Author Topic: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice  (Read 18396 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2011, 08:36:55 AM »
As I had posted in the MM’s thread at this reply
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg157997.html#msg157997  my pictures were deleted of my attempt at the Nancy Silverton’s Pizza dough.  All I can say without the pictures, is the pie did turn out well.  The dough was very soft and fermented well in the time since I had mixed it.  The dough ball was delicate, but could be stretched out well without sticking or tearing to a 14” pizza. I dusted the peel with light fine cornmeal.  Steve, my taste testers, and I all really liked this different pizza.  From the dark rye in the formula it sure made an interesting pizza, and gave the pizza a really different taste.  The rim was moist, and the pie had a decent crunch.  Steve said he might give the formula a go in his WFO.  I tried another experiment on the crust when the pie was baked.  Steve and I brushed the rim with melted butter with garlic powder, then sprinkled Paramesan cheese on the rim and then put the pie back into the oven for a little.  I wanted to try this because I had wondered if MM’s might be doing something similar to this to get a glossy look on their rims on their finished pizzas.  It did make the rim glossy, and it also made the rim a little browner,  but I don’t know if MM’s is using that method.  It was just an experiment.  If Steve looks at this post, he can comment on how he liked the pie and what it looked like, because he did eat some of the pizza.

Sorry, no pictures this time.

Norma


Offline pabsey

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Fargo ND
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2011, 05:48:48 PM »
Hi pabsey,
Any idea how much you reduced the hydration?   How long did you bake it at what temp?  I might try again with caputo and not primo guisto bromated flour.
I had it at about 62% hydration and cooked at 750-800 degrees. I use half Dakota maid all purpose and half Dakota maid bread flour.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 05:50:50 PM by pabsey »

Offline FVG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 39
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2011, 08:31:59 PM »
Posting some better pictures from last weekend

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2011, 08:43:59 PM »
Posting some better pictures from last weekend

FVG,

Your pizza looks very tasty in the pictures you just posted!  :)  I really like the crumb shot.

Norma

Offline thezaman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2041
  • Age: 61
  • Location: ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
    • lorenzos pizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2011, 11:19:14 AM »
norma, i picked up her book this week and tried her dough recipe last night.i cooked in my daughters oven which is gas but didn't get above 550 degrees.the dough took about 8 minutes to cook and didn't brown as much as i would have liked it to. i did margherita using my normal wood fired pizza sauce with the addition of sicilian oregano. the pizza was o.k it would have been much better cooked quicker at a higher temperature. not giving up will have to play with the oven to get it hotter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2011, 12:15:15 PM »
norma, i picked up her book this week and tried her dough recipe last night.i cooked in my daughters oven which is gas but didn't get above 550 degrees.the dough took about 8 minutes to cook and didn't brown as much as i would have liked it to. i did margherita using my normal wood fired pizza sauce with the addition of sicilian oregano. the pizza was o.k it would have been much better cooked quicker at a higher temperature. not giving up will have to play with the oven to get it hotter

Larry,

You pie looks very tasty from the recipe in Nancy Silverton’s book.  :)  I also want to play around with this recipe for this coming week.  I did really like the results and so did my taste testers. 

Did you have any problems with the high hydration dough and did you have to do stretch and folds?  How did you like the wheat germ and rye in the taste of the crust? 

Norma

Offline thezaman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2041
  • Age: 61
  • Location: ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
    • lorenzos pizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2011, 06:08:33 PM »
 the high hydration dough is a challenge. i tend to work flour around the outside of the dough ball to form it. then add flour to the peel and turn the dough to dry up the outside. i cannot work that type of dough on anything but a wood peel.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2011, 08:55:59 PM »
the high hydration dough is a challenge. i tend to work flour around the outside of the dough ball to form it. then add flour to the peel and turn the dough to dry up the outside. i cannot work that type of dough on anything but a wood peel.

Larry,

Thanks for explaining your method for managing this high hydration dough. 

Norma

Offline FVG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 39
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2011, 06:29:55 AM »
Wooden Peel with plenty of Semolina flour on it and tested more than once to ensure it would slide before adding any toppings. The stickiness aside it work quite well and was easy to stretch.


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2011, 07:45:11 AM »
Wooden Peel with plenty of Semolina flour on it and tested more than once to ensure it would slide before adding any toppings. The stickiness aside it work quite well and was easy to stretch.

