Author Topic: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.  (Read 5750 times)

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Offline DannyG

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2011, 04:57:26 PM »
I've been using AT for about 6 months now using 1% oil (EVO) and we are very happy with the results. If I get a chance I'll try to take some photos the next time I bake, which should be Friday.


Offline gabaghool

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2011, 05:42:10 PM »
Thank you!

Shows how little I know about flour....That crust I ate was NOTHING like other HG  flours I used.  I used AT for a few years and the crust was exactly the opposite of what I had a zuppardi's.  zups, was flaky, crisp, tender, but chewy when hot.  The next day it was THE softest crust I have ever had....

I agree with scott when he says a commercial place will be more than hesitant for any involved method of tenderizing AT.....anything like autolyse, things that take time or are the least bit complicated is a no no.

They MUST form that cornich differently than most NH places also.  In NH there is NO conscience effort to "form" a crust...in fact the first thing you are taught as a "pounder" is to "knock down" the edges.  This leads to that relatively small  edge you see in NH pizza.  But Zups is larger, puffier, which leads you to think that the pie is a lot thicker throughout...which isn't true.  Its thin, perhaps a BIT thicker than most NH, but still a thin crust....like NY I guess, which seems a tiny bit thicker than NH.

Thanks again for spotting the AT's.

Offline gabaghool

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2011, 05:44:46 PM »
But....look at that roni pie.....that crust is perfect to ME.  I know its a bit GB to others, but to me...it great.  I LOVE that little puffier edge, I love the color with the bit of char.....damn, they do a great job.

scott123

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2011, 05:55:42 PM »
...like NY I guess, which seems a tiny bit thicker than NH.

Between the deck oven, the rim, the ATs and the lack of char, this is really just an extra GB NY Style pie, imo.  I don't even think I'd classify it as a hybrid NY/NH. It's NY. The only truly NH thing about Zups is the clams.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 05:57:14 PM by scott123 »

scott123

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2011, 06:00:38 PM »
Shows how little I know about flour....That crust I ate was NOTHING like other HG  flours I used.  I used AT for a few years and the crust was exactly the opposite of what I had a zuppardi's.  zups, was flaky, crisp, tender, but chewy when hot.  The next day it was THE softest crust I have ever had....

Yes, AT is notorious for producing some of the chewiest crusts out there.  Something different is definitely going on here to make the AT tender.  And my money is on oil.  I've been pondering the possibility that they might be blending the AT with another flour, but, considering the access they have to lower protein flours, I find it unlikely.

Offline gabaghool

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2011, 06:08:14 PM »
I don't know what happened to the post I just THOUGHT i posted...but....

I really am starting to agree with you about the oil...I think its possible quite high..as in more than 3 percent maybe?

And, yeah, it IS more of a NY than a NH.....still no oregano though....in shakers on the side.  Isn't oregano a given in most NY creations??  I love oregano with pizza, don't know why so many NH places have an aversion to it.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2011, 06:42:27 PM »
I don't know what happened to the post I just THOUGHT i posted...but....

I really am starting to agree with you about the oil...I think its possible quite high..as in more than 3 percent maybe?

And, yeah, it IS more of a NY than a NH.....still no oregano though....in shakers on the side.  Isn't oregano a given in most NY creations??  I love oregano with pizza, don't know why so many NH places have an aversion to it.

Nick it makes sense that there is likely a good amount of oil in the dough.  How much, I could only guess and my guess isn't as high as Scott's.  I might try 2-3% and work up if needed.  If the oil is too high, I think you would lose some of the crunch factor.  I can't remember if anyone mention if there was much crunch to the rim or not.  Again, the dough looks like a well kneaded moderately hydrated dough.  If it's all trumps, without the oil, it would be tough.  Much chewier than what you experienced.  Also you thought the dough was flakey.  Even the crust looks a bit flakey to me.  That would point towards some kind of fat or oil in the dough.  

Chau

Offline gabaghool

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2011, 07:08:33 PM »
Yeah, Chau....when hot, the rim had a nice crunch to it.  It tasted like a french baguette or italian pane pugliese.

I offered a local artisan bakery my labor for free, a kind of apprenticeship....so I can learn the WHYS of flour, how and why they react and do the things they do.....he was receptive, but we'll see.  Hard to turn down free workers.

Think it would help??

scott123

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2011, 07:24:27 PM »
Chau/Nick, out of all my flour and oil testing, I spent the most time between 2-3% oil with 100% All Trumps, and, unless you barely kneaded it, it was leather city.  I was, at the time, kind of high on the hydration side of things, though, and increased hydration with AT definitely results in both toughness and lack of crispness, so... maybe, with less water, a combination of both tender and crisp might be achieved. Still, based on my experience with 3% + AT, I'd start with 4 and go higher. Here's where I'd start my testing

1st attempt:

All Trumps
61% hydration
4% oil

2nd

All Trumps
61% hydration
5% oil

3rd

All Trumps
59% hydration
4% oil

For all my tests, I would go with an overnight cold ferment and keep the kneading to a minimum to try and encourage a more rustic/uneven crumb.

