Author Topic: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice  (Read 16724 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2011, 08:38:41 PM »
I think this was another one of my failed experiments.  My guess of why this experiment failed was because I added extra rye flour to the formula. Maybe the rye flour was responsible for lower rim rise and structure of the dough.  I donít know from the day cold ferment if that caused acidification of the dough or not. I havenít used rye flour in formulas before Nancy SilvertonĎs Dough, so I have no idea what rye does in pizza dough.  I also donít understand why Nancy Silverton Dough didnít have any yeast added in the final dough.  The Nancy Silvertonís dough ball did rise, but wonder if that also caused some kind of issue with the crumb and texture of the pizza crust.  I let the Nancy Silvertonís Dough ball rise at room temperature yesterday. The dough was easy to open, but I could feel there wasnít much bubbling in the dough, or enough structure in the dough.  The dough didnít want to tear, but something was wrong.

I still donít understand with the extra amount of rye that I used to control the stickiness in the dough, how the finished pizza still didnít have any rye flavor in the crust.  The crust tasted bland to Steve, my taste testers and me. 

I donít know if anything that Didier Rosada talked about in ďHow to Develop a FormulaĒ in the relationship to the amount of rye I used in Nancy Silvertonís Dough formula had something to do with my results or not.  http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/SFBINewsWI07.pdf

I donít know if I will be able to figure out what wrong with this dough and final pizza.

Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2011, 08:40:25 PM »
Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2011, 08:42:09 PM »
Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2011, 08:42:59 PM »
Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2011, 08:43:58 PM »
Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2011, 08:45:02 PM »
Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2011, 06:25:26 PM »
Peter,

I want to try the formula you set-forth again for this coming week to try to make a Nancy Silvertonís Dough, but wanted to know if you think I should change the bread flour to a high-gluten flour?  I just couldnít get the dough straightened out the last time (was way to sticky without adding extra flour).  It keep being sticky even after stretch and folds and reballs.  Do you also think maybe I need to drop the hydration some, in the final mix of the formula you set-forth for a 12Ē pizza at Reply 44 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16033.msg158880.html#msg158880  I think, but donít know, that my bad results were from adding the extra rye flour, or either the bread flour I used couldnít work well with that high of hydration.  I am still thinking over what went wrong.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2011, 07:59:39 AM »
Norma,

It looks like you are a gluten for punishment on this one :-D.

If you substitute high-gluten flour for the bread flour in Nancy's recipe, that should help but you may still find it necessary to add more flour as part of the Final Mix. As you know, it is quite common in artisan type dough recipes that call for high hydration to make adjustments to achieve a manageable dough by using bench flour at the time of forming the final dough ball, often in copious amounts (and very often not accounted for in the original recipe). In either case, whether you use bread flour or high-gluten flour, that will change Nancy's recipe and also lower the baker's percents of all of the ingredients but for the flour. That doesn't mean that the dough won't be functional, it will just be different. It is like what John (fazzari) has been doing by lowering the hydration levels in some of Peter Reinhart's dough recipes. In your case, you could add more flour to the Preferment or the Final Mix. However, if you end up with more dough than the recipe is supposed to produce (8.27 ounces for a 12" pizza), you will have to trim off some of the final dough to 8.27 ounces. Alternatively, you can use the total (untrimmed) amount of dough to make a slightly larger size pizza. If you go that route, I can help you calculate what that size pizza should be (in case you want to calculate it, it's 2 times the square root of the final dough ball weight divided by 3.14159 and the square of the thickness factor for the 12" size).

Peter

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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2011, 08:46:44 AM »
Norma,

It looks like you are a gluten for punishment on this one :-D.

If you substitute high-gluten flour for the bread flour in Nancy's recipe, that should help but you may still find it necessary to add more flour as part of the Final Mix. As you know, it is quite common in artisan type dough recipes that call for high hydration to make adjustments to achieve a manageable dough by using bench flour at the time of forming the final dough ball, often in copious amounts (and very often not accounted for in the original recipe). In either case, whether you use bread flour or high-gluten flour, that will change Nancy's recipe and also lower the baker's percents of all of the ingredients but for the flour. That doesn't mean that the dough won't be functional, it will just be different. It is like what John (fazzari) has been doing by lowering the hydration levels in some of Peter Reinhart's dough recipes. In your case, you could add more flour to the Preferment or the Final Mix. However, if you end up with more dough than the recipe is supposed to produce (8.27 ounces for a 12" pizza), you will have to trim off some of the final dough to 8.27 ounces. Alternatively, you can use the total (untrimmed) amount of dough to make a slightly larger size pizza. If you go that route, I can help you calculate what that size pizza should be (in case you want to calculate it, it's 2 times the square root of the final dough ball weight divided by 3.14159 and the square of the thickness factor for the 12" size).