FVG,

Thanks for posting you used plenty of Semolina flour.  Good to hear the dough was easy to stretch.  How did the baked pizzas turn out?

Norma

Offline thezaman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2041
  • Age: 61
  • Location: ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
    • lorenzos pizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2011, 09:57:34 AM »
FVG, your pizza had great color what temperature did you cook at? about how long did it take? last question what did you use for your sauce?the pizza looked really good. i think her dough is really good. i reminds me of a good french bread.

Offline FVG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 39
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2011, 05:53:33 AM »

The oven temperature was set to 525 - in my oven this gets the stone temp to 575. The stone is a Fibrament that I have had for quite a while and it cooks in around 6 to 7 minutes.

The sauce is just crushed tomatoes seasoned with garlic and onion powder, basil, pepper, and just a touch of cayenne pepper.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2011, 11:59:15 AM »
I mixed another attempt for a Nancy Silverton dough this morning using Mondako flour as the main flour, since it seems to be more in line with a bread protein flour.  The rated absorption is supposed to 62% and the protein level is supposed to be 11.9%  When mixing the formula it seems this flour is a better choice than the flour I used last week, because it didn’t need as many stretch and folds to get it under control.  I decreased the amount of ADY for a 2 day cold ferment.

Formula and dough ball.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2011, 12:00:43 PM »
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2011, 10:12:53 AM »
This is what my Nancy Silverton's dough ball looked like this morning.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2011, 11:18:34 AM »
The Nancy Silverton Dough worked out well yesterday.  There one thing I didn’t understand from the experiment I did yesterday, compared to the experiment I did this week.  This week there wasn’t as much rye flavor in the crust as last week.  I don’t know why that happened, when all I changed was flours in the formula.  I used Better for Bread flour last week, and Mondako flour this week.  I wouldn’t have thought the flour brand would have made a difference in tasting the rye in Nancy Silverton Dough.  The Nancy Silverton Dough was easy to open and slid off the peel well.  The taste of the crumb was good and different.

Thanks, Peter for figuring out a formula to try for one dough ball!  :)

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2011, 11:19:18 AM »
Norma


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2011, 11:20:09 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2011, 11:20:56 AM »
Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23363
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2011, 06:48:46 PM »
Norma,

I have set forth below the complete Nancy Silverton recipe and method (Total Dough Formulation, Preferment and Final Mix), both for the entire recipe and for a single 12” pizza. You can safely ignore the odd-value baker’s percents for the Preferments and the Final Mixes. Those are for me, or anyone else, to be able to recreate what I did or to use in the future for other versions or quantities.

Nancy Silverton Total Dough Formulation for Entire Recipe
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (84.6154%):
ADY (0.51282%):
Salt (1.9231%):
Honey (1.42308%):
Rye Flour (1.92308%):
Wheat Germ* (0.43413%):
Total (190.83161%):
737.1 g  |  26 oz | 1.63 lbs
623.7 g  |  22 oz | 1.38 lbs
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
14.18 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp (for Morton's Kosher salt, use about 3 tsp)
10.49 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
14.18 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 6.15 tsp | 2.05 tbsp
3.2 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.6 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
1406.62 g | 49.62 oz | 3.1 lbs | TF = N/A
*Bob’s Red Mill raw wheat germ
Note: Dough is for six 12” pizzas; no bowl residue compensation

Preferment (Entire Recipe)
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (115.385%):
ADY (1.02564%):
Rye Flour (3.8475%):
Wheat Germ (0.86827%):
Total (221.12641%):
368.55 g  |  13 oz | 0.81 lbs
425.25 g  |  15 oz | 0.94 lbs
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
14.18 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 6.15 tsp | 2.05 tbsp
3.2 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
814.96 g | 28.75 oz | 1.8 lbs | TF = N/A

Final Mix (Entire Recipe)
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (53.8462%):
Salt (3.8441%):
Honey (2.84629%):
Total (160.53659%):
368.56 g  |  13 oz | 0.81 lbs
198.45 g  |  7 oz | 0.44 lbs
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp (for Morton's Kosher salt, use about 3 tsp)
10.49 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
591.67 g | 20.87 oz | 1.3 lbs | TF = N/A

