MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.

[scott123]

Nick, I made a couple of GBD pies tonight for you.  These were 3 hour emergency pies from start to finish.   I wanted to try out a few ideas and tweaked that PH recipe above.  The pies weren't bad at all but tasted more like American style pies than NY style.  They were a bit too tender.  Go figure right?

Chau, this is a little late, but would you happen to recall the kneading time, post kneading consistency, flour and bake time?

Up until now, I've been certain that oil is a GB facilitator/char inhibitor (deep fried foods never have char), but recently, I've been theorizing that it might be a kind of crumb equalizer as well.  The oily-er doughs that I'm seeing as of late seem to have less irregular and slightly finer crumbs.

[Jackie Tran]

Scott, because I was planning on using a 3% oil and wanted a semi tight crumb, I decided to adjust my amount of kneading up for this HG dough.  The hydration ratio is 64%  For these pies, I did a 1 minute mix in the bosch to incorporate the ingredients, followed immediatedly by a 5min mix, rest 20m, then another 3m mix (on speed 1).  At this point the dough was just spinning on the bottom of the bowl, so I removed it and hand kneaded another 5m.

Post kneading, the dough was fairly smooth especially after a 10m rest.  This was sort of a kneading experiment of sorts.  I did much more kneading than I normally would.

Chau

[scott123]

Thanks for the clarification, Chau.

[gabaghool]

Scott
Im using the mixer at work.  Its just better set up in prepping, refrigerating and making pizza than at home.  I can also crank up the oven from our 550 when the time comes.

I think that oil IS NOT a reducer to char, though I believe wholeheartedly it can be a facilitator like you said.  The reason I say is doesn't reduce charring is that I have reheated DEEP FRIED FOODS thousands and thousands of times (especially our deep fried eggplant fries) and when reheated to long and too high of a temp....believe me they char....

Im so glad to be rid of the KA.......never mixing the bottom, etc......

[gabaghool]

Scott

I know I asked this when I first started on this forum, but I knew a lot less, so now that I've acquired SOME knowledge, Ill ask again....

Putting together everything I know about the bottom crust and the top cooking equally, I really cannot see how a gas deck oven will out preform an electric oven, in which I can control BOTH the top and bottom temps.  Unlike a dome shaped WFO, where the heat whips around the top and nails the toppings and cheese, a decks air temp just doesn't behave that way.  I can see cranking the therm, getting the stones real hot and the result being a scorched bottom and undercooked top.

But, do you thing the "DOME SHAPED BRICK PATTERN" of the MB 60 is a feature that really works or simply a marketing tool?

Thanks.

PS  Chau, I think you can better describe the action of a WFO than I can.

[scott123]

Scott
Im using the mixer at work.  Its just better set up in prepping, refrigerating and making pizza than at home.  I can also crank up the oven from our 550 when the time comes.

I think that oil IS NOT a reducer to char, though I believe wholeheartedly it can be a facilitator like you said.  The reason I say is doesn't reduce charring is that I have reheated DEEP FRIED FOODS thousands and thousands of times (especially our deep fried eggplant fries) and when reheated to long and too high of a temp....believe me they char....

Im so glad to be rid of the KA.......never mixing the bottom, etc......

Nick, won't experimenting at the shop translate into a pretty late night for you?

I get the feeling that we might be defining char a bit differently. To me, char is more than just dark/burnt areas.  It's contrast. Leoparding is the extremest char you can find- black/almost black spots surrounding by relatively white areas.  As you move up the baking clock, the contrast drops, but contrast is still an integral component of char.  GB = even browning. Char = uneven browning.

I think that one of the biggest contributors to char is water evaporation.  As the heat of the oven blasts the exterior of the rim, certain areas dry out faster than others. Those drier areas will then brown faster, and, because darker colors absorb heat better, any brown areas will blacken quickly. Oil, because it doesn't evaporate, stays on the surface of the crust and distributes the intense heat a bit more evenly, producing less contrast/less char.

At least, that's my theory  If your eggplant fries are experiencing high contrast browning when re-heating, then my theory could be off, but I think there could be more going on.  How are you re-heating them?

[scott123]

Putting together everything I know about the bottom crust and the top cooking equally, I really cannot see how a gas deck oven will out preform an electric oven, in which I can control BOTH the top and bottom temps.  Unlike a dome shaped WFO, where the heat whips around the top and nails the toppings and cheese, a decks air temp just doesn't behave that way.  I can see cranking the therm, getting the stones real hot and the result being a scorched bottom and undercooked top.

But, do you thing the "DOME SHAPED BRICK PATTERN" of the MB 60 is a feature that really works or simply a marketing tool?

