Some advice for perfect dough -pizza party with G3 and 00 flour

[Pizzakoning]

Hi, I was hoping some of the expert could give me some advice for making the ideal dough for neapolitan style thin crust pizza.
I am reading all sorts of receipes and i am kind of lost now what to use percentage wise.

What should be ideal the hydration level for a dough baked in a Ferrari G3 oven?
I am using 00 flour. And i am also curious wether or not to use sugar in the dough and how much salt/yeast i should use.
From what i understand i should mix the water with salt first then the yeast for optimal result.
I prefer to let the dough cold rise for about 24 hours.

This sunday i am throwing a pizza party for friends and family. That should be quite a challenge with 12 people there. Only equipment is my G3 pizza oven and a normal household oven which goes up to 285 degrees celsius.

I am very curious about your thoughts. Thanks!


Dennis

[scott123]

Dennis, Neapolitan pizza is defined almost entirely by it's bake time.  There's not a recipe on this planet that will give you Neapolitan pizza in 7 minutes.  If you take a Neapolitan recipe and use traditional 00 pizzeria flour, but bake it for 7 minutes, the results will be less than satisfactory, because the flour and the recipe have been completely engineered for sub 90 second bakes. You might find one or two people on this forum who think 00 tastes okay with longer bake times, but the vast majority feel that it suffers tremendously.

Are you running the g3 at it's highest temperature?  I know you're not interested in modding it right now, but I think if you cranked the heat as high as it will go, you might be able to get into a more NY style bake time- 5ish minutes. You can also, with the right stone, get NY style bake times out of your 285 c. oven.  Suitable flour for NY style can be a bit tricky to find in parts of Europe, but I'm certain you can track some down.

[The Dough Doctor]

PK;
I would suggest using only flour, salt, water and yeast for the ingredients.
A good starting point might be as follows:
Flour 100%
Salt 1.5%
Compressed yeast 1%
Water 68% (70F/21.1C)\

Put the water into the mixing bowl, add the yeast and stir until the yeast is suspended, add the flour and the salt and mix just until the dough begins to come together, then set aside and allow to ferment for about 2-hours, turn the dough out onto a floured bench and knead for a minute or so. Form into dough balls, and lightly oil, place each dough ball into a plastic bag, seal by twisting the open end of the bag into a pony tail, and tuck the pony tail under the dough ball as you place it into the fridge. Allow to ferment for 18 to 24-hours, then remove from the fridge and allow to temper AT room temperature for 1-hour, then turn the dough out of the bag into a bowl of flour and open into pizza skins. There are many methods for making the dough but this is one of the easiest I've come across.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[Pizzakoning]

thanks for the replies. Very much appreciated!  

@scott123
If i understand correctly: NY Style pizza is somewhat like the neapolitan pizza only baked longer. So people who do not have a wood oven and like neapolitan pizza should go for the NY Style pizza's?


The g3 pizza oven really needs 5-7 minutes to bake the pizza pies.

I am using a technique i've learned from this forum. The G3 pizza oven gets warmed up for about 10 minutes.. So the stone is not so hot that it makes the dough burnt black. Once the pizza is popped in, turn the dial and make sure the upper heating element is on.

I get pretty good pizza from it, but i need a wood oven...  
And i've read the modding topics, but i honestly do not see the improvement? The baking time is about the same as an unmodified G3 oven. Maybe a minute less?

What do you think about ovens like this one?
http://www.ggf-srl.it/en/forni-per-pizza-serie-e-micro-a.html
http://www.buycatering.com/cuppone-single-deck-micro-pizza-oven-d128551.html
Both goes up to the magical 500 degrees celsius.
Should this make the perfect neapolitan pizza?

But finally: you think i should normal flour instead of the 00 flour?

@The Dough Doctor

What kind of flour do you suggest i should use? The normal or 00?
The amount of yeast you suggest is very little? Much less then other receipes, but i trust you on this one.
And should the dough balls not touch inside the fridge? The available space could be an issue for this pizza party.

Thanks!!