Nancy Silverton Total Dough Formulation for a Single 12” Pizza
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (84.6154%):
ADY (0.51282%):
Salt (1.9231%):
Honey (1.42308%):
Rye Flour (1.92308%):
Wheat Germ* (0.43413%):
Total (190.83161%):
122.85 g  |  4.33 oz | 0.27 lbs
103.95 g  |  3.67 oz | 0.23 lbs
0.63 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp (for Morton's Kosher salt, use about 1/2 tsp)
1.75 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.083 tbsp
234.44 g | 8.27 oz | 0.52 lbs | TF = N/A
*Bob’s Red Mill raw wheat germ
Note: No bowl residue compensation
 
Preferment (12”)
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (115.385%):
ADY (1.02564%):
Rye Flour (3.8475%):
Wheat Germ (0.86827%):
Total (221.12641%):
61.42 g  |  2.17 oz | 0.14 lbs
70.88 g  |  2.5 oz | 0.16 lbs
0.63 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.083 tbsp
135.83 g | 4.79 oz | 0.3 lbs | TF = N/A

Final Mix (12”)
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (53.8462%):
Salt (3.8441%):
Honey (2.84629%):
Total (160.53659%):
61.43 g  |  2.17 oz | 0.14 lbs
33.08 g  |  1.17 oz | 0.07 lbs
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp (for Morton's Kosher salt, use about 1/2 tsp)
1.75 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
98.61 g | 3.48 oz | 0.22 lbs | TF = N/A

Peter
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 08:18:28 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2011, 08:18:24 PM »
Norma,

I have set forth below the complete Nancy Silverton recipe and method (Total Dough Formulation, Preferment and Final Mix), both for the entire recipe and for a single 12” pizza. You can safely ignore the odd-value baker’s percents for the Preferments and the Final Mixes. Those are for me, or anyone else, to be able to recreate what I did or to use in the future for other versions or quantities.

Nancy Silverton Total Dough Formulation for Entire Recipe
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (84.6154%):
ADY (0.51282%):
Salt (1.9231%):
Honey (1.42308%):
Rye Flour (1.92308%):
Wheat Germ* (0.43413%):
Total (190.83161%):
737.1 g  |  26 oz | 1.63 lbs
623.7 g  |  22 oz | 1.38 lbs
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
14.18 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
10.49 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
14.18 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 6.15 tsp | 2.05 tbsp
3.2 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.6 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
1406.62 g | 49.62 oz | 3.1 lbs | TF = N/A
*Bob’s Red Mill raw wheat germ
Note: Dough is for six 12” pizzas; no bowl residue compensation

Preferment (Entire Recipe)
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (115.385%):
ADY (1.02564%):
Rye Flour (3.8475%):
Wheat Germ (0.86827%):
Total (221.12641%):
368.55 g  |  13 oz | 0.81 lbs
425.25 g  |  15 oz | 0.94 lbs
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
14.18 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 6.15 tsp | 2.05 tbsp
3.2 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
814.96 g | 28.75 oz | 1.8 lbs | TF = N/A

Final Mix (Entire Recipe)
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (53.8462%):
Salt (3.8441%):
Honey (2.84629%):
Total (160.53659%):
368.56 g  |  13 oz | 0.81 lbs
198.45 g  |  7 oz | 0.44 lbs
14.17 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
10.49 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
591.67 g | 20.87 oz | 1.3 lbs | TF = N/A

Nancy Silverton Total Dough Formulation for a Single 12” Pizza
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (84.6154%):
ADY (0.51282%):
Salt (1.9231%):
Honey (1.42308%):
Rye Flour (1.92308%):
Wheat Germ* (0.43413%):
Total (190.83161%):
122.85 g  |  4.33 oz | 0.27 lbs
103.95 g  |  3.67 oz | 0.23 lbs
0.63 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
1.75 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.083 tbsp
234.44 g | 8.27 oz | 0.52 lbs | TF = N/A
*Bob’s Red Mill raw wheat germ
Note: No bowl residue compensation
 
Preferment (12”)
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (115.385%):
ADY (1.02564%):
Rye Flour (3.8475%):
Wheat Germ (0.86827%):
Total (221.12641%):
61.42 g  |  2.17 oz | 0.14 lbs
70.88 g  |  2.5 oz | 0.16 lbs
0.63 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.083 tbsp
135.83 g | 4.79 oz | 0.3 lbs | TF = N/A

Final Mix (12”)
Unbleached Bread Flour (100%):
Water (53.8462%):
Salt (3.8441%):
Honey (2.84629%):
Total (160.53659%):
61.43 g  |  2.17 oz | 0.14 lbs
33.08 g  |  1.17 oz | 0.07 lbs
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
1.75 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
98.61 g | 3.48 oz | 0.22 lbs | TF = N/A

Peter



Wow Peter, thanks for doing all the work so anyone that wants to try Nancy Silverton’s Dough can now do it with precision with baker percents.  ;D I know I appreciate you doing all the calculations for me to try a 12” Nancy Silverton’s Dough pizza.  How long did those calculations take you to do?  I am glad you are mathematically inclined!