Edit: Oh crud, do you think there's a chance these might be steam ovens?  Someone, somewhere has got to be using steam for pizza, and that steam would definitely go a long way in creating a brittle 'baguette' like crust.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 07:26:15 PM by scott123 »


Offline gabaghool

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2011, 11:07:31 PM »
Nah. Scott those were 4 ft bakers prides....no steam.  I did notice that the crust at Zups was similar in appearance to Apizza Scholls.  check out these pics:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2008/07/apizza-scholls-pizza-portland-oregon-or.html

And that crust was from a former BAKER.  Maybe, just maybe, Zups is unintentionally doing what Spangler does.  And spangler uses HG with a long warm ferm.  And I think that is similar to your quick cold ferm, scott.

There is SOME bread baking formulations going on here, whether they KNOW it or not......the only diff is that i think that Spanglers crust is a LOT crunchier and drier.  Maybe what zup would get if they cranked there ovens more and gave it a minute or so more.

Offline gabaghool

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2011, 11:08:33 PM »
But, scott, to get this right....short kneading, quick ferm and high oil (6%ish or so)  is that about right for a first experiment??

scott123

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2011, 01:51:10 AM »
Whew!  ;D Glad to hear it, Nick.  You mentioned baguettes and my mind went racing  :)

When I say an overnight ferment, I'm thinking full 24 hours.  First time, try 4% oil. The crumb doesn't have the kind of shade of more than a one day dough, but the exterior has the GB of either sugar or a longish bake.  Out of the two, I'd go with sugar. 1%

scott123

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2011, 02:37:03 PM »
Update:  The new Dewey's thread got me thinking about Zuppardi's.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16124.0.html

High oil, some blisters (more on the bottom) but with far less character than Zups (probably due to longer kneading and longer bake). The high sugar has me thinking Zups might have more sugar than 1%, but, for now, I think 1% is a good starting point.

Offline gabaghool

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2011, 09:19:26 AM »
Scott....I don't know if this helps....but when I saw the upskirt shot ont he dewys thread, I said to my self..."that looks a lot like Zups...minus the semolina or corn meal"   You know what I mean?? Some upskirts are pretty light with lots of char marks (not leapording but something else)  Zups was a an illustration of GB BUT with some charring also.  But those are definately two types of upskirt that I see constantly...actually 4.

BURNT
A LIGHT COLOR WITH PLENTY OF CHARRING
THE ZUPS BOTTOM...GB WITH SOME CHARRING (AND DEWY'S GB, NO CHARRING)
NO COLOR WHAT TO SPEAK OF....B/C
  1.tired stones
  2. oven guy isn't cranking up heat in busy times
  3. oven guy  not moving pizzas around to hot spot if needed.

Nice call Scott.

PS....Finally chucked the KA and bought a 10 gallon Globe mixer, safety cage, variable speed, hook, paddle, whip attachments.  Now, I can finally start experiementing.  A caterer was selling...$200, a good price for a machine that looks lightly used AND is the newer model.

scott123

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2011, 12:02:49 PM »
Nick, thanks for mentioning Zup's upskirts (Zupskirts?  ;D ).  Up until now, I hadn't found any upskirt photos.  I just dig some digging and found two.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4119/4903171189_064c340c7d.jpg

http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/20110826-Zuppardis-5.jpg

The first, paler upskirt was from a year ago:

https://eatitdamnit.wordpress.com/2010/08/18/zuppardis/

While the second more GB was from about a month ago:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/09/on-the-importance-of-fresh-pizza-zuppardis.html

Both are solid showings, although I have to admit, the pale upskirt is a little too pale/uncharred, while the GB is, for me, just a skitch too brown. The fact that there is char on the first, even if it's barely registering, seems to support my faster bake theory.  You generally don't get char like that above 6 minutes.

That's great about the Globe mixer. I'm curious, are you experimenting at home or at the shop?

scott123

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2011, 12:18:06 PM »
Nick, I made a couple of GBD pies tonight for you.  These were 3 hour emergency pies from start to finish.   I wanted to try out a few ideas and tweaked that PH recipe above.  The pies weren't bad at all but tasted more like American style pies than NY style.  They were a bit too tender.  Go figure right?

Chau, this is a little late, but would you happen to recall the kneading time, post kneading consistency, flour and bake time?