[buceriasdon]

Dennis, I assume the photo of the pizza you posted was baked in the G3? It has that pale crust color I have seen before when people use the G3. A question: Does your oven have a broiler that you could place a pizza stone under and bake the top a bit more after first baking in the G3?
Don

[Pizzakoning]

Yes, that is correct,
But the color depends ofcourse on the baking time.
Maybe i pulled it out too quickly

I don't have a pizza stone for my normal oven, but please explain what difference it would make to put the pizza under a broiler of a normal oven? I think broiler is the same as a grill?

The G3's upper heating element is the same as a grill? And it has a pizza stone already there. So what is the benefit? 

Thanks.   

[buceriasdon]

Dennis, Thank you for the clarification on the G3 baking the top more with more time. I have another question for you: What hydration ratio, water to flour, are you using presently? Also how are you storing your doughballs in the fridge at the moment? Thanks, Don

[Pizzakoning]

This is my main receipe at the moment
½ liter water
900 gram flour
25 gram salt
7 grams of dryed yeast (dr oetker)
Sorry. I am in the metric system part of the world
i have to find out how to calculate the ratios.

This makes about 9 pizzas for the G3. It isn't a big oven.


I store the dough after mixing for 24 hours in one container
three hours before baking i get the complete dough out of the fridge and and makes small balls of them 2 hours before baking

[buceriasdon]

Dennis, I also in am the metric part of the world but grams are grams anywhere in the world.  Ok, here is how to calculate the ratio of water to flour. 1/2liter of water weighs 500 grams. Divide 500 by the weight of your flour, 900 grams, and the answer is .55%. If you want to calculate a higher ratio, for example 68% water, multiply 900 grams times .68 and your answer is 612 grams of water or 112 grams more water with a resulting dough that will be quite sticky and perhaps for you difficult to handle. If I was you and I had the time, I would make one test batch at 68% hydration and open and prepare a crust and bake it to see if you are comfortable with the higher ratio before the party. It's of course up to you. Best of luck.
Don

This is my main receipe at the moment
½ liter water
900 gram flour
25 gram salt
7 grams of dryed yeast (dr oetker)
Sorry. I am in the metric system part of the world
i have to find out how to calculate the ratios.

This makes about 9 pizzas for the G3. It isn't a big oven.


I store the dough after mixing for 24 hours in one container
three hours before baking i get the complete dough out of the fridge and and makes small balls of them 2 hours before baking

[Mmmph]

Place a small fan blowing across the rear end of your G3. It will get hotter by not cycling off when it hits peak temperature.

[scott123]

Dennis, the way I see it, I think it's a lot to expect for you to go looking for bread flour and start fresh with a NY style recipe for Sunday. It would make a far better pizza at the temps you're working at, but there's going to be a learning curve and I don't think there's a lot of time to play around.  Based on that assumption, I'm going to first give you some tips to improve your current recipe by Sunday, and then, later, I'm going to give you my recommended next steps for going into the future.

For Sunday

You've got the 00 flour, so, for now, stick with it.  The typical range of hydration for Neapolitan pizza dough is between 54% and 62%.  You might find some NY style recipes that go as high as 68%, but never Neapolitan. 68% hydration with your flour/equipment, would be a recipe for disaster.  Because of your longer bake time (longer bake time=more evaporation/drier crust), you want to go a little higher than normal, but not 68.  Your present recipe, as Don pointed out, is 55. I would bump that up to 58%.

Here's the revised recipe that I recommend:

522 gram water
900 gram flour
25 gram salt
7 grams of dryed yeast (dr oetker)

Tell us about your flour.  The term '00' only describes the fineness of the grind.  You can have high protein 00 flour (good for pizza) and you can have low protein 00 flour (bad for pizza). The easiest way to tell if you've got the right 00 flour for pizza is if there's a photo of a pizza on the bag.

Always ball your dough at least 5 hours prior to forming.  2 hours is just not enough time for the gluten to relax.