I have one question since I don’t really understand how a sponge is supposed to look when it is incorporated into the final dough.  I think I read that a sponge needs to look something like it falling before it is used. 

I have read different posts on the forum about sponges, being one at Reply 322 to Mike http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg87368.html#msg87368
Since the procedure listed under Nancy Silverton’s dough says the sponge should be ready in 1 ½ hrs., that doesn’t have to be strictly followed does it?   Shouldn’t the sponge employ minimal yeast to be allowed to ferment overnight to generate more acidity, which should improve the crust flavor as you stated in that post?  I also saw Toby’s (Infoodel) post about when he thought a sponge should be ready at Reply 19 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.msg87622.html#msg87622

You also answered me at Reply 167 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11578.msg107558.html#msg107558  about Marco said he had starters of two different consistencies, one for making pizza and one for bread.  Would the sponge posted in your formula be like one for making bread, since Nancy Silverton was a bread baker first?

I also just read you post to Giotto, about using a sponge or a biga at Reply 61 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,389.msg4315.html#msg4315
 
You also answered me in why the Alice Waters preferment (more like a biga than a sponge) might have helped that formula turned out well for me at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13321.msg131842.html#msg131842

I see where you posted that you did use a sponge for JerryMac’s basic recipe using Tom’s sponge method at Reply 28 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814
That pizza you made looked very good with a nice crumb structure.  :)

You posted to Andrea at Reply 3 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5741.msg48802.html#msg48802
That a sponge is good for sweet breads. 

I am very interested in trying a sponge dough, since I never really made a sponge dough intentionally.  At least it will give me more knowledge about how to use a sponge. 

One other question.  What bread flour do you think I should use in the first experiment for Nancy’s Pizza Dough?

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23363
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2011, 09:30:08 PM »
Norma,

You will note that I amended my posts with the Silverton dough formulations to indicate what amounts of Morton's Kosher salt to use in lieu of table salt. After I had posted the formulations, I noted that Ms. Silverton's recipe calls for Kosher salt. She doesn't indicate whether it is Morton's or Diamond Crystal, so I just went with the Morton's.

Most of your questions on sponges will fall by the wayside once I tell you that what Ms. Silverton uses in her recipe is really a poolish rather than a sponge. Just as the term "biga" is used somewhat generically to refer to preferments that are not technically bigas, the same sort of thing frequently happens with the term "sponge". It is basically a semantics issue. If I am using someone else's recipe, I will often use the preferment terminology of the author of the recipe even if it is not technically correct in my opinion. If you want to read more on this subject, you should read, or re-read, the Didier Rosada articles at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. All preferments have their origins in bread making but certain preferments work better for certain yeasted products than others. The Rosada articles discuss some of those applications.

I don't know whether November's new Hydration Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ is intended to calculate the absorption values of wheat germ (raw) and rye flour, but I decided to use it with data I found on the raw wheat germ and rye flour (medium) at the nutrition.self.com website. After adjusting for the absorption values of the wheat germ and rye flour in relation to the unbleached bread flour, I concluded that the ratio of the formula water to the sum of the unbleached bread flour, wheat germ and rye flour yielded a value of 1.06. A true poolish has a value of 1, representing equal weights of flour (or a flour blend in our case) and water. Where Ms. Silverton's poolish deviates from a classic poolish is that she uses a lot more yeast, in effect, to produce what one might call an "emergency" poolish. Considerably less yeast would be used if one wants to have the poolish pre-ferment overnight over a period of many hours.

Since you already know how a poolish is supposed to behave because of all of your work with the preferment Lehmann NY style dough, you should have no problem knowing when to use the Silverton poolish. The main difference is that the Silverton poolish will act a lot faster and expand a lot faster. So, you will look for the Silverton poolish to peak and then fall back upon itself.

