suffered from the loss of heat after the first pie. Itís amazing what a difference 30 degrees can make. The second and third pie baked for 4:30 minutes and were just barely done.

Even though my techinique is still way off and the pies donít look very professional, I at least feel like the taste and consistency is starting to come through. Iím going to repeat the exact same dough formulation again, let my oven preheat for 2 hours 15 minutes and do a 4 minute bake for my first pie. I believe thatís the time we were shooting for? Iím excited to see what results come out of this, it had never occurred to me that maybe (keyword:maybe) what we were missing before was the higher temperature more than a radically different dough formula. Weíll see, and as usual I await instruction/correction if anything I just mentioned seems way off.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 03:59:17 AM by paulo.vllrr »

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #127 on: July 24, 2013, 04:10:27 AM »
more pics

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #128 on: July 24, 2013, 04:17:34 AM »
For this weekís trial Iíll move the deflector after my second pie and see how that helps the hearth temp recovery time for the third. I moved a few things which should make it possible to slip out quickly.

Iíll get a spoodle on my next trip to NY, they donít sell them anywhere here (unless I steal one from a Dominoís).

Ovens: After last  weekís trial I feel that there is some good news and some bad news. The good news is that the lower chamber of my oven is only 30 degrees away from being the same maximum temperature as most professional deck ovens Iíve seen. Iíll be fiddling around with the probe next week but Iím sure we can get it up to 650 eventually. My main concern with the professional oven was that I needed to get my dough 90% of the way there before showing off the product to potential investors and for my general peace of mind. I didnít think it was possible for a house oven (with no cleaning cycle and no broiler) to be able to reach 650 or something close enough, but what this gives me is the chance to get my dough almost there without shelling out the investment right now.

This definitely changes my perspective on the final oven. If I donít need to buy it until I have the actual space and full investment,  I would probably feel better importing a Marsal, bad news is the much higher pricetag. The thing about the Coriat is that although it has some good upsides, you mention quite a few downsides that don't seem like there's any guarantees that they can be fixed, especially not by someone whose never done it before (referring to myself and welders). Iíve spoken to a few welders and for the massive amount of work that would need to be done Iím probably looking at around 6,500-7,000 dollars total for everything. Now, I know thatís still much cheaper than the Marsal but what if I spend all that to end up with a less than perfect oven? Seems like a lot of money to use on an experiment, what do you think? I always consider your thoughts and opinions extremely important but for such a serious part of the business, even more so.

Iíll ask them what on earth possessed them to cut holes ALL over their ovens, it makes no sense to me. And yes, if for some reason I end up getting the Coriat Iíde get the larger oven.

Sauce Update: This weekend I made the best tomato sauce (for pasta) I've ever made by using fresh picked organic cherry tomatoes. The difference between the cherry tomato sauce I've made with canned Cirio (cherry) and these were as if I was using a completely different fruit. I've already found a few organic plum tomato producers right outside the city that deliver year round and will be going to see them in a few weeks. Meanwhile, this week's trial will feature my first ever 100% fresh plum tomato sauce. I really should stop questioning your recommendations, I invariably end up doing what you say anyway and my whole "should I do it?" process seems to work for nothing other than waste an awful lot of time  :-D
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 04:27:06 AM by paulo.vllrr »

scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #129 on: July 25, 2013, 08:08:21 AM »
I ended up repeating the exact same dough from Reply #77, that would be 64% hydration, 1% IDY (my CY had expired), 2% salt and 1% sugar. No oil. TF 0.08

After all my recommendations, that got the best reviews?  Yeesh  ;D

I do think that oven temp is key, especially a higher balanced oven temp, but I think, with your elevation you're going to need more water.  Your rim is looking pretty darn crispy on this last bake.  It wasn't crispy?

You can go for a 2:15 pre-heat, but if you've been tracking your thermostat temp, you'll see that you're close to where it will cycle the oven off, so it might not buy you much more than what you're seeing now. If you want to go higher, then it's time, as you mentioned, to start playing around with your probe (don't worry, you won't go blind  :-D)

You're going to be fine tuning for a while longer.  Once you get the final pre-heat time/temp then I think you can dial in your formula a bit better.