I did some research on the G3 oven.  If you know what you're doing, you can squeeze faster bake times out of it.  I don't think you'll hit Neapolitan times, but you can definitely trim some time off that 7 minutes and that will help your crust immensely, even with 00 flour. Mmmph's suggestion to point a fan at the back of the oven is a good one.  Beyond that, I think the best course of action is pre-heating the oven to the 2.5 mark on the dial, waiting for the light to turn off, then cranking it all the way, waiting a moment for the burner to get bright red and then launching the pizza.  Ideally, the top element will be on for most of the bake and give you good top browning.  If it cuts out and you don't get enough top browning, then, next time, pre-heat the oven to the 2 mark. The lower temp that you pre-heat the oven to, the longer the top burner will stay on for.

No matter what you do, as Don suggested, you'll want to do a trial run between now and Sunday, so start making your dough as soon as possible.

This isn't going to be easy to track down, but your best insurance policy for a burned bottom crust is some kind of pizza pan or screen.  Here's what a screen looks like:

http://www.amazon.com/American-Metalcraft-Pizza-Screen-12/dp/B000SBLWZS

Don't ask me where to get something like this in the Netherlands, though.  If you can't get a screen, you'll want a pan- ideally a flat round piece of metal- aluminum or steel, that you can slide under the pizza but still close the top of the oven. The benefit of a screen or a pan is that they put something between the hot stone and the bottom of the crust and slow down the browning. I would suggest checking the bottom of the pizza after 3 minutes, and, if it's beginning to get a bit dark, slide a pan or screen beneath it. Ultimately, you'll be to a point where you'll set the dial at the perfect temp and not need the screen/pan, but for now, it's a good insurance policy for preventing burned undercrusts. You'll never want to start the pizza on the screen/pan, by the way, because you need the initial burst of heat to get good spring.

Is your dough doubling in volume prior to forming?  If it isn't you need more yeast. If it's going past double and deflating, then you need less yeast.

Beyond Next Sunday

But finally: you think i should normal flour instead of the 00 flour?

Absolutely.  Unless you have an oven that can produce sub 90 second bakes you should NOT be using 00 flour.  At least not 100% flour. I know some people have success with blends, but I think, for the bake times you'll be hitting with your g3, normal flour is the way to go.

This is NY style pizza:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.slashfood.com/media/2008/01/joe_s-new-york-pizza.jpg

This is Neapolitan:

http://cooklikejames.typepad.com/.a/6a010536eec1a6970c0133ed6928e9970b-800wi

On this forum, I'd say the number of fans of each style is split down the middle, because Neapolitan pizza caters more to obsessives, but in the real world, NY style fans generally outnumber Neapolitan ones.  If you're throwing a party, it depends on who your guests are, but I think both styles will go over well, with the NY making a slightly bigger splash in areas of the world where great NY style is not that common.

Those ovens you posted links to are a bit of a toss up.  There's really no way to predict whether or not they'll be sturdy or built well.  Even if they are built well, they generally don't reach temps that will guarantee Neapolitan temps.  Technically, 500C should do it, but I don't know anyone with a countertop oven doing Neapolitan.  Countertop ovens are more of a coal/NY style thing, with only one brand (that I know of) being reliable.

Start looking for bread flour for NY style.  If you've got a French bakery near you, they might be able to point you towards a distributor and/or sell you some flour. Your goal should be somewhere between 12 and 13.5% protein.

This what can be achieved with the G3 with bread flour:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5049.0.html
http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/07/my-pizza-oven-rene-walhouts-countertop-pizza-oven.html

They're not Neapolitan pizzas, but they're great pizzas that your friends and family will love (much more than 00 doughs with long bake times)- until you get around to building the WFO.

Get past Sunday and, then, from there, it's onward and upward.

[Pizzakoning]

I am very grateful for al the advice! Mille mille grazie!  


And NY style is indeed my preference. I understand the difference now and i know that neapolitian is not possible right now with my setup
(damn this pizza-passion!)

First of: this is the flour: http://www.molinochiavazza.it/p_fc_1.html
It is a mail order that supposed to arrive today.

But it isnt a problem if i have to use normal supermarket flour if that is better. I have some normal cheap flour allready here.
Bread flour is being sold in all kinds at the supermarkt, but that is a complete mix with yeast and some more things allready in it.
I doubt if that will be usefull for making pizza. All supermarkets i visited in my city only sell 1 kind of flour. With the exception of 1, which sells 00 flour with the yeast allready in it for  making pizza. I am not a fan of yeast allready mixed, but the results were very good.

