Author Topic: My Poolish Heart  (Read 5533 times)

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Offline Les

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My Poolish Heart
« on: July 07, 2005, 07:38:13 PM »
After sampling crusts over the last month from cracker to Neopolitan, the semi-NY style crust is still my favorite when somebody manages to get it right.  I said "semi" because I prefer crust that is bubbly, airy, unflattened . . . close to French bread in terms of sweetness, crunch and chewyness.  I can't relate to "sour" taste whatsoever in dough.  Gimme  sweet naturally (i.e., without using sweeteners like sugar).

Okay.  So I've been experimenting for a long time trying to create a particular taste and texture, and so many people here have given me clues how to achieve what I'm after thank you!  :-* ).  I think I am closer, but I would be most grateful for any help offered for the next stage of my experimentation.



Wow, so interesting!  I had to come back here to search for Peter's definitions of ash, etc. to try to interpret the results.  But my take was that the "fleshy" consistancy I want is most likely due to diastatic malt flour.    Also, in that study, they list two types of malt and the benefits of each.  I thought it was interesting that malt syrup and malt flour could have such different effects on dough.


Put malt on hold and consider the next thing I want to try heading for natural sweetness.  I read in a two-part article found here . . .

Part 1 -  http://www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm

Part 2 -  http://www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm

. . . that in terms of pre-ferment, poolish was best for a sweet finish.  Cool!  So I started looking around for poolish techniques/recipes.  Here are a couple I found:

http://www.cookswares.com/discussions/breads1.asp
http://www.recipesource.com/baked-goods/breads/11/rec1194.html

As you can see, there are differences in techniques and amounts (most notably 1/16 tsp yeast vs. 1/2 tsp yeast).

Okay, here's what I am hoping to experiment with over the next few weeks. 

1. I want to try using both diastatic malt syrup and diastatic malt flour (say 1/2 tsp each) to see if I can get the benefits of both. 

2. I want to use a poolish.  But I want to try it by making it three days in advance of the finished dough and keep it in the fridge (like they do in recipe #2), incorporating it into the dough two days before using it, and keeping the dough refrigerated until two hours before its time to stretch the dough.

Any suggestions? :P
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 10:07:36 PM by Les »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2005, 12:53:27 AM »
Les,

I have some ideas, but before proposing them can you indicate what size pizzas you would like to make, how many, and what thickness factor you have in mind? I know from past posts that you have made a 12-inch size and preferred a thickness factor of 0.08 rather than 0.10 for a NY style dough, such as the Lehmann NY style dough.

Peter

Offline Les

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2005, 10:21:04 AM »
Les,

I have some ideas, but before proposing them can you indicate what size pizzas you would like to make, how many, and what thickness factor you have in mind? I know from past posts that you have made a 12-inch size and preferred a thickness factor of 0.08 rather than 0.10 for a NY style dough, such as the Lehmann NY style dough.

Thanks in advance Peter.  I want to do a slightly thicker crust overall for this and with a fatter outer edge than I usually do, so for a 14 inch pizza I'd like my dough to weigh about 425g.

A measuring issue I have is how to get the right moisture level for the poolish and the dough so that I can add togehter and it turns out exactly right.  I'm reading around websites now looking for tips on making poolish, mostly its describes what to do for bread.  I'd appreciate any suggestings about portions and percentages.

Finally, I'm curious if you've seen that study on the use of malt, or something like it.  Are their findings common knowledge?

« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 10:10:16 PM by Les »

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2005, 03:23:48 PM »
Les,

Thanks for the additional input.