Until you get a spoodle, get a set of these and use the 1 cup size to spread your sauce:
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 08:12:48 AM by scott123 »


scott123

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #130 on: July 25, 2013, 08:55:32 AM »
For this weekís trial Iíll move the deflector after my second pie and see how that helps the hearth temp recovery time for the third. I moved a few things which should make it possible to slip out quickly.

If you can attach the deflector in such a way that it can be removed, I think that will work nicely.

I didnít think it was possible for a house oven (with no cleaning cycle and no broiler) to be able to reach 650 or something close enough, but what this gives me is the chance to get my dough almost there without shelling out the investment right now.

I haven't really talked about this much because you've been making such amazing strides modding your home oven, but I think there's a pretty good chance that, if you're able to get a Marsal (or mod an oven to be Marsal-ish) you'll see a slight bump in quality from your home oven pies. I do know, for certain that your 2nd, 3rd and 4th pie recovery issues will vanish.

The thing about the Coriat is that although it has some good upsides, you mention quite a few downsides that don't seem like there's any guarantees that they can be fixed, especially not by someone whose never done it before (referring to myself and welders). Iíve spoken to a few welders and for the massive amount of work that would need to be done Iím probably looking at around 6,500-7,000 dollars total for everything.

I think you may want to talk to different welders, or perhaps describe the work needing to be done a bit differently.

I have been thinking about this.  You can buy fairly light gauge steel sheet, cut it with tin snips into rectangles and attach those with screws to cover the existing vents.  You might be able to do it with stainless steel sheet, but I think steel might be easier to work with. Neither will break your bank for the quantity you'll need.

To extend the baffles you'll want to bend sheet metal into a u shape. A brake (sheet metal bending machine) would be ideal for this task.  Maybe a high school metal shop would let you do some work there?  Bribe them with pizza  ;D If you can't bend the sheet metal in right angles, it might not be the end of the world to not have baffles running up the side walls.

The top center vent shouldn't be that expensive.  The adapter for a pipe should be available for purchase.  It might just be a matter of cutting a hole- perhaps with a sawzall.  The oven, right now, doesn't vent to the outdoors, and it looks like Mexican fire inspectors are fine with that, so, if worse came to worse, you could just do a vent the way the manufacturer did and drill a bunch of holes.  It's kind of ghetto, and definitely wouldn't pass code north of the border, but you might just drill the holes and pull pipe flush against the top of the ceiling with some wire. You might not even need the wire and you could just sit the pipe right on top.

The brick ceiling will most likely require some welding.  I'm picturing angle iron welded into multiple u shaped frames that connect via cross pieces to suspend a few rows of firebrick just below the ceiling.

I would bring this topic up in the main forum and solicit some ideas.  Jeff (shuboyje) is a metalworker and I'm sure he could come up with some workarounds. The DIY brick ceiling could definitely benefit from some group brainstorming, as metal ceiling ovens are quite common and many people could benefit from a reliable and cost effective approach. We had a member who was moving in the DIY brick ceiling direction (Buceriasdon), but he left the forum and passed away before having the chance to build one.

Meanwhile, this week's trial will feature my first ever 100% fresh plum tomato sauce. I really should stop questioning your recommendations, I invariably end up doing what you say anyway and my whole "should I do it?" process seems to work for nothing other than waste an awful lot of time  :-D

 :-D It doesn't hurt to try things out and come to your own conclusions. Besides, it doesn't happen much, but I have been known to be wrong  :-D

Seriously, though, if you go organic, be aware of your price points and potential margins.

Edit: After thinking about it for a couple minutes, I'd start a thread just for help figuring out the best way to do a brick ceiling and then another thread for all the other mods you're considering.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 09:02:17 AM by scott123 »

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #131 on: July 25, 2013, 05:33:31 PM »
Haha I think I described my last trial the wrong way. That dough got the best reviews but Iím sure it has a LOT to do with the oven temp. I had only done one trial before that that reached 620F, and that went horribly, horribly wrong. Iím positive that once I start incorporating higher hydration, higher sugar, adding oil AND then baking it at a decent temperature without crushing/incinerating the pie mid-bakeÖitís going to blow todayís and last weekís crust out of the park.