I dont have a fan which i can place behind the G3 oven and i dont have room for that in my working area. Space is very much an issue in my current kitchen. (The kitchen will have a big renovation in the near future to increase the size.)
But you say the oven will get hotter then normal, but that is not the problem with this thing
Main problem is that on full power, the bottom of the pizza becomes burnt (black) and that the topping is not fully done. So i don't understand what benefit a fan would mean.
Alternative could be to do the warmup with the lid open so that the stone doesn't get too hot from the upper heating element.

The screen is nice idea which i think should work with the oven on full power, but i wouldnt know where to get one before sunday. Also: the salespitch of the G3 oven says that the pizzastone is there to take in moist from the dough and make the crust better?
And another problem i see is that it would be more work to put the screen in every three minutes after first putting the pizza in.
This would increase the chance of getting a black pizza accidently if i placed the screen to late. (Again if the oven is on full power)
What you say about turning the dial to 2.5 and the up after the pizza is in is the way to go!

I wil make some dough with normal flour and a higher hydration level in a few hours so i can experiment with the oven some more. But i feel confident enough to say that the pizza party will be ok. Hard work, but OK. Most of my friends arent the pizza enthousiast i am
I've made lots of pizza already with it and the dough tastes good.

Should i really stick exactly to the water amount in the receipe or should i use my intuition if i think that the dough needs soms more water or flour?
I understand from your story that sticky dough isn't always a problem. So it is better to have sticky dough then dough that is too dry before the first rise?

And the dough balls... I need about 24 of them for the party. I definitely need some containers to put them in so i can keep them separate :/

[Pizzakoning]

quick update. I just tried the receipe from the dough doctor, but using 68% water is not working for me with the normal flour. After making the dough and letting it rest for 2 hours, making dough balls was impossible to do.
The dough was incredibly sticky and unworkable. It sticks so much I had to add a lot of flour before it could be made into balls.

The 00 flour has just arrived and i'm trying the receipe from scott123 in a few hours and i am going to keep the directions from the dough docter.
To be continued....

[scott123]

Dennis, bad news, that's the wrong kind of 00 flour  From what I can tell, it's 9 g of protein per 100 g, so that makes it 9% protein.  Pizzeria 00 flour should be in the 11-12 range. I don't even think this flour is worth messing around with.

Go to the supermarket and see what kind of protein there is in that '1 kind of flour' you referenced.  As you already know, you definitely want to avoid anything that has the yeast already added. Your goal should be to find a flour with 11-13 g of protein per 100 g. Do you have any bakeries in your vicinity? If you explain your needs to them, perhaps they could help.

I have more to say, I just wanted to catch you before you wasted any more time with the 9% flour.

[Pizzakoning]

That is bad news!     !!!  
But is it italian flour? It is being sold as flour for making pizza and it says so on the packaging!??
I feel let down by this shop. The other products i ordered are also of not so good quality  

It is very hard to find out the protein level of flour in the shops. It is almost never mentioned on the packaging. I just fond one dutch brand online with 12g per 100g, but i still have to find out where this is being sold.

So normal flour with 12g protein per 100 grams should be the one to get?
I will try to make some dough tonite with the italian stuff as a test.

[scott123]

I think your best is going to be something like Makro or Sligro. Both should have bulk bread flour. There's a Sligro in Tilburg and a Makro in Best

Sligro
Ringbaan Zuid 13, 5021 AA Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 543 2664 () ‎ · sligro.nl

Makro
Brem 4, 5684 PB, 5684 PB Best, Netherlands
+31 900 2025300 () ‎ · makro.nl

Apparently, The only thing is that you need a pass to shop in both, and you can only get this as the owner of a company (registered with the Dutch Chamber of Commerce (KvK). So you will have to ask colleagues/friends to see if they have one

We have similar sort of business only places here, but occasionally you can find some sort of loophole like saying you forgot your pass or that you've registered but have yet to receive the paperwork but need to buy a few things. Since I'm 99% certain that one of these places will have what you need, it's worth a shot.