On the matter of what bread flour to use, you might go with a standard unbleached, unbromated flour since Ms. Silverton is in California and perhaps uses an unbleached, unbromated bread flour.

It took me a few hours to put together the dough formulations I posted. It is brute force pencil and paper and calculator work and trying to find a way of using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html in ways for which it was not intended.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2011, 10:30:20 PM »
Norma,

You will note that I amended my posts with the Silverton dough formulations to indicate what amounts of Morton's Kosher salt to use in lieu of table salt. After I had posted the formulations, I noted that Ms. Silverton's recipe calls for Kosher salt. She doesn't indicate whether it is Morton's or Diamond Crystal, so I just went with the Morton's.

Most of your questions on sponges will fall by the wayside once I tell you that what Ms. Silverton uses in her recipe is really a poolish rather than a sponge. Just as the term "biga" is used somewhat generically to refer to preferments that are not technically bigas, the same sort of thing frequently happens with the term "sponge". It is basically a semantics issue. If I am using someone else's recipe, I will often use the preferment terminology of the author of the recipe even if it is not technically correct in my opinion. If you want to read more on this subject, you should read, or re-read, the Didier Rosada articles at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. All preferments have their origins in bread making but certain preferments work better for certain yeasted products than others. The Rosada articles discuss some of those applications.

I don't know whether November's new Hydration Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ is intended to calculate the absorption values of wheat germ (raw) and rye flour, but I decided to use it with data I found on the raw wheat germ and rye flour (medium) at the nutrition.self.com website. After adjusting for the absorption values of the wheat germ and rye flour in relation to the unbleached bread flour, I concluded that the ratio of the formula water to the sum of the unbleached bread flour, wheat germ and rye flour yielded a value of 1.06. A true poolish has a value of 1, representing equal weights of flour (or a flour blend in our case) and water. Where Ms. Silverton's poolish deviates from a classic poolish is that she uses a lot more yeast, in effect, to produce what one might call and "emergency" poolish. Considerably less yeast would be used if one wants to have the poolish pre-ferment overnight over a period of many hours.

Since you already know how a poolish is supposed to behave because of all of your work with the preferment Lehmann NY style dough, you should have no problem knowing when to use the Silverton poolish. The main difference is that the Silverton poolish will act a lot faster and expand a lot faster. So, you will look for the Silverton poolish to peak and then fall back upon itself.

On the matter of what bread flour to use, you might go with a standard unbleached, unbromated flour since Ms. Silverton is in California and perhaps uses an unbleached, unbromated bread flour.

It took me a few hours to put together the dough formulations I posted. It is brute force pencil and paper and calculator work and trying to find a way of using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html in ways for which it was not intended.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for amending your post for using Morton’s Kosher salt, for Nancy Silverton’s Pizza Dough.  I didn’t notice what kind of salt the recipe had called for. 

Lol, even Ms. Silverton doesn’t reference the right term on her recipe to use a sponge, when it should have been a poolish preferment.  At least you caught the mistake in doing the calculations.  I never would have caught that mistake.

I probably will try the formula you set-forth the way it is, but also might try a lower amount of yeast in future experiments in the preferment part.  If I don’t get enough rye taste in the first experiment (like my last attempt), I might add a mix of more rye in combination with the bread flour in the final dough.  Since the Mondako flour is bleached, I will search though my flours to see which one might be unbleached.  I still have the Better for Bread flour at home and might try that flour again, or look and see what other unbleached, unbromated flours I have at home.  I even forget which bread flours I have that are unbleached and unbromated.

Yes, I do know how a poolish is supposed to be when it is ready from the my work on the preferment Lehmann dough. 

Sorry, you had to go though the brute force with pencil and paper again, to be able to set-forth the formulas.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2011, 09:38:35 PM »
The preferment part of Nancy Silverton’s Pizza Dough was mixed this morning.  Since it is cool in my kitchen this time of year, the preferment took until late afternoon to look like it had bubbled enough.  The preferment was then incorporated into the final dough.  The Nancy Silverton’s Dough was really sticky. I did stretch and folds over a 2 ½  hr. time span. The dough was still sticky, so I added 10 grams of rye flour and kneaded it in by hand. The dough finally was okay, and could be formed into a dough ball.  The dough ball was also coated with dark rye flour.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24058
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2011, 09:41:22 PM »
Norma