Author Topic: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP. (Read 3018 times)

scott123 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2011, 08:01:17 PM »

Nick, isn't the condensation occurring on the outside of the plastic wrap, not the inside? There's no air between the dough and the plastic wrap, right? In order to have condensation, you have to have air.

I agree about the almost blown dough.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #21 on:** October 15, 2011, 09:01:10 AM »

Quote from: gabaghool on October 14, 2011, 05:11:27 PM

As usual great looking Pies, chau

As far as it being american tasting, I really think its the emergency dough and milk. But I tell you the crust at zuppardi's, while it had character was a soft crust.....I mean it was crisp, tasty, brown with some char, but it had a tender crumb...the dough the next day was EXTREMELY soft, softer than ours or any other I had. THAT was my biggest dissappointment. Hot , it was un B effin lievable.

I tell you your Hybrid NY pies look amazingly like Toby's Public house in brooklyn. He does a ny style pie in a wood oven, all 12 inches.

Nick, thanks for the nice words. I'll be forever experimenting and tweaking thngs I think. The mystery is half the fun for me. I think you are right about the dry milk giving pies more the taste and texture of "American" style pizza. A quick and interesting note. At work, ppl occasionally order pizza for lunch from PH, PJs, or Dominoes. I've now eaten from each of those places all within the last several months and I was a bit surprise to see that they all had a very similar texture. Mainly that the crust is really tender. You don't even have ton chew these slices much as they almost fall apart in your mouth. They reminded me a bit of the textures of McDs food. Made that way so it's easy to eat alot with very little effort! So these little experiment reminded me of that.

However, I think if I remove the dry milk, and left the oil, the crust could come close to what you are after.

Quote from: gabaghool on October 14, 2011, 07:37:45 PM

We NOW do it the old New Haven way...on oiled sheetpans, with oil squeeze bottled on top of each ball and then TUCKED UNDER (the dough balls, NOT the sheetpan) with plastic wrap.

Nick, do you routinely get blisters on your commercial pizza? If so, that oil you put on top of the dough could very well be absorb on the dough surface and frying the skin during the bake producing a similar effect to this pizza frita or fried perogies. I usually wipe just a thin layer of oil in my plastic proofing bowls but may try to really coat a dough ball in oil next time to try and get that fried effect. This dovetails right Scott's comment about coating the top in oil as well. As I mentioned, I vaguely remember member GlutenBoy posting something about brushing his rims with oil. I should say that I still think other conditions need to be met or that the dough needs to be ripe for blistering to occur. The oil may enhance the effect but wouldn't be the sole solution.

In the pies I posted above, I painted the first one with oil and not the 2nd rim. It gave the first one a bit more of an oily fried crust taste but didn't effect blistering.

Chau

gabaghool · « **Reply #22 on:** October 15, 2011, 03:02:19 PM »

Guys
Ive got a catering event to do today....its killing me I can't read this whole thread...ill read it tonite when i get home....... but Scott's is short.

No, actually air does get under the wrap, not a lot, but thats one reason why we tuck the plastic wrap under the DOUGH BALLS THEMSELVES, not under the rim of the sheetpan.

Chau...ill get back to you after......I've, of course, got some questions.

IMHO, and I realize I've done a ton less experiments....oil in the dough MAY help with those blisters, oil on the dough....i really don't think it does a thing with blisters......me, I think thats TOTALLY where condensation rested and wet that tiny little dot of dough, hydrating it more than the rest of the dough....maybe letting the SKIN rest will help too.....we are always ahead on skins, folded in half, ready to be stretched and decorated. Don't know if that helps...but we do get blisters...and always more on the older dough.....though nothing like Glutenboys.....thats really the meaning of XTREME blister effect.

However, I think if I remove the dry milk, and left the oil, the crust could come close to what you are after.

With a short warm ferm or overnight (24hrs?) zuppardi's was ALMOST flaky!!

DannyG · « **Reply #23 on:** October 19, 2011, 02:39:16 PM »

So after reading this thread I put Zuppardi's on my to-do list and was able to make it there for lunch today. We had a medium (14") pepperoni pie. I have to agree it was an excellent pizza. The dough was tender with just enough chew, a good tasting cheese, and a great sauce. My only criticism was that I found it a little salty, but that is being picky. This was as good as any NYC style pizza I've had, and I have been to many of the top NYC places.

I looked in the kitchen and saw a pallet load of Gold Medal All Trumps flour. (Know as AT on this board)
The camera phone photo did not come out that great but here it is;

scott123 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 19, 2011, 03:01:28 PM »

Nice detective work, Danny.