To begin, I wouldn’t be overly concerned about the Czech article and the chemistry involved in the use of the diastatic malt and malt syrup. The most significant point to take away from the Czech article is that diastatic malt and barley malt appear to have positive effects on a dough that is based on a flour that has a “low” ash reading—specified as below 0.60. The KASL flour has an ash reading of 0.52 plus or minus 0.02, so it conceivably is a candidate for more diastatic malt. Since the KASL is already malted, it is not entirely clear whether adding more malt in the form of diastatic malt will improve its performance. Some bakers do modify their flours by adding more diastatic malt to achieve specific end results—and maybe this is what your local pizza operator is doing. However, adding too much diastatic malt can lead to a slack, sticky dough and a gummy crumb in the baked crust. The only way to tell whether it is good or bad for your purposes is to just try adding some diastatic malt to the dough recipe. The test doughs described in the Czech article used 0.5% (by weight of flour). That is the amount I would try. The recommended level for the malt syrup, which I would also use, is also 0.5% (by weight of flour). But don’t have any illusions that malt syrup is not a sugar. It is a sugar just like table sugar but less refined and in a different form and with some added nutritional value. It does not provide additional alpha-amylase enzyme as does the diastatic malt, so its benefits are more in terms of providing food for the yeast and enhancing the flavor and color of the finished crust.

I have used both diastatic malt and malt syrup before. There is nothing especially unique about their use and the benefits they confer. I recently described a couple of experiments with the Caputo 00 flour in which I added diastatic malt to the Caputo 00 flour to increase the amount of residual sugars to increase the browning of the crusts. The results of the experiments were reported at the Caputo 00/Caputo 00 Biga thread. The additional alpha-amylase enzymes added by diastatic malt work on damaged starch molecules (the starch is damaged mainly during milling) to release natural sugars from the starch. Our domestic grains, such as red hard winter wheat, have fairly high levels of starch damage (around 7-8%) and is one of the reasons that millers malt their flours.

One of the most interesting things I picked up from the Czech article is that the dough the authors chose to use in their tests is very close to the first Lehmann dough I made and reported on in the first post at the Lehmann NY Style Pizza thread. By mistake, I had used much more yeast (IDY) than called for in the basic Lehmann dough recipe, and I used no sugar (it is optional for the Lehmann recipe, but when used the recommended amount is 1-2% by weight of flour), but the final formulation is very close to the one used by the Czech authors. You will better understand when you look at the two dough formulations:

Czech Dough Formulation
100%, Flour
4%, Fresh yeast (this is the same as 1.33% IDY)
1.7%, Salt
1%, Fat
1.5%, Sugar
Water—enough for optimal dough consistency at 600 Brabender Units (BU)

Lehmann Dough Formulation
100%, Flour
1.7%, IDY (the proper amount is 0.25%)
1.75%, Salt
1%, Olive oil
1-2%, Sugar (optional)
65%, Water, at roughly the optimal dough consistency at 500 Brabender Units (BU)

The closeness of the two formulations leads me to believe that you can take the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe for the 14-inch size you prefer (and using either the normal or greater amount of IDY), add both diastatic malt and malt syrup, each at 0.5% by weight of flour, and achieve the type of crust you are looking for. To do this requires calculating the appropriate baker’s percents and so forth, but it seems doable to me. You might also add an autolyse to the dough making process to achieve some of the bread-like qualities you seem to prefer in your crusts. I would use the classic Calvel autolyse.