I also pulled up some bakeries from Google.  Now... I'm not sure if these are wholesale places or retail, but I would just start making calls. Ideally, you're looking for 12%-13% protein spring wheat flour, but any 12% flour will do (12 g per 100 g). Any good baker should know the exact protein percentage of their flour, and, if they're nice, they might sell you a few kilos.

Bakker Bart
Heuvelstraat 85, 5038 AC Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 581 0716 () ‎ · bakkerbart.nl
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Bakker Boogers
Ringbaan Oost 115, 5014 GB Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 542 1788 () ‎ · bakker-boogers.nl
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops
1 review
"Heerlijk vers brood en gebak!" -

Ammann L H W M
Molenbochtstraat 46, 5014 ER Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 542 1846 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Echte Bakker Theo Pastoor
Heuvelstraat 137, 5038 AD Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 536 2334 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Bakkerij Floor van Lieshout
Photo
Wagnerplein 24, 5011 LP Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 455 4668 () ‎ · bakkerfloorvanlieshout.nl
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Echte Bakker Theo Pastoor B.V.
St. Josephstraat 70, 5017 GJ Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 542 5955 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Bakkerij Van Iersel BV
Photo
Ledeboerstraat 27, 5048 AC Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 468 5945 () ‎ · vaniersel.meesterbakker.nl
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Ambachtsbakker Smolders
Photo
Pater van den Elsenplein 38, 5022 EG Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 542 5974 () ‎ · bakkerijsmolders.nl
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Bakkerij Van Iersel BV
Bredaseweg 130 A, 5038 NJ Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 543 1784 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Martin Ambachtelijke Bakkerij
Heuvelpoort 370, 5038 DX Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 536 5371 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Nunen Banketbakkerij Govert van
Westermarkt 25, 5042 MD Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 467 1546 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Bakkerij van Dijk
Veestraat 86, 5021 PT Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 542 2685 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Bakkerij Floor van Lieshout
Photo
Oerlesestraat 211a, 5025 DB Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 542 1552 () ‎ · bakkerfloorvanlieshout.nl
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops
1 review
"Lekker maar duur..." -

Bakkerij J. Kriellaars
Johannes van Zantenstr 36, 5025 VZ Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 468 2304 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Schellens Bakkerij BV
Amer 15, 5032 AZ Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 467 1521 () ‎ · schellens.nl
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Van Riel / J P A
Hasseltstraat 142, 5046 LN Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 543 9379 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Bakkerij Afrah
Bernardusplein 20, 5042 HP Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 6 47001533 (Mobile) ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Mulders / P J M
Laarstraat 17, 5025 VJ Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 463 3959 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

Schellens Bakkerij
Buurmalsenplein 5, 5043 XL Tilburg, Netherlands
+31 13 570 1789 () ‎
Category: Bakeries, Bread And Cake Shops

[Pizzakoning]

Hahaha, very good Sherlock. Are you dutch too?
I know Sligro has 00 flour. But it only sells 25kg bags!! Bit too much for me But maybe i go look there tomorrow.

And it needs a card, yes. But i would be able to get one.

The bakery you mentoined: Ammann is just around the corner from here.  I just went there asking for flour and the guy couldn't tell me the protein level.
So that is kind of examplary for the situation regard flour in the Netherlands.
There aren't lots of bakers here who make their own bread in the city. Most use just pre-made mixes or are being supplied from a larger factory in the morning.

[scott123]

Nope, I'm not Dutch  Google, for the win 

You definitely don't want 25 kg of 00, but if they had 25 kg of bread flour, I'd go for it. If stored properly, it should last you a while.  Just throw some more parties 

[scott123]

As far as the baker that can't tell you the protein level, is there any chance he could show you a bag? He should know if the flour has yeast in it, right?  If there's no yeast in it and the bag is labeled 'bread' and/or he's only using it for bread (not cookies or pastries), AND he's willing to sell you a kilo or two, I say go for it. You can always, with our help, figure out a flour's approximate protein level.

[Pizzakoning]

Well, i am going to a very large supermarket tomorrow morning and inspect very closely the flour they have there.
And if that is not working, i am going to call some other bakers nearby.