Now that we know that this is AT, I'm a little more certain about my oil theory. In a home setting, you can underknead and coddle an AT dough in such a way that it will end up relatively tender, but I don't think that much fussing is really feasible in a commercial pizzeria. One way to maintain a tender crust with AT without having to worry about underkneading is oil. For anyone attempting this- I highly recommend your first attempt be 4% oil.

DannyG · « **Reply #25 on:** October 19, 2011, 04:57:26 PM »

I've been using AT for about 6 months now using 1% oil (EVO) and we are very happy with the results. If I get a chance I'll try to take some photos the next time I bake, which should be Friday.

gabaghool · « **Reply #26 on:** October 22, 2011, 05:42:10 PM »

Thank you!

Shows how little I know about flour....That crust I ate was NOTHING like other HG flours I used. I used AT for a few years and the crust was exactly the opposite of what I had a zuppardi's. zups, was flaky, crisp, tender, but chewy when hot. The next day it was THE softest crust I have ever had....

I agree with scott when he says a commercial place will be more than hesitant for any involved method of tenderizing AT.....anything like autolyse, things that take time or are the least bit complicated is a no no.

They MUST form that cornich differently than most NH places also. In NH there is NO conscience effort to "form" a crust...in fact the first thing you are taught as a "pounder" is to "knock down" the edges. This leads to that relatively small edge you see in NH pizza. But Zups is larger, puffier, which leads you to think that the pie is a lot thicker throughout...which isn't true. Its thin, perhaps a BIT thicker than most NH, but still a thin crust....like NY I guess, which seems a tiny bit thicker than NH.

Thanks again for spotting the AT's.

gabaghool · « **Reply #27 on:** October 22, 2011, 05:44:46 PM »

But....look at that roni pie.....that crust is perfect to ME. I know its a bit GB to others, but to me...it great. I LOVE that little puffier edge, I love the color with the bit of char.....damn, they do a great job.

scott123 · « **Reply #28 on:** October 22, 2011, 05:55:42 PM »

Quote from: gabaghool on October 22, 2011, 05:42:10 PM

...like NY I guess, which seems a tiny bit thicker than NH.

Between the deck oven, the rim, the ATs and the lack of char, this is really just an extra GB NY Style pie, imo. I don't even think I'd classify it as a hybrid NY/NH. It's NY. The only truly NH thing about Zups is the clams.

scott123 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 22, 2011, 06:00:38 PM »

Quote from: gabaghool on October 22, 2011, 05:42:10 PM

Shows how little I know about flour....That crust I ate was NOTHING like other HG flours I used. I used AT for a few years and the crust was exactly the opposite of what I had a zuppardi's. zups, was flaky, crisp, tender, but chewy when hot. The next day it was THE softest crust I have ever had....

Yes, AT is notorious for producing some of the chewiest crusts out there. Something different is definitely going on here to make the AT tender. And my money is on oil. I've been pondering the possibility that they might be blending the AT with another flour, but, considering the access they have to lower protein flours, I find it unlikely.

gabaghool · « **Reply #30 on:** October 22, 2011, 06:08:14 PM »

I don't know what happened to the post I just THOUGHT i posted...but....

I really am starting to agree with you about the oil...I think its possible quite high..as in more than 3 percent maybe?

And, yeah, it IS more of a NY than a NH.....still no oregano though....in shakers on the side. Isn't oregano a given in most NY creations?? I love oregano with pizza, don't know why so many NH places have an aversion to it.

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #31 on:** October 22, 2011, 06:42:27 PM »

Quote from: gabaghool on October 22, 2011, 06:08:14 PM

I don't know what happened to the post I just THOUGHT i posted...but....

I really am starting to agree with you about the oil...I think its possible quite high..as in more than 3 percent maybe?

And, yeah, it IS more of a NY than a NH.....still no oregano though....in shakers on the side. Isn't oregano a given in most NY creations?? I love oregano with pizza, don't know why so many NH places have an aversion to it.

Nick it makes sense that there is likely a good amount of oil in the dough. How much, I could only guess and my guess isn't as high as Scott's. I might try 2-3% and work up if needed. If the oil is too high, I think you would lose some of the crunch factor. I can't remember if anyone mention if there was much crunch to the rim or not. Again, the dough looks like a well kneaded moderately hydrated dough. If it's all trumps, without the oil, it would be tough. Much chewier than what you experienced. Also you thought the dough was flakey. Even the crust looks a bit flakey to me. That would point towards some kind of fat or oil in the dough.

Chau

gabaghool · « **Reply #32 on:** October 22, 2011, 07:08:33 PM »

Yeah, Chau....when hot, the rim had a nice crunch to it. It tasted like a french baguette or italian pane pugliese.

I offered a local artisan bakery my labor for free, a kind of apprenticeship....so I can learn the WHYS of flour, how and why they react and do the things they do.....he was receptive, but we'll see. Hard to turn down free workers.

