Author Topic: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water  (Read 2085 times)

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Offline Pizzakoning

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Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« on: October 17, 2011, 08:47:35 AM »
I am very curoius about the way Heston Blumthal creates his dough.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uOng2plzZA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uOng2plzZA</a>


He add the yeast and salt after the water and flower are made to a dough. Is there someone who already tried this technique and what were the results?

Also he combines old dough with new dough. What is the opinon of the expert dought maker?


Offline scott123

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2011, 09:30:31 AM »
Dennis, adding yeast to a 12% protein flour, 55% hydration dough that's been mixed for 4 minutes and then allowed to rest for 15 is, imo, not the best idea.  I'm no yeast proofing fanatic, but I do believe pretty strongly in yeast dissolving, either by being added to the liquid prior to the flour, or, for Instant Dry Yeast, being added to the flour, prior to being combined with the liquid.  Adding yeast to kneaded and rested dough is, imo, a recipe for dough with pockets of undissolved yeast clumps.

Heston has had some interesting ideas, such as being a proponent for cast iron baking, but, overall, he's pretty much clueless when it comes to pizza.  Look at his pressure cooked sauce- that's just ridiculous.

If you've got an oven setup that can produce sub 90 second bakes, then I'd track down a Neapolitan recipe here and ignore Heston altogether.

Offline Pizzakoning

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2011, 09:36:41 AM »
i was just curious. The guy is a legendary chef. I haven't tried the sauce either, but my style is more pizza bianca anyway. So i don't put much sauce on it.

What oven would make a pizza in 90 seconds? I have a G3 Ferrari Napoli pizza oven, but still takes about 7 minutes to make a good pizza.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 09:48:36 AM »
Dennis;
I agree, that for anyone making pizza at home it is best to first suspend the yeast in a small portion of water before adding it to the mixing bowl. My own personal preference is to suspend it in a small container, and then add it to the dough water in the mixing bowl, which is my first ingredient going into the bowl, then I like to add the salt and sugar, followed by the oil and lastly the flour, since the salt and sugar are now in direct contact with the yeast, it is imperative that you begin mixing the dough right away. I know that the instant dry yeast (IDY) people say that you can add the IDY after mixing the dough for 4 to 5-minutes, but that is based on the presumption that you are using a mixer, and that you will be mixing the dough for an additional 5-minutes, or more, after adding the yeast. I don't even like adding it in the flour, when I'm hand mixing as I am not fully convinced that my style of hand mixing (minimal) will result in proper yeast dispersion.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pizzakoning

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2011, 09:55:27 AM »
Only recently i bought a mixer especially for the pizza dough making.

Mostly i bought this machine for convenience and less clean up afterwards.
The one i bought isn't as powerfull as the Kenwood major that Heston uses. I use a little brother of that machine, namely the kenwood mx275.
It is usefull but i only can make dough with max 500 grams of flower and with  that amount the dough is just wound around the dough hook when it is ready. Not really mixed. So adding the yeast at that stage was something i was very suspicious for.

But normally i make the dough just as you described it here.

Offline scott123

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2011, 10:57:59 AM »
The guy is a legendary chef.

No offense, but I disagree. He's a 'famous' chef, but, by no means 'legendary.' His fame was a result of getting into the molecular gastronomy scene when it was in it's infancy and leveraging that fascination with novelty into lots of TV exposure.  He's about as legendary as Emeril Lagasse, Paula Deen or Guy Fieri.  A true legend of the molecular gastronomy world would be Ferran AdriÓ- and he's smart enough to avoid making pizza- mainly because he's a chef and not a baker, but also because molecular gastronomy isn't in a position to improve upon it.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 11:15:52 AM by scott123 »

Offline scott123

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2011, 11:06:34 AM »
What oven would make a pizza in 90 seconds? I have a G3 Ferrari Napoli pizza oven, but still takes about 7 minutes to make a good pizza.

If you do a search in the forum, the G3 can be modded for faster, Neapolitan-ish bake times. The most tried and true oven for sub 90 second bakes is the wood fired oven (WFO).  An electric home oven that reaches 550 F. should be able to do 90 second bakes with the right kind of stone, although the weight of the stone will require special reinforcement for the oven shelf and, right now, until someone tries it, it's only theoretical. There's also the LBE, an outdoor BBQ that's modified with an extra powerful propane burner, but LBE's are especially difficult to get fast bake times from.