I am not as sanguine about your proposal to use a “cold” poolish. I would rather that your poolish heart not become a broken heart. As you know, poolishes are intended to ferment and ripen at room temperature. The problem as I see it is that unless you intend to make a lot of the poolish, and also adjust the amounts of flour and water to maintain the hydration level of the dough into which the poolish is to be incorporated, you are likely to discover that the poolish doesn’t ferment properly or sufficiently while in the refrigerator so as to be usable when it peaks in activity. I estimate that if you choose to use say, 20%, poolish (by percent of the flour used in the basic Lehmann recipe for a 14-inch pizza), the amount of flour and water for the poolish comes to about 3 tablespoons each—enough to make a small slurry with a 100% hydration level. The amount of yeast (IDY) corresponding to those quantities is so small as to be immeasurable—about 0.02 teaspoon. The total weight of the poolish will be about 2 ounces. That small amount will cool down so quickly in the refrigerator that the yeast—already in trace amounts—will have great difficulty in starting and maintaining the fermentation process in such a cold environment (around 40-45 degrees F typically). To prove this point to my own satisfaction, last night I made a poolish in accordance with the above description. After 14 hours of refrigeration, I saw no change whatsoever in the poolish. Even when I brought it to room temperature for two hours, I saw no signs of life. It took 4 hours at room temperature for the poolish to perk up a bit. Whether it would work if I incorporated it into the basic Lehmann dough after Day 1 as per your desired schedule, I have no idea. Maybe adding more yeast will solve the matter, but then the balance of the entire recipe can be thrown off—not to mention all the calculations that have to be made to get the right baker’s percents, hydration level, and dough weight. Another possibility is to leave the poolish at room temperature until it gets a head of steam and then refrigerate it.

I looked at the amount of dough you would like to use for a 14-inch size (425 grams, or about 14.99 ounces) and that yields a thickness factor of 0.097, which is close to the standard 0.10 thickness factor for a NY style dough. You should feel free to try the poolish approach is you are so inclined, but my best advice is to take the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe for a 14-inch size and modify it to include the diastatic malt (about 1/2 t.) and malt syrup (about 1/4 t.), and possibly use an autolyse. Knowing the dough ball weight you would like to use (425 grams) and the thickness factor (0.097), modifying the basic Lehmann recipe should be fairly straightforward. I would use a 63% hydration, which would be just about optimal for the KASL (which has 63% plus or minus 2% absorption at 500 BU). And to get a big rim, I would tend to use more rather than less yeast. Under these circumstances, and temperature adjusting the water and using proper refrigeration, the dough should make it out to the 3 days you are trying to achieve.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 05:06:24 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Les

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2005, 09:20:10 PM »
Thank you Peter.  Since my malt supplies didn't make it here today, I have all weekend to ponder your suggestions. 

I think I might have miscommunicated about the poolish because I assumed I'd wait for it to take off at room temperature overnight before incorporating it into the rest of the dough the next day.  And THEN I'd refrigerate the whole thing for two days.  How does that sound?

I am still unsure of measurements to first create the poolish, and then for the dough the next day to end up with the proper hydration (assuming I attempt the Lehmann extra yeast approach).  If that's easy for you to estimate I'd appreciate that.

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2005, 12:10:51 AM »
Les,

I have taken a stab at coming up with a Lehmann dough formulation for you to try based on the parameters you specified. The assumptions I have based the formulation on include a dough ball weight of 425 grams (about 15 oz.), a pizza size of 14 inches, the use of a fair amount of yeast (IDY), and an autolyse. The thickness factor (TF) corresponding to the specified dough ball weight and pizza size is 0.0974—or slightly less than the thickness of a standard NY style. I have also assumed 1) a poolish of 20% of the weight of the flour of the dough into which the poolish is to be incorporated, 2) a room temperature fermentation for the poolish of 12-15 hours, and 3) IDY for the poolish of 0.033% by weight of the flour used in the poolish. If a shorter fermentation period for the poolish is desired, then the amount of yeast (IDY) should be increased. For example, for a 7-8 hour fermentation at room temperature, the amount of yeast (IDY) should be increased to 0.23% of the weight of the flour used in the poolish.

The poolish is a classical poolish in that it is made up of equal amounts of flour and water, both by weight, and thus has a hydration of 100%. The underlying dough into which the poolish is to be incorporated has a hydration of 63%. For purposes of the formulation and related calculations, I have treated the flour as having two parts, one for the underlying dough and the other for the poolish; similarly, I have treated the water as having two parts, one for the underlying dough and the other for the poolish. Even though the hydration percents for each set of ingredients is different (60% and 100%), collectively they produce a hydration of 63%. My advice is that the water used for at least the basic dough be temperature adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. This is to insure that the dough doesn’t ferment too quickly and will have a usable life of 3 days, as you requested. Here’s the formulation, including baker’s percents:

Les’ “My Poolish Heart” NY Style Dough Recipe
100%, KASL, 8.00 oz. for the basic dough (1 3/4 c. + 1 T. + 2 t.) plus 0.89 oz. for the poolish (3 T. + 1/2 t.)
63%, Water, 4.77 oz. for the basic dough (a bit less than 5/8 t.) plus 0.89 oz. for the poolish (about 2 T.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.16 oz. (a bit more than 3/4 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.09 oz. (a bit more than 1/2 t.)
1.7%, IDY, 0.15 oz. (a bit less than 1 1/2 t.)
0.5%, Diastatic malt, 0.04 oz. (a bit more than 1/2 t.)
0.5%, Barley malt syrup, 0.04 oz. (a bit less than 1/4 t.)
Finished dough weight = approx. 15 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.0974
Pizza size = 14 inches

To make the poolish, the flour (3 T. + 1/2 t.) should be combined with the water (about 2 T., at room temperature) in a small bowl. The IDY for the poolish can be added directly to the flour or to the mixture and be briskly stirred in. The amount of IDY is too small to measure (0.006 t.), so use only a small pinch between the thumb and forefinger. Cover the bowl and set aside for the specified time period (assumed above to be 12-15 hours).

I will assume that you can navigate the rest of the process, including how to incorporate a classic Calvel autolyse. But if you have any questions, let me know. To be on the safe side, you might also want to check my math to be sure that I didn’t make any errors.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 09, 2005, 11:31:23 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Les

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2005, 09:02:51 AM »
Les,

I have taken a stab at coming up with a Lehmann dough formulation for you to try based on the parameters you specified. . . .

Peter


Wow, I don't know what to say. Thank you.  I won't be trying this for a few days, until supplies arrive, but I'll let you know what happens.

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2005, 11:47:21 AM »
Les,

I can’t see any reason offhand why the My Poolish Heart recipe shouldn’t work. However, the proof will be in the pie. The recipe may be successful but the product may not meet your expectations nonetheless.

I meant to pass on a tip on measuring out the barley malt syrup. It is extremely thick and sticky and you will find it difficult to release from the measuring spoon without using your fingers. The best way to do it is to first lightly coat your measuring spoon with vegetable oil or spray. The syrup should release easier that way without having to get your fingers into it.

It also occurred to me to mention another NY style dough recipe that sounds like it might appeal to you. It is a "Lehmann-inspired" recipe that Canadave posted at the Lehmann thread. Like the My Poolish Heart recipe, it uses a fair amount of yeast and a high hydration level (I estimate around 65%). It also includes a fair amount of sugar. I made a pizza based on the Canadave recipe (I cut the recipe in half) and liked it very much (although the crust was sweeter than I personally prefer). The Canadave recipe is available at Reply #60 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.60.html. You might also look at the few posts that follow Reply #60 for additional commentary on the Canadave recipe. I have posted a couple of photos of the Canadave NY style below to give you an idea of what my pizza looked like.

Peter

Offline Les

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2005, 09:41:58 PM »
Since the KASL is already malted, it is not entirely clear whether adding more malt in the form of diastatic malt will improve its performance. Some bakers do modify their flours by adding more diastatic malt to achieve specific end results—and maybe this is what your local pizza operator is doing.

Once again, thank you for all your help, and the suggestion to check out Canadadave's approach.  I most certainly will.  In the meantime, I've backtracked a little to help me phrase things I've been thinking about.