Think it would help??

scott123 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 22, 2011, 07:24:27 PM »

Chau/Nick, out of all my flour and oil testing, I spent the most time between 2-3% oil with 100% All Trumps, and, unless you barely kneaded it, it was leather city. I was, at the time, kind of high on the hydration side of things, though, and increased hydration with AT definitely results in both toughness and lack of crispness, so... maybe, with less water, a combination of both tender and crisp might be achieved. Still, based on my experience with 3% + AT, I'd start with 4 and go higher. Here's where I'd start my testing

1st attempt:

All Trumps
61% hydration
4% oil

2nd

All Trumps
61% hydration
5% oil

3rd

All Trumps
59% hydration
4% oil

For all my tests, I would go with an overnight cold ferment and keep the kneading to a minimum to try and encourage a more rustic/uneven crumb.

Edit: Oh crud, do you think there's a chance these might be steam ovens? Someone, somewhere has got to be using steam for pizza, and that steam would definitely go a long way in creating a brittle 'baguette' like crust.

gabaghool · « **Reply #34 on:** October 22, 2011, 11:07:31 PM »

Nah. Scott those were 4 ft bakers prides....no steam. I did notice that the crust at Zups was similar in appearance to Apizza Scholls. check out these pics:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2008/07/apizza-scholls-pizza-portland-oregon-or.html

And that crust was from a former BAKER. Maybe, just maybe, Zups is unintentionally doing what Spangler does. And spangler uses HG with a long warm ferm. And I think that is similar to your quick cold ferm, scott.

There is SOME bread baking formulations going on here, whether they KNOW it or not......the only diff is that i think that Spanglers crust is a LOT crunchier and drier. Maybe what zup would get if they cranked there ovens more and gave it a minute or so more.

gabaghool · « **Reply #35 on:** October 22, 2011, 11:08:33 PM »

But, scott, to get this right....short kneading, quick ferm and high oil (6%ish or so) is that about right for a first experiment??

scott123 · « **Reply #36 on:** October 23, 2011, 01:51:10 AM »

Whew!

Glad to hear it, Nick. You mentioned baguettes and my mind went racing

When I say an overnight ferment, I'm thinking full 24 hours. First time, try 4% oil. The crumb doesn't have the kind of shade of more than a one day dough, but the exterior has the GB of either sugar or a longish bake. Out of the two, I'd go with sugar. 1%

scott123 · « **Reply #37 on:** October 24, 2011, 02:37:03 PM »

Update: The new Dewey's thread got me thinking about Zuppardi's.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16124.0.html

High oil, some blisters (more on the bottom) but with far less character than Zups (probably due to longer kneading and longer bake). The high sugar has me thinking Zups might have more sugar than 1%, but, for now, I think 1% is a good starting point.

gabaghool · « **Reply #38 on:** October 25, 2011, 09:19:26 AM »

Scott....I don't know if this helps....but when I saw the upskirt shot ont he dewys thread, I said to my self..."that looks a lot like Zups...minus the semolina or corn meal" You know what I mean?? Some upskirts are pretty light with lots of char marks (not leapording but something else) Zups was a an illustration of GB BUT with some charring also. But those are definately two types of upskirt that I see constantly...actually 4.

BURNT
A LIGHT COLOR WITH PLENTY OF CHARRING
THE ZUPS BOTTOM...GB WITH SOME CHARRING (AND DEWY'S GB, NO CHARRING)
NO COLOR WHAT TO SPEAK OF....B/C
1.tired stones
2. oven guy isn't cranking up heat in busy times
3. oven guy not moving pizzas around to hot spot if needed.

Nice call Scott.

PS....Finally chucked the KA and bought a 10 gallon Globe mixer, safety cage, variable speed, hook, paddle, whip attachments. Now, I can finally start experiementing. A caterer was selling...$200, a good price for a machine that looks lightly used AND is the newer model.

scott123 · « **Reply #39 on:** October 25, 2011, 12:02:49 PM »

Nick, thanks for mentioning Zup's upskirts (Zupskirts?

). Up until now, I hadn't found any upskirt photos. I just dig some digging and found two.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4119/4903171189_064c340c7d.jpg

http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/20110826-Zuppardis-5.jpg

The first, paler upskirt was from a year ago:

https://eatitdamnit.wordpress.com/2010/08/18/zuppardis/

While the second more GB was from about a month ago:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/09/on-the-importance-of-fresh-pizza-zuppardis.html

Both are solid showings, although I have to admit, the pale upskirt is a little too pale/uncharred, while the GB is, for me, just a skitch too brown. The fact that there is char on the first, even if it's barely registering, seems to support my faster bake theory. You generally don't get char like that above 6 minutes.

That's great about the Globe mixer. I'm curious, are you experimenting at home or at the shop?