The other thing I messed up was saying  that my first crust was not crispy (although not as crunchy as others), but I credited that to the overbake. Thatís an assumption though, it could turn out crispy again today with a 4 minute bake. Unfortunately I only have one pie each week that really counts so weíll see what happens. The second and third pies last week were not crispy, but they were also at a lower temperature, cooked longer and werenít nearly as well browned.  Let me see how hot the oven gets today, how the first crust comes out, what happens when I remove the deflector and after that weíll make the relevant adjustments for next week, including the probe.

I know exactly where to get those measuring cups for sauce spreading.

Iím saving all of your recommendations on the oven modding in one specific file. I want to talk to a few other people who could do the mods and get their opinions buy showing them specific specs of what needs to be done. I have access to machinery for bending sheet metal, so that wouldnít be a problem.

The best way to describe Mexican fire inspectors would be ďlaid backĒ haha. Just like many other things down here, restaurant regulations are very loose and as long as youíre not building a bonfire on top of people tables, you can do/not do whatever you want. Nobody cares and the only reason you ever get ďinspectedĒ is if somebody wants a payoff, which usually isnít even a substantial amount of money. Your third world country top center vent mod sounds good enough to me.

Iíll take your advice on starting threads concerning oven mods if I decide to take that route. If I can get people like Jeff to help out that would certainly save time. Nevertheless, I want to give my home oven another several weeks to see how far we can take it. If the pies start coming out at a level I feel comfortable presenting to investors and can get the funding needed: Iím going for the gold and am getting a Marsal down here. I already have several people - that I know for  a fact are well funded and that invest in restaurants Ė who appear to be very interested just from trying some of the other few items thatíll be on the menu like the meatballs and ice cream. Let me see what kind of reaction I get from my home oven pies once their ready.

I hope you arenít taking any of this as a ďthat sounds like an awful lot of workĒ excuse. That would be offensive and is in no way what Iím thinking, but at the same time I donít feel comfortable with spending that much money on an experiment just yet.  And lastly, I  would hate to waste other peopleís time on the forum with their insight and ideasÖfor me to end up buying another perfectly made oven and getting it shipped down here.

Sauce: The organic tomatoes arenít something I specifically looked for, but friends who have helped me out got me contacts who just so happened to sell organic. If using fresh tomatoes is what I decide to do, Iím definitely comparing with regular non-organic plum tomatoes before making any choices.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #132 on: July 29, 2013, 07:40:12 PM »
Disaster, once again reared it's ugly head last thursday  :-D

14 inch pies on my hearth (which cannot be made larger) if not launched perfectly create an incinerated mess that render the oven useless. That was what happened with my first pie, so thereís no relevant info. This is the third time a pizza trial is wasted, so Iím switching back to 12 inch pizzas until I get a bigger hearth to work with.

The fresh plum tomato sauce I made with wal-mart bought produce tasted better than any pizza sauce Iíve ever made before. I guess thereís no way to beat freshness with a canned product, even if the tomatoes arenít grown in volcanic Italian soil.

With a 2 hour 30 minute preheat the the highest I got the temperature on the hearth was 626F, and I donít think itīs getting any higher. The thermostat got up to 488.

The fiberglass pipe insulation exists but not without the binders, and the loose fill blown-in I couldnít find. Some people told me it doesnít exist in Mexico since nobody here insulates buildings (everythingís cement). I can look for something else or try to get it shipped down here but first I have a few questions:

Even after the 2 and a half hour preheat, my thermostat was still not hitting 500F and therefore not cycling off the burner. The last few trials (1:45, 2:00) the oven has stayed on for about an hour after the preheat, and again, hasnít cycled the burners down one bit. I know this oven very, very well since itís where I started my baked good business a few years ago, so I can be sure that at NO point is the burner getting shut off or not running on full juice during these tests.