Your quote above hits on my worry.  You say KASL is already malted, but it doesn't say that on their ingredients list.  KASL only says "hard red winter wheat."  That's in contrast to their bread flour, for instance, which says "unbleached hard spring wheat flour, malted barley flour . . . "
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 10:14:16 PM by Les »

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2005, 11:23:45 PM »
Les,

Before sending on some dough, I suggest that you first try out the My Poolish Heart recipe to see whether using the diastatic malt and barley malt syrup result in a dough that has similar characteristics to the doughs you have been buying from the local pizza operator. You might recall that the Czech article concluded that the diastatic malt increased the firmness and elasticity of the test doughs (the ones using the low ash flour samples). It is also well known that diastatic malt can contribute to the sweetness of the crust, although I don't know at what level it would be evident. It may be a subtle effect, but one that is perceptible nonetheless. This is a point that might be worth your pursuing with your local pizza operator if he is amenable to clarifying the matter for you. However, if he mentioned malt specifically, then it sounds like there may be something there. Since most flours are malted by the miller, there is usually not much need for a baker to supplement it with more diastatic malt. So, it is possible that the local pizza operator is adding the non-diastatic barley malt syrup--or possibly a dry form--for its contribution to the flavor and color of the crust. When the non-diastatic malt is used, the baker will usually omit other forms of sugar from the recipe and rely solely on the sweetness from the non-diastatic malt.

FYI, the place where I read about the malting of the KASL flour came from a KA spec sheet at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/4a1eb4311b0be08b2b590b39ac3f2c77/download/Primary%20sell%20sheet.pdf. The spec sheet doesn’t say what kind of malt, but if I had to guess I would say that it is of the diastatic form.

If the dough you make using the malts is nothing like the ones you have been buying, then you will know to look elsewhere for the answers. It may well be that the mixers and related techniques used by the local pizza operator are responsible for the quality of his doughs. More than once I recall fellow member giotto talking about how different the doughs made by the "pros" are from those we make at home using our humble KitchenAid mixers. I must confess that I have not heard of the use of 30-minute knead cycles by professional pizza operators. It would only seem to make sense if the kneading were done at very low speeds, so as not to overknead the dough or produce excessive heat buildup in the finished dough.

If you learn anything further that suggests that we should proceed differently, feel free to let me know in case there is a need to modify the recipe in some way.

Peter



Offline spook

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2005, 08:43:57 PM »
I've been using Barley Malt in my dough as well, i like the taste.   I use about 10g of honey, and 20g of the malt, or about 2% sugar with the two added. 

Offline Les

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2005, 10:02:45 PM »
Peter, just so you don't think I've dropped out, I made up my poolish this morning.  The diastatic syrup isn't here yet, but I'm going to try the "poolish heart" dough with only malted flour if the syrup doesn't make it tomorrow in time.  In the meantime, tonight I am experimenting with a little potato flour in the dough.  I report the results if it is interesting.

Offline Les

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2005, 11:01:31 AM »
Potato flour makes the dough very soft.  Lovers of potato bread might enjoy what turns out, but it is far from the classic NY dough.  I used 15% potato flour, and if I ever try it again I would leave it out until I had most of the unbleached dough mixuture completed.  Trying to knead the dough with the potato flour in from the start created a very sticky dough that was hard to work with.  My wife liked the result, as something different, because it did have a nice taste and the soft texture was interesting.  But I didn't think it complimented the tomato sauce and tomatoes I use very well

Well, back to the poolish experiment 8)

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2005, 11:14:31 AM »
Les,

Did you use actual potato flour or the dehydrated stuff sold in supermarkets?

The amount of potato flour that is usually recommended is 5-7% by weight of flour. The amount of water also has to be increased to compensate for the potato flour.

Peter

Offline Les

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2005, 08:42:39 PM »
Les,

Did you use actual potato flour or the dehydrated stuff sold in supermarkets?

The amount of potato flour that is usually recommended is 5-7% by weight of flour. The amount of water also has to be increased to compensate for the potato flour.

Peter


I did use actual potato flour, bought from King Arthur's site (well, Baker's Catalogue).  But if you are correct, it appears I used 2-3 time more than recommended.

Update on the poolish experiment!

