Author Topic: Re: Lehmann Dough Rising More Than Normal  (Read 1716 times)

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Offline tjacks88

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Re: Lehmann Dough Rising More Than Normal
« on: July 08, 2005, 10:20:45 AM »
Pete-zza,

Last night I mixed up your 14” lehman, 63% hydration (times 4 for 4 pizzas). I rounded off the flour to 40 ounces to make it easier to weigh – this resulted in 4 dough balls with final weight of about 17 ounces each. I had a little accident while pouring the water in and some spillage, so I was stuck with adding a little more water, so if anything the hydration was a little higher. This was my first time mixing this amount of dough, so I ran the mixer 10-15 minutes (Kitchenaid Pro 600 with spiral hook) until it looked like it was well missed. This may have been a little too long.

I put the dough balls into 2 plastic Tupperware containers, I normally use metal restaurant containers for the quicker heat reduction, but tried Tupperware this time. Before putting them in the fridge, I had to rearrange to make room so I am sure the fridge temp had risen more than I am normally used to.

My question is this – when checking on the dough balls this morning they had risen much more than normal – probably doubling in size. Normally they only slightly rise, and my NY style turns out the way I want. Would over mixing or a higher fridge temp to start with have caused this to happen? What about too high of a hydration percentage? Also, I have talked to local NY style pizzaiolis and their rule of thumb is 1oz equals 1” of pizza (17oz ball would equal a 17” pizza). If that is the case, my dough balls would be too big for (4) 14” pizzas, even though I multiplied the single 14” recipe times 4 (rounded to 40ozs.) to get where I am at.

I will be cooking these tonight for my 8 year old daughter’s birthday.

Thanks!


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Lehmann Dough Rising More Than Normal
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2005, 01:03:49 PM »
Tom,

Since you made your Lehmann dough last night, you should be OK. It would be more of a problem potentially if your dough had already been in the refrigerator for a couple of days.

Basically, what happened to your dough is that it fermented faster and more than normal. There are several possible causes for this, but the most common and proximate cause is increased dough temperature. The ideal finished dough temperature for a Lehmann NY style dough is 80-85 degrees F. If a dough gets above that temperature, it will ferment and rise faster. The things that usually cause the dough to be warmer than optimum is use of warm water in making the dough, a warm room temperature, warm ingredients (mainly the flour), and the frictional heat produced by your stand mixer. Your KitchenAid model appears to be better than most, but if you kneaded the dough too long or at too high a speed, the frictional heat of the mixer could have been a major contributor to the buildup of heat in the dough. It's become a ritual for me to temperature adjust the water I use to compensate for the foregoing factors so that I am reasonably assured that the finished dough temperature will be in the optimal range when the dough comes off of the hook. It's especially important this time of year where kitchens are warmer than usual. Keep in mind that for every 15 degrees F increase in the finished dough temperature (up to 100 degrees F), the rate of fermentation doubles.

The other factors you mentioned, namely, the higher hydration level, use of Tupperware containers instead of metal containers and a somewhat warmer refrigerator can also increase the rate of fermentation. But they are less likely to cause enough of an increase in the rate of fermentation to be a problem. The increased hydration level will cause a faster fermentation because water is crucial to just about every chemical and biological action that takes place in a dough, and the more water there is the more everything gets exposed to it, and the higher the rate of fermentation. Using the Tupperware containers may not be as good as metal containers in getting a dough to cool down faster, but the contribution to a higher fermentation rate is likely to be minimal. If your refrigerator was a bit warmer than usual, that will affect the cooling of the dough also, but it is temporary and unlikely to affect the rate or degree of fermentation in any material way.

The amount of your dough is fine for your purposes. I looked back at the Lehmann recipe you are using for the 14-inch size and it calls for 9.73 ounces of flour. Four times that is 38.92 ounces--so 40 ounces is no problem. Your pizzaiolo is using a common rule of thumb that might be easy to use and spares you having to use a calculator to do a little bit of math, but using that rule of thumb will not result in different pizza sizes that have the same thickness factor (TF). The crust thicknesses of all the pizzas will all be different. Unfortunately, that rule of thumb dies hard.

Good luck. And best wishes for a happy birthday for your daughter :).