Up until now, I've been certain that oil is a GB facilitator/char inhibitor (deep fried foods never have char), but recently, I've been theorizing that it might be a kind of crumb equalizer as well.  The oily-er doughs that I'm seeing as of late seem to have less irregular and slightly finer crumbs.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2011, 12:45:06 PM »
Scott, because I was planning on using a 3% oil and wanted a semi tight crumb, I decided to adjust my amount of kneading up for this HG dough.  The hydration ratio is 64%  For these pies, I did a 1 minute mix in the bosch to incorporate the ingredients, followed immediatedly by a 5min mix, rest 20m, then another 3m mix (on speed 1).  At this point the dough was just spinning on the bottom of the bowl, so I removed it and hand kneaded another 5m.

Post kneading, the dough was fairly smooth especially after a 10m rest.  This was sort of a kneading experiment of sorts.  I did much more kneading than I normally would.

Chau


scott123

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2011, 01:26:08 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, Chau.

Offline gabaghool

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2011, 04:52:41 PM »
Scott
Im using the mixer at work.  Its just better set up in prepping, refrigerating and making pizza than at home.  I can also crank up the oven from our 550 when the time comes.

I think that oil IS NOT a reducer to char, though I believe wholeheartedly it can be a facilitator like you said.  The reason I say is doesn't reduce charring is that I have reheated DEEP FRIED FOODS thousands and thousands of times (especially our deep fried eggplant fries) and when reheated to long and too high of a temp....believe me they char....

Im so glad to be rid of the KA.......never mixing the bottom, etc......

Offline gabaghool

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2011, 05:17:02 PM »
Scott

I know I asked this when I first started on this forum, but I knew a lot less, so now that I've acquired SOME knowledge, Ill ask again....

Putting together everything I know about the bottom crust and the top cooking equally, I really cannot see how a gas deck oven will out preform an electric oven, in which I can control BOTH the top and bottom temps.  Unlike a dome shaped WFO, where the heat whips around the top and nails the toppings and cheese, a decks air temp just doesn't behave that way.  I can see cranking the therm, getting the stones real hot and the result being a scorched bottom and undercooked top.

But, do you thing the "DOME SHAPED BRICK PATTERN" of the MB 60 is a feature that really works or simply a marketing tool?

Thanks.

PS  Chau, I think you can better describe the action of a WFO than I can.

scott123

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2011, 05:32:57 PM »
Scott
Im using the mixer at work.  Its just better set up in prepping, refrigerating and making pizza than at home.  I can also crank up the oven from our 550 when the time comes.

I think that oil IS NOT a reducer to char, though I believe wholeheartedly it can be a facilitator like you said.  The reason I say is doesn't reduce charring is that I have reheated DEEP FRIED FOODS thousands and thousands of times (especially our deep fried eggplant fries) and when reheated to long and too high of a temp....believe me they char....

Im so glad to be rid of the KA.......never mixing the bottom, etc......

Nick, won't experimenting at the shop translate into a pretty late night for you?

I get the feeling that we might be defining char a bit differently. To me, char is more than just dark/burnt areas.  It's contrast. Leoparding is the extremest char you can find- black/almost black spots surrounding by relatively white areas.  As you move up the baking clock, the contrast drops, but contrast is still an integral component of char.  GB = even browning. Char = uneven browning.

I think that one of the biggest contributors to char is water evaporation.  As the heat of the oven blasts the exterior of the rim, certain areas dry out faster than others. Those drier areas will then brown faster, and, because darker colors absorb heat better, any brown areas will blacken quickly. Oil, because it doesn't evaporate, stays on the surface of the crust and distributes the intense heat a bit more evenly, producing less contrast/less char.

At least, that's my theory  ;D If your eggplant fries are experiencing high contrast browning when re-heating, then my theory could be off, but I think there could be more going on.  How are you re-heating them?

scott123

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2011, 06:03:03 PM »
Putting together everything I know about the bottom crust and the top cooking equally, I really cannot see how a gas deck oven will out preform an electric oven, in which I can control BOTH the top and bottom temps.  Unlike a dome shaped WFO, where the heat whips around the top and nails the toppings and cheese, a decks air temp just doesn't behave that way.  I can see cranking the therm, getting the stones real hot and the result being a scorched bottom and undercooked top.

But, do you thing the "DOME SHAPED BRICK PATTERN" of the MB 60 is a feature that really works or simply a marketing tool?

Nick, I believe it's always been my contention, that, with dual heating elements/dual controllers (as well as higher peak temps) electric ovens are far superior to gas, but that gas is kinder to one's utility bill.  At least I think it is.  I have to admit, I've never known anyone who's made the journey from gas to electric (or vice versa), so I don't have real world data on the difference in energy costs. I do know that gas ovens outnumber electric ones in the NY metro area by a vast majority.  I also know that using combustibles (mostly coal), to make steam, and then converting that steam to electricity, and lastly, using electricity to make heat, is a highly inefficient process compared to using a combustible (gas) to make heat, and where there's inefficiency, there's usually higher costs. If I was a betting man, I think it would be a safe bet that electric ovens cost more to run than gas, but without real world data, there's no way to tell for certain.