Offline Pizzakoning

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2011, 11:17:27 AM »
No offense, but I disagree. He's a 'famous' chef, but, by no means 'legendary.'

I know what you mean. I agree a litte bit, but anyone who earned three michelin stars should be taken very serious regarding food.

Offline Pizzakoning

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2011, 11:20:48 AM »
If you do a search in the forum, the G3 can be modded for faster, Neapolitan-ish bake times. The most tried and true oven for sub 90 second bakes is the wood fired oven (WFO).  An electric home oven that reaches 550 F. should be able to do 90 second bakes with the right kind of stone, although the weight of the stone will require special reinforcement for the oven shelf and, right now, until someone tries it, it's only theoretical. There's also the LBE, an outdoor BBQ that's modified with an extra powerful propane burner, but LBE's are especially difficult to get fast bake times from.

The method with the electric home oven sounds very similiar to what heston does with the cast iron pan.
I've read the threads about modifying the G3, but for now i am quite pleased with how it works.
Only thing that i would like to see changed is that it should be bigger.

Offline scott123

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2011, 11:56:46 AM »
Yes, steel has a long history of use in commercial pizza ovens, but Heston was one of the first to bring metal to the attention of home pizza bakers. His research scientist, Chris Young, took it a step further by suggesting steel plate in his book Modernist Cuisine.  Neither took it far enough for the kind of thermal mass required for Neapolitan bake times, though.  At least, I don't think Chris did.  In a discussion that I had with Nathan Myhrvold, he stated that Chris was working with 3/4" steel plate during his testing, but I don't think 3/4" steel plate made it into the book. I'm not reading MC until there's a Kindle version  ;D

In your first post, you mention pizza Napolitana and a future WFO, and, since Heston's using 00 flour, I just assumed that Neapolitan pizza was your goal. If you're happy with 7 minute bakes, then, by all means, stick with what pleases you, but, at some point, I suggest trimming those bake times and giving Neapolitan pizza a try. You don't have to wait until you have a WFO to enjoy Neapolitan pizza at home.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2011, 01:24:37 PM »
Pizzakoning,

Heston Blumenthal is using a classic Professor Raymond Calvel autolyse method. Professor Calvel was the "father" of that method. The yeast is left out of the flour and water mixture so that it doesn't acidify the dough. The salt is left out so that it doesn't affect the gluten during the autolyse rest period and so that it also doesn't affect the protease enzymes that cause the dough to become soft during the autolyse rest period. The autolyse method comes out of the breadmaking world, and particularly artisan breadmaking. It is almost never used in professional pizza making circles. For example, the pizza chains and mom-and-pop and independent pizza makers do not use it. An occasional artisan pizza maker might use it although it is common for the dough to include the salt and yeast during the rest period (so it is not a true Calvel autolyse). Some artisan pizza makers might use a riposo rest period at the end of the dough making process. I have Professor Calvel's book The Taste of Bread and have written often on the subject. So, if you would like to learn more about the autolyse method, you can do an Advanced search of the forum using the keyword autolyse and my forum name (Pete-zza). You will get 10 pages of hits. Leave out my forum name and you will get 24 pages of hits. As you can see, this is a topic that has been well covered on the forum.

The old dough (pre-fermented dough) method is also not a new one. But, as with the use of autolyse, the old dough method is not used in Naples. There are maybe a very small number of pizzaiolos in Naples who use a natural leavening agent but I do not ever recall their using the old dough method. Heston Blumenthal is using what I would call a "new" old dough since it is made especially for incorporation into the final dough as opposed to using a piece of a prior day's dough production. If you would like to read more about the old dough method, you can do another forum search under my forum name and, in addition, you will perhaps want to read the Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. There is also a companion article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.

I agree with the others that if one is using autolyse with a dry yeast, it is perhaps a good idea to rehydrate the yeast before using. Since you have a machine, that shouldn't be an issue in your case.

Peter

Offline Pizzakoning

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Re: Heston Blumenthal: Adding the yeast after flower+water
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2011, 04:23:52 AM »
I would like to thank you for the very interesting replies.  :D