Peter


Offline tjacks88

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Re: Lehmann Dough Rising More Than Normal
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2005, 07:43:47 PM »
Hi Peter,

When I prepared the pizzas the other night the dough held together but stretched out way too far due to more than doubling in size during the rise. It probably would have worked out better if I had the room for an 18 inch pizza for these.

The dough temp was 81 degrees off the hook, I'm thinking the hydration percent was too high. The only other factor as mentioned previously was that I had a longer than normal mix time since this was my first time with 40 ozs of dough. The only other factor that I can think of was the way I mix - I usually put in about 3/4 of the dry ingredients, mix in the liquid gradually, then spoon in the remaining dry ingredients. I have found this really helps the Kitchenaid instead of dumping in everything at once. This may result in a longer mix time in general though as I usually start counting my mix time only after all ingredients are together an incorporated.

Any ideas?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Lehmann Dough Rising More Than Normal
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2005, 08:59:44 PM »
Tom,

With the amount of dough you are trying to make (4 1/4 pounds), you might want to try reversing the process. That is, instead of adding the liquid to the dry ingredients, do the reverse. I would first pour the water into the KitchenAide bowl, and stir or whisk in the salt until it dissolves in the water. That will take about 30 seconds to a minute. I would then combine the flour and the yeast (IDY) in a separate bowl, and gradually add the flour/yeast mixture to the water, a few tablespoons at a time, and combine using either the dough hook or the paddle, whichever is more convenient and works better for you. I sometimes just use a wooden spoon to get the process going and then switch over to the machine.

As you add the flour and it combines with the water, you will get a pretty good idea as to whether you have too much or too little flour in relation to the amount of water. You won't know for sure until you add the oil and knead that in. So I would hold back a little on the flour until the oil has been taken up into the dough to see whether you need to adjust the final amount of flour and/or water. Since I only make an amount of dough for one pizza at a time (all the Lehmann recipes are specified for single pizzas), it takes about a minute or two at most to work in the oil. In your case, it will take longer because you are making a larger quantity of dough. Once the oil has been incorporated into the dough, then you can knead the dough for whatever time it takes to produce a nice, smooth and elastic dough ball. The time it takes to do this will depend primarily on the speed of your mixer. And, with the amount of dough you are making, you can expect a longer knead time than if you were making dough for one pizza. So it's more important to pay attention to the condition of the dough rather than the time. Once the dough comes together and is smooth and elastic and not wet or dry, then you can stop the kneading--whether you were doing all the kneading at speed 1 or speed 2 or 3. I like to finish the process with about a minute of hand kneading to confirm that the dough is at it should be, and to shape the dough into a ball or whatever other shape I want prior to putting the dough into the refrigerator.

If, in the process of doing the above, you discover that you accidentally used too much water, as you indicated in your original post, then you can adjust for the error by adding more flour. If it is only a bit more flour, there is no need to adjust the other ingredients (yeast or salt). Otherwise, you may want to add and knead in a bit more yeast and salt to keep everything in balance.

If you find that the above approach doesn't solve the problem, then you can always resort to making two smaller batches instead of one large batch. Four and a quarter pounds is still a fair amount of dough to knead at one time, even in as good a machine as you have.

Please keep us posted, since I am sure others will benefit from your experience.

Peter




Offline Les

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Re: Lehmann Dough Rising More Than Normal
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2005, 09:18:48 PM »
Hi Peter,

This question is somewhat related to this thread  8)

I made up three pizzas for my friends at my racquetball club.  They have a nice convection oven where I can cook them when I am ready.  I put them on screens, and then in boxes until I'm ready to prepare them.

I cooked the first pizza 4 hours after assembling it.  The dough had risen somewhat on the screen, but overall the dough was a big hit.  Chewy and airy inside, while crunchy on the outside.

The second two pizzas I didn't get to until 3 hours later.  The dough had risen substantially more by then.  On both pizzas, the dough, tho cooked the same time as the first pizza, was dry and too crunchy (the top especially). 

My question is, was that due to the dough rising too much?  I am theorizing that the more it rises before baking, the thinner it will be, and so in a hot oven will dry out faster in the thinnests spots.

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Re: Lehmann Dough Rising More Than Normal
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2005, 10:24:21 PM »
Les,

It's hard to say what happened. Perhaps the dough dried out a bit while in the boxes. If the height of the crust was less also, then the dough may have overfermented. It's like an overfermented bread dough that collapses in the oven and produces a poor loaf.

Peter


 

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