Peter

Peter,

I sure donít want be a gluten for punishment on Nancy Silvertonís Pizza Dough, but wanted to see if it was possible for the formulation to work.   :-D  At 84.6154% hydration, I donít even know how someone uses that hydration for a normal pizza dough, without adding extra flour either in the mix or on the bench.  I did try to do all kinds of stretch and folds and also reballs with no luck.  I donít know how anyone could use Nancyís formula and be able to achieve a decent dough ball if you keep all the numbers the same.  I know John did decrease the hydration on some of the Reinhart doughs.  I will give the formula you set-forth another try, but will note what kind of flour I use, and also how much extra flour I had to use.  I sure am not good at doing the numbers to determine if I have a higher amount of dough (to calculate the size of the pizza), but will wait for help, if I can get a decent dough ball. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2011, 10:11:00 PM »
I finally did tame the beast!  ;D The Nancy Silvertonís Dough is soon ready to be balled and go for a cold ferment.  I used Power Flour in the formulation for this attempt.

Picture of preferment and pictures of dough during various stages.

Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2011, 10:12:10 PM »
Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2011, 07:15:43 AM »
At least the Nancy Silverton's dough ball could be formed.  Still don't know how it will bake though.  I didn't add any extra flour in the mix or on the bench.

Norma
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Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2011, 10:42:04 AM »
I have made some adjustments to the Nancy Silverton Mozza dough recipe and have posted them here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16437.msg160478.html#msg160478

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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2011, 11:45:21 AM »
I have made some adjustments to the Nancy Silverton Mozza dough recipe and have posted them here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16437.msg160478.html#msg160478


Tin Roof,

I saw your post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16437.msg160478.html#msg160478  and read with interest about you modifying the Mozza Recipe.  I had wondered how you handled the sticky dough, and also wondered what kind of bread flour you were using.  I didnít try barley malt in my Nancy Silverton Dough, but used honey.  Since Peter set-forth a formula in bakerís percent, I thought I would stay on my thread, and also watch your results on your thread since you also included a sourdough starter in combination with yeast in your modified formula.  I have used sourdough starters, but didnít think about using one in the Nancy Silverton Dough.  I can understand that would make a better tasting pizza. 

Do you mind telling me what kind of bread flour you are using in your formula?  I havenít had much success with my attempts.  I havenít played around a lot with real high hydration doughs, but I guess I will learn.  Congrats on your success with you modified formula.  :) 

Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2011, 01:26:35 PM »
I typically use King Arthur AP flour and high gluten flour I get at Smart and Final. I think it's called Romanella. 

The high hydration dough is a bit challenging sometimes.  I find that the "turns" really help to get the dough effectively hydrated and less sticky.  Also I can tell you that at Mozza they use bench flour very liberally when forming the pizzas, and they put plenty of corn meal on the pizza peel when they are dressing the pizzas. 

Regarding the barley malt, when I attended the Mozza pizza making class, they told us that the barley malt is an important ingredient as far as dough development goes, better than honey if you have it.  Same with the wheat germ.  Apparently it makes a significant difference in the development of the dough. 

It might be interesting to reduce the hydration of the dough a few percentage points to see what the difference would be in terms of managing the dough and flavor. I think this dough would still taste great at a slightly lower hydration. 

Thanks for your response. I hope you will be enjoying some turkey pizza later in the week! 

Regards,

Tin Roof

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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2011, 05:35:25 PM »
I typically use King Arthur AP flour and high gluten flour I get at Smart and Final. I think it's called Romanella. 

The high hydration dough is a bit challenging sometimes.  I find that the "turns" really help to get the dough effectively hydrated and less sticky.  Also I can tell you that at Mozza they use bench flour very liberally when forming the pizzas, and they put plenty of corn meal on the pizza peel when they are dressing the pizzas. 