My question is: if the bottom chamber even after all that time preheating is not getting past 626F and my burner is at no point slowing down, how would insulating the probe help? If I understood correctly, the point of insulating the probe is to trick it into thinking the oven is much cooler than it actually is so it wonít shut off the burners. But if my burners are not shutting off with the current setup, and the lower chamber has reached itís peak temperature, what would be the point of insulating the probe?

I had a couple of ideas I wanted to run by you. First, is there anyway I could retain heat even better in the lower chamber by making the tile ceiling thicker (maybe 3-4 layers instead of 2) or possibly making the Ĺ inch gap a ľ inch gap, so as to let even less hot air pass through?

My other idea is a little crazier. How about if I buy a larger home oven and replace the existing dinky burners with a more powerful BTU? I have a theory that whatís really complicating hitting that 650F temp (and then losing so much after each pie)  is the fact that my burner just isnít powerful enough. I could leave this oven outside with a metal roof or something and play with it without having to worry about my kitchen going up in flames. Besides the UQT, black tile and deflector mods we could get rid of the thermostat altogether and put in a juicier burner. An added bonus is I could make larger pies without the risk of smoking up the entire block. 

The larger home oven even with all the mods is an investment, but not a 6-7 thousand dollar experiment. I have a friend who gets a huge discount at an already discount home appliance store, so I could get the whole thing up and running for a few hundred dollars (maybe). What do you think?

I really wanted to do two trials this week to make up for lost time, but my schedule doesnít allow it. Even though the one massacred ďpizzaĒ that came out last week was overbaked and well, ridiculous, the crust still tasted very good. Tons of flavor. Sorry if Iím being stubborn here but Iím really curious about seeing how that dough formulation turns out without any incidents or overbaking. Next week Iíll get back to modifying with a higher hydration and oil, if you believe itís necessary.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 07:49:16 PM by paulo.vllrr »

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #133 on: August 06, 2013, 06:40:17 PM »
Last week's trial was a big success. Dough formulation was 64 hydration, 2 salt, 1 CY, 1 sugar and a 0.08TF. No reball, this pie was baked 4 minutes flat and was not under/overbaked, just right. Great flavor in the crust but it was a little leathery and chewy. It had a crisp crust, I wouldn't go as far as saying crunchy but definitely more crisp than I would've liked. I'm starting to get the hang of stretching the dough, this one was very easy to work with and looked similar to one of the dough balls in the video while I stretched it. No problem with the 12 inches on the hearth, fits perfectly. I can now confirm that a higher hydration and posible higher sugar/oil would help the texture and browning. What would you recommend for my next formulation?

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2013, 06:47:13 PM »
pics

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #135 on: August 06, 2013, 06:49:15 PM »
Paulo,

You didn't indicate that you used any oil for the last dough. Was that an oversight or did you actually omit the oil?

Peter

Offline edgeco1

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #136 on: August 14, 2013, 03:25:48 PM »
Newbie question here, but the variation in crust texture makes me ask :)







In this video the woman makes a big point of the top and bottom of the dough ball...does it make a big difference, or can you place it either side up/down?

edge.

Offline paulo.vllrr

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #137 on: August 14, 2013, 05:12:02 PM »
Peter,

It was on purpose, this dough formulation was made without oil because out of all my trials so far this is the one that has gotten the best reviews. I wanted to try it out with my newly possible 625F temperature and see what happened. This doesn't in any way mean that I won't be using oil, when I have time for my next trial I'm guessing that Scott's going to recommend adding it back in. I haven't done any trials since because I've been completely engulfed by a new expansion in my baked goods business but hopefully I'll be back doing trials in a few weeks time. No matter how bright the future is in the baked goods business, pizza is still the top priority in the long run  ;D

I also have the same question as edgeco1!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #138 on: August 14, 2013, 05:41:11 PM »
I also have the same question as edgeco1!
Paulo,

That is a question that comes up from time to time. For the most recent discussion on this topic, see the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25518.msg257239.html#msg257239 . As you can see there, there is a diversity of opinion.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Joe's on Carmine St.
« Reply #139 on: August 14, 2013, 06:31:11 PM »
An opened dough ball has a top and a bottom. It is the little details that elevate good to great.
Pizza is not bread.