Nick, I believe it's always been my contention, that, with dual heating elements/dual controllers (as well as higher peak temps) electric ovens are far superior to gas, but that gas is kinder to one's utility bill.  At least I think it is.  I have to admit, I've never known anyone who's made the journey from gas to electric (or vice versa), so I don't have real world data on the difference in energy costs. I do know that gas ovens outnumber electric ones in the NY metro area by a vast majority.  I also know that using combustibles (mostly coal), to make steam, and then converting that steam to electricity, and lastly, using electricity to make heat, is a highly inefficient process compared to using a combustible (gas) to make heat, and where there's inefficiency, there's usually higher costs. If I was a betting man, I think it would be a safe bet that electric ovens cost more to run than gas, but without real world data, there's no way to tell for certain.

I could care less about the pattern they use for the bricks, but the bricks they put in the ceiling of the MB 60 are a valuable feature.  As you've already reasoned out, all gas ovens are severely handicapped from a perspective of top heat, so any thermal mass that can be added to a ceiling is a good thing.  But it won't ever match the kind of flexibility that you'll see with electric. Brick lined ceilings are making do with a bad situation, while electric ovens with dual elements/dual thermostats are just about total control- as long as they are high enough wattage/pump out enough BTUs for reasonably fast pre-heats and good recovery and the stones are nice and thick.  A low wattage oven with thinner than an inch stones is worthless.

[gabaghool]

Thanks scott, as usual....you are invaluable.

1.  No, not every night will be long.  I think that one of the reasons I am getting so restless IS the fact that my partners don't want any of us actually WORKING.. MEANING physically working....ESPECIALLY PIZZA, cause while I owned a pizza shop previously, I brought in someone I considered THE BEST PIZZA MAKER I've ever run across...and he is.  BUT, he knows ONE way of doing things, and WILL NOT DEVIATE from it....regardless that we win NO AWARDS nor do we get much positive feedback on our pizza.  Very little negative, mind you, but NO  oooohs and aaahs.  Our pizza is simply good pizza.  GOOD. Thats all.  And any thing I would like to change meets with a flat out no.  ALL of our awards comes from our food, which is my department.  So now you know why I got itchy feet.

I'll have some late nites, for sure...and all my experimenting will have to be on the qt, but, to me, if I reach my goal will be SSOOOOOOO worth it.  To tell the truth, he's none to happy I bought a small mixer.....he's stubborn and ocd, but he ain't dumb.

As far as char goes...I think we are about on the same page.  I am after a golden brown WITH char spots.  And I think those char spots come from THIN dough layers.  Little bubbles in the dough with the skin is far thinner than the main crust. I think this dough bubble, being so thin, will char...and I can't see how oil would HINDER THAT CHAR.  YOU CAN CHAR with oil, if you overcook.  Personally, I think you are 100% on with your thought about oil.  It will help GB the non bubble surface and deep fry the bubble skin...if that makes sense.  The bubble skin dries out, the oil gets to work and "overbrowns" the thin skin......

Your theory ISN'T off on the eggplant fries.  Frying them initially rids the stick of water and all thats left is oil soaked cracker meal.  Certain spots will have little eggplant meat in contact with it,and certain spots will be pure meal coating....THOSE spots char.  As far as pizza crust goes, those thin skinned bubbles are oil soaked and the oil aides in browning, in this case, excessive browning.  Beyond those thoughts, its more complicated that I can understand at this point.

Now, on to electric ovens.  Im in full agreement.  I just can't see HOW an electric oven can't be superior.  The cost involved....well, that can be taken care of with what I charge per pie. And, in a busy place you are looking at 2000-2500 pies a week.  So the cost can be made minimal per pie. 

Pluse, the food cost associated with pies are around the best in the industry.  While the AVERAGE net profit for food items in a restaurant that RUNS a profit is around 4-5 percent, the average profit margin in a pizza place is anywhere from 15-20%.  So there is room to play with here.   And HERE lies the reason why so many places make mediorce to bad pies and survives.....the profit of so great.  I run a place with mediocre, non descript pizza, run it correctly, pay attention to the variables, and I can make a fortune on a 1M ANNUAL INCOME.  Me, personally would GLADLY give a portion of that up in order to have my pizza acclaimed as one of the best......and BELIEVE ME when I tell you...thats a sacrifice NONE to AN EXTREMELY SMALL PERCENTAGE would be able to give up.

My guess, electric ovens run expensively.  So be it......I want the best product I can get...and equipment plays a huge part in it. So me getting down a recipe and a procedure is simply the first tasks I have on hand.

However, your positve review of the MB 60 is interesting, and maybe its better than I had originally thought.  I'll find someone in my area who will allow me to play with em for a few evenings....making a final decision for myself.....BUT......knowing what i now know of how important bottom and top heat IS to a perfect pizza....I NEED to investigate an electric oven...and THAT will be more difficult..simply because of two reasons. The first is that most owners WONT have an electric oven BECAUSE they are more costly, and second...there is a real belief that electric will not be as good as gas.....which I now see as erroneous.  the best artisan bakers in my area ALL use electric ovens.....there has GOT to be a reason for it.

Im gonna get this crust down.....its just a matter of time, with help here. It will give me something to shoot for while I daydream during our endless P and L meetings that bore me to death.

Thanks again Scott.