Regarding the barley malt, when I attended the Mozza pizza making class, they told us that the barley malt is an important ingredient as far as dough development goes, better than honey if you have it.  Same with the wheat germ.  Apparently it makes a significant difference in the development of the dough. 

It might be interesting to reduce the hydration of the dough a few percentage points to see what the difference would be in terms of managing the dough and flavor. I think this dough would still taste great at a slightly lower hydration. 

Thanks for your response. I hope you will be enjoying some turkey pizza later in the week! 

Regards,

Tin Roof

Tin Roof,

Thanks for telling me what kind of flours you used for your formulation.  I agree so far, the high hydration is a bit challenging.  Thanks for telling me the turns really help to get your dough effectively hydrated and less sticky.  I didnít use any bench flour, so maybe that is one of my problems, too. 

I do have dry barley malt, but donít know if that is the right kind to use.  I did use wheat germ in the formulation. 

I think it would be interesting to decrease the hydration a little too.  I donít know if I will have turkey pizza this week, but if you do, hope you enjoy it. 

Thanks for your response and I will be watching your thread with interest too.  :)

Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2011, 07:26:39 AM »
Well, even after I tamed the beast of the high hydration dough and thought I left the preferment for the Nancy Silverton bubble enough, the results of my attempt were disappointing.  The dough was left out to warm-up for the better part of yesterday.  There almost wasnít any rise or fermentation going on in the dough.  The dough ball was easy to open with no stickiness, but when baked in the oven, there was hardly any oven spring.  The taste of the crust was also bland.  It makes me wonder if the yeast in the preferment was almost depleted, since there was almost no oven spring and a bland taste in the crust.  I had wondered before why no yeast would be added to the final dough, but now it even makes me wonder more, if yeast would have been used in the final dough if better results would have been achieved.  I had thought there is usually some kind of yeast added to a final dough when a preferment is used, but this formulation doesnít call for any yeast to be added in the final dough, unless it would be modified.  I sure canít figure out if I didnít mix the dough right, let the dough ferment longer, or maybe execute the formula right, or might have done something else wrong.
 
Does anyone know why my Nancy Silvertonís dough and pizza turned out the way it did?

Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2011, 07:28:53 AM »
Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2011, 07:30:17 AM »
Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2011, 07:31:38 AM »
Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2011, 07:33:24 AM »
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2011, 07:34:35 AM »
Norma
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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2011, 04:54:44 PM »
I searched all the web for pizza mozza recipe well before the book was published.

Recently bought the book to get the dough recipe.

Here is a picture of my last attempt of the fennel sausage pizza.

I made the sponge, let it rise for 1.5 hrs, then added the rest of the KA bread flour and let it rise in the fridge overnight.

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/7479/photosd.jpg


Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2011, 05:14:15 PM »
Looks like you got a nice rise on the edges. How did it taste? 

Tin Roof

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Re: Cook the Book: Nancy Silverton's Pizza Dough on Slice
« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2011, 07:46:50 PM »
thx for the reply Tin Roof,

We have eaten pizza at Mozza about 5 times.   I have heard that the only pizzas that might be tastier than Mozza's are Pizzeria Biancos in AZ, but I haven't been there yet.

My wife says that the flavor of my crust was better than Mozza.  But in MY opinion, the crust was NOT as nice tasting as Mozza's. Mozza seems to get a better rise and flavor. 

So, I still am on quest figure out the best recipe to duplicate this pizza.

I have read all that I could find about making this dough.

I have read your post of improved recipe (thanks for sharing), and would like to try it sometime.  But I'm not sure where to find sourdough starter, maybe I need to make it myself.

I have watched Peter Reinhart's videos of how the dough is made at the La Brea bakery (with that splash of secret ingredients).  Clearly Nancy doesn't want to hand over the recipe to her pizza and have copy-cat pizzerias making exact same dough. So, she formulated this recipe which is meant to work well in regular ovens, which it does.

But I need to figure out the best exact recipe that can be replicated over and over.

Last time, I had to divert from the recipe and keep adding dough to my KA mixer to reduce hydration to make the dough a little tighter, as I keep kneading it (before the over night dough rise).

I also tested baking the pie in my Big Steel Keg (komodo style cooker), where I was able to get the heat to ~700 degrees, but I had some problems, with bottom of the pizza burning (seems like stone gets hotter than the heat coming down from the dome of the Keg.