Peter, don't hate me but I decide to adjust your suggestion a bit.  First,  two sources claimed refrigeration would improve the flavor.  The recipe I sited earlier:

http://www.recipesource.com/baked-goods/breads/11/rec1194.html

. . . and then in another thread here at PM where Dinks advises Fritz:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9879.html#msg9879

I made the poolish yesterday, immediately refrigerated it, and took it out today about 16 hours later.  I gave it three 5 second hits in the microwave, which brought it to room temperature, and then let it proof, uncovered, in my microwave that I'd boiled water in to make it wet and warm.  I had to repeat boiling the water in the microwave three times, but after five hours, the poolish appeared as in the pic below.

Offline Les

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2005, 08:58:39 PM »
In putting together the poolish, I was once more a bit rebellious.  Both Dink and the baker here:

http://www.recipesource.com/baked-goods/breads/11/rec1194.html

. . . suggested having the dough be a higher percentage poolish than your recommendation.  Dink claims 1/3 of the flour is to be dedicated to the poolish,  so  I settled on 1/3.  Plus, in the recipe in the link, the baker suggests incorporating 1 Tbs rye flour for its ability to help develop the poolish.  So I did that.

I have to say, poolish is very interesting stuff.  It smells nutty sweet, and not acetic at all.  And it is a joy to work with as a preferment.  Just spoon it out, no resistance and no mess.

As luck would have it, the Federal Express guy showed up with my diastatic malt syrup right when I started making the dough.  So I was able to use all the ingredients planned for the "My Poolish Heart" dough.

I will post the details of everything after Saturday night's pizza since the dough is now in the fridge for the next 48 hours.  But I can already say the dough is "different" than anything I've ever made so far.  Below is a pic, tho I don't think it necessarily reveals what is different about it.

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2005, 10:13:45 PM »
Les,

You may recall from my Reply #3 in this thread that my concern about refrigerating the poolish was that the amount of poolish my recipe called for was less than 2 ounces. And with only a trace amount of yeast, I was concerned that the poolish would cool off so quickly that the yeast wouldn't be able to start the fermentation process. Indeed that was the case when I tried refrigerating such a small amount of poolish. I also designed the amount of poolish to be exact for the amounts of the ingredients specified in the Lehmann recipe and to be amenable to incorporation into the underlying dough so as not to alter its hydration (63%). In your case, you have apparently made much more poolish, so refrigerating it is less an issue. I assume that the hydration percent of your poolish was the same as the underlying dough into which the poolish was incorporated, although it isn't entirely clear from your comments. I also assume that you used only the amount specified in the My Poolish Heart recipe. Otherwise, the hydration would be altered and the overall weight of the finished dough would be greater.

The amount of poolish I proposed (20%) was intentional. It is about the amount percentagewise that bakeboy used (in the form of old dough) as a pizza maker. The amount you used is more typical of bread making (DINKS' background) than pizza making, with a typical range for bread making being around 35-50 percent. Varasano uses a high percentage of preferment also, but with a different recipe formulation. So it will be interesting to see what results you get, that is, whether they will be more breadlike than pizza like. I couldn't quite tell whether you decided to use an autolyse, especially since DINKS remarks on the use of the poolish were in the context of an autolyse.

Peter

Offline Les

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2005, 10:14:00 AM »
I assume that the hydration percent of your poolish was the same as the underlying dough into which the poolish was incorporated, although it isn't entirely clear from your comments. I also assume that you used only the amount specified in the My Poolish Heart recipe. Otherwise, the hydration would be altered and the overall weight of the finished dough would be greater.