I could care less about the pattern they use for the bricks, but the bricks they put in the ceiling of the MB 60 are a valuable feature.  As you've already reasoned out, all gas ovens are severely handicapped from a perspective of top heat, so any thermal mass that can be added to a ceiling is a good thing.  But it won't ever match the kind of flexibility that you'll see with electric. Brick lined ceilings are making do with a bad situation, while electric ovens with dual elements/dual thermostats are just about total control- as long as they are high enough wattage/pump out enough BTUs for reasonably fast pre-heats and good recovery and the stones are nice and thick.  A low wattage oven with thinner than an inch stones is worthless.

Offline gabaghool

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Re: MINI NEW HAVEN TRIP.
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2011, 08:38:24 PM »
Thanks scott, as usual....you are invaluable.

1.  No, not every night will be long.  I think that one of the reasons I am getting so restless IS the fact that my partners don't want any of us actually WORKING.. MEANING physically working....ESPECIALLY PIZZA, cause while I owned a pizza shop previously, I brought in someone I considered THE BEST PIZZA MAKER I've ever run across...and he is.  BUT, he knows ONE way of doing things, and WILL NOT DEVIATE from it....regardless that we win NO AWARDS nor do we get much positive feedback on our pizza.  Very little negative, mind you, but NO  oooohs and aaahs.  Our pizza is simply good pizza.  GOOD. Thats all.  And any thing I would like to change meets with a flat out no.  ALL of our awards comes from our food, which is my department.  So now you know why I got itchy feet.

I'll have some late nites, for sure...and all my experimenting will have to be on the qt, but, to me, if I reach my goal will be SSOOOOOOO worth it.  To tell the truth, he's none to happy I bought a small mixer.....he's stubborn and ocd, but he ain't dumb.

As far as char goes...I think we are about on the same page.  I am after a golden brown WITH char spots.  And I think those char spots come from THIN dough layers.  Little bubbles in the dough with the skin is far thinner than the main crust. I think this dough bubble, being so thin, will char...and I can't see how oil would HINDER THAT CHAR.  YOU CAN CHAR with oil, if you overcook.  Personally, I think you are 100% on with your thought about oil.  It will help GB the non bubble surface and deep fry the bubble skin...if that makes sense.  The bubble skin dries out, the oil gets to work and "overbrowns" the thin skin......

Your theory ISN'T off on the eggplant fries.  Frying them initially rids the stick of water and all thats left is oil soaked cracker meal.  Certain spots will have little eggplant meat in contact with it,and certain spots will be pure meal coating....THOSE spots char.  As far as pizza crust goes, those thin skinned bubbles are oil soaked and the oil aides in browning, in this case, excessive browning.  Beyond those thoughts, its more complicated that I can understand at this point.

Now, on to electric ovens.  Im in full agreement.  I just can't see HOW an electric oven can't be superior.  The cost involved....well, that can be taken care of with what I charge per pie. And, in a busy place you are looking at 2000-2500 pies a week.  So the cost can be made minimal per pie. 

Pluse, the food cost associated with pies are around the best in the industry.  While the AVERAGE net profit for food items in a restaurant that RUNS a profit is around 4-5 percent, the average profit margin in a pizza place is anywhere from 15-20%.  So there is room to play with here.   And HERE lies the reason why so many places make mediorce to bad pies and survives.....the profit of so great.  I run a place with mediocre, non descript pizza, run it correctly, pay attention to the variables, and I can make a fortune on a 1M ANNUAL INCOME.  Me, personally would GLADLY give a portion of that up in order to have my pizza acclaimed as one of the best......and BELIEVE ME when I tell you...thats a sacrifice NONE to AN EXTREMELY SMALL PERCENTAGE would be able to give up.

My guess, electric ovens run expensively.  So be it......I want the best product I can get...and equipment plays a huge part in it. So me getting down a recipe and a procedure is simply the first tasks I have on hand.

However, your positve review of the MB 60 is interesting, and maybe its better than I had originally thought.  I'll find someone in my area who will allow me to play with em for a few evenings....making a final decision for myself.....BUT......knowing what i now know of how important bottom and top heat IS to a perfect pizza....I NEED to investigate an electric oven...and THAT will be more difficult..simply because of two reasons. The first is that most owners WONT have an electric oven BECAUSE they are more costly, and second...there is a real belief that electric will not be as good as gas.....which I now see as erroneous.  the best artisan bakers in my area ALL use electric ovens.....there has GOT to be a reason for it.

Im gonna get this crust down.....its just a matter of time, with help here. It will give me something to shoot for while I daydream during our endless P and L meetings that bore me to death.

Thanks again Scott.