I relied on your figures, which when added together and converted to grams came to about 250g of flour, and 160g of water.  Following Dinks suggestion that a "true" poolish is equal amounts of flour and water, I mixed 75g flour  (of which 6g was rye flour), 75g of water and the pinch of IDY.  I then knew I had 175g flour and 85g water remaining for the recipe.  I used half the remaining flour and the malt flour, added the poolish and additional yeast, calculated what 63% hydration would be for that amount of flour and then used less (trying to compensate for the extra moisture of the poolish -- after I do it a few times I have exact figures), mixed it in the KA for a bit, and the did a 30 minute autolyze.  While that went on, I dissolved the salt and malt syrup in the remaining water, and after the autolyze added that and the remaining flour gradually while kneading the dough on low speed with the KA.  Because I wanted to experiment with the longer knead time, I let the KA continue kneading for 10 minutes on low (1).

So, yes in the end I relied on the hydration level of your recipe.

The amount of poolish I proposed (20%) was intentional. It is about the amount percentagewise that bakeboy used (in the form of old dough) as a pizza maker. The amount you used is more typical of bread making (DINKS' background) than pizza making, with a typical range for bread making being around 35-50 percent.

I figured there must have been a reason.  While I was waiting for supplies I almost asked you, but I didn't want to abuse your generosity.


. . .  it will be interesting to see what results you get, that is, whether they will be more breadlike than pizza like. I couldn't quite tell whether you decided to use an autolyse, especially since DINKS remarks on the use of the poolish were in the context of an autolyse.

Yes.  I hope it isn't breadlike, but this is just the first go, so it will be interesting to see.  And if it is too bready, I should have clues to help me turn it toward pizzalikeness.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2005, 11:01:58 AM »
Les,

Did you take the weight of the finished dough ball? That would be a good cross check on whether you stayed within the confines of the recipe. If you didn't weigh the dough you can always do it when it comes out of the refrigerator. It will likely lose a small amount of its weight (typically a fraction of an ounce) while it is in the refrigerator through loss of moisture (which may condense on the side of the bowl or the cover).

I also noticed from your photo of the finished dough that the dough appears to have a light tan color. Maybe it's the photo and light conditions, but when I used to use malt syrup in bread doughs the dough would take on a similar appearance.

It will be quite interesting to see what you get in the way of results. Unfortunately, with so many things going on at the same time (Lehmann-type dough with a poolish, a bit of rye flour, diastatic malt, barley syrup and an autolyse) you may never know what to credit or blame for the results you get.  But I'm glad you didn't add potato flour to complicate matters even further. If Tom Lehmann ever sees the pizza or the final recipe we might get arrested ;D.

Peter

Offline Les

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Re: My Poolish Heart
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2005, 02:47:29 PM »
Did you take the weight of the finished dough ball? That would be a good cross check on whether you stayed within the confines of the recipe. If you didn't weigh the dough you can always do it when it comes out of the refrigerator. It will likely lose a small amount of its weight (typically a fraction of an ounce) while it is in the refrigerator through loss of moisture (which may condense on the side of the bowl or the cover).

Well, I just weighed it and it is 30g off (395g).  I admit that at one point I forgot to note the amount of water I'd already put in; I was doing several things at once and couldn't remember to save my life.  So that might mean my dough is going to be under hydrated.  The other possibility is that I've left behind enough poolish and dough in some of my containers to add up to the missing weight.

I have to say however that the dough has very interesting texture, more meaty than usual, which is one trait I've been looking for.  It has a nice smell too.


I also noticed from your photo of the finished dough that the dough appears to have a light tan color. Maybe it's the photo and light conditions, but when I used to use malt syrup in bread doughs the dough would take on a similar appearance.

I think it is mostly the light and the coating of the olive oil I used.  Right now I'm looking at it and the dough itself looks quite white.


It will be quite interesting to see what you get in the way of results. Unfortunately, with so many things going on at the same time (Lehmann-type dough with a poolish, a bit of rye flour, diastatic malt, barley syrup and an autolyse) you may never know what to credit or blame for the results you get.  But I'm glad you didn't add potato flour to complicate matters even further. If Tom Lehmann ever sees the pizza or the final recipe we might get arrested

I know better too.  When I cook, I tend to take intuitive leaps, and then narrow down the variables to get what I am looking for.  Unscientific but fun sometimes.