Author Topic: So much to learn...  (Read 4578 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2011, 01:43:59 PM »
Salvatore,

I agree with what the others have said on the matter of yeast and sugar depletion. Member pizzanapoletana (Marco) once said that it would take around 5% yeast to exhaust the natural sugars in a dough, as I noted in the last paragraph of Reply 84 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg34547.html#msg34547. Also, I learned from personal experience that it is possible to make and cold ferment a dough with no added sugar but with a small amount of yeast for a period in excess of 20 days (I once made it out to 23 days) and still get a pizza with a finished crust with color and sweetness. For an example of a 10+day cold fermented dough and the pizza made from it, see Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370. Other examples are cited in the post at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11344.msg106401/topicseen.html#msg106401.

Peter

cornicione54

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2011, 02:33:03 PM »

Enzymes are proteins that are catalysts and are naturally occurring in the flour and their job is to help along a naturally occurring process.
Scot

If dough fermentation were to rely solely on the enzymes found in flour, then we'd never get anything done! (or at least spend a whole lot longer twiddling our thumbs).
Yeast (IDY, ADY, baker's yeast strains) contain/produce all the enzymes necessary to break down starch chains and furthermore metabolise the simpler sugars (producing ethanol and CO2 in the process). Some of these are secreted by yeast cells while others are intracellular. Same is true for yeast strains found in sourdough cultures except often they cannot metabolise maltose (certain lactobacilli assist in that respect).

« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 03:05:03 PM by cornicione54 »

Offline scott123

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2011, 05:44:38 PM »
Salvatore, I'm still curious about the broiler- is it on for the whole bake or does it cycle off and on?

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2011, 08:15:04 PM »
Thanks for all the information... I have quite a bit of reading to do!  Pete, thanks for such a thorough reply.  I am anxious to read about your extended ferments.

The broiler does stay on the whole bake because I leave the oven door ajar.  I think, unfortunately, I'm stuck for the time being with the oven I have, although I think the current setup is the best I've tried so far.  To be completely honest, I am so happy with the crumb, texture and taste, I'd be reluctant to change my formula too much.  I think now I will consider what other changes I can make to the oven to achieve more browning. 

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline scott123

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2011, 09:09:02 PM »
Salvatore, I hate to keep harping on this, but are you watching the broiler during the bake?  The reason I ask is that, because the stone is so close to the broiler/close to the thermostat, that even an open door may not let out enough heat to allow the broiler to stay on.

If you haven't stood there and watched the broiler for the entire bake, give it a try one of these times.  Gas broilers can be weak, but they shouldn't be this weak.  If an electric oven broiler can do Neapolitan class leoparding in 90 seconds, I would think a gas oven could do something similar in 3 minutes.

If, on the other hand, you have watched it bake and are certain the broiler never turns off, I think you could be getting the maximum of what your oven can do. At some point, you might want to see what dropping the hydration to 58% gives you, but, in the meantime, you should be very pleased.

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2011, 09:41:54 PM »
Scott,

I am 100% absolutely positive the broiler stays on during the whole bake.  As I said, I have the door open and I'm crouched down watching the entire process.  What I noticed this last time is there are definite "hot-spots" where, as I become more familiar, I can utilize to get the most heat.  I will hopefully achieve a better result later this week, and I'll take it from there.  Otherwise, I think you might be correct about maximizing what I currently have. 

Grazie,
Salvatore

Offline scott123

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2011, 11:47:53 PM »
Salvatore, thanks for clearing that up.  I've always been a bit skeptical of gas oven broilers, but haven't dealt with a lot of pizzamakers who've worked with them.  Now that I've seen what your broiler can do, with the tight proximity you're working with, I think it's official that main compartment gas oven broilers are inferior to their electric brethren.

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2011, 02:09:55 AM »
At some point, you might want to see what dropping the hydration to 58% gives you. . . .

Although I do not know the totality of the circumstances surrounding your situation, I agree with dear Scott, that you may want to reduce the hydration to 58%, or even lower to 57%, if truly your procedure for dough production and fermentation were cogent. Your problem might be lack of adequate oven temperature, especially if you used Caputo Pizzeria flour. What were the temperatures of the stone and of the heat emitting from the above? For how long did you prime your oven? What flour did you use? Good night, dear Salvatore!
"Since I cannot move the gods above, I shall move the gods below!"
Vergilius Maro

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2011, 08:14:52 AM »
Omid,

I preheated the oven for 2hrs, then 10min before the bake switched to the broiler element.  It cycled once, then I was able to re-ignite it by opening the door.  The stone temperature was 560 deg, but I did not check the temperature above.  I will check the broiler temp this week.

You will note the stone temperature is much lower than the 700 deg it was registering when I had it sitting on the floor of the oven.  All for the better, however, since it was cooking the bottom so fast, the top could not keep up.  If I could somehow create a design where the stone could heat to 700, while decreasing the headspace above it, it may be the perfect home-oven.  Of course, this is why I am so fascinated by your design and the incredible temperatures you are receiving.  I don't think I need such high numbers, however, because my soapstone is so conductive.  Actually, to be honest, the bottom turned out great at 560 deg, although I prefered it when the stone was in the 600deg range.  Ultimately, the bottom isn't the issue, and it's a matter of getting more heat from the top. 

These are all done with 100% Caputo 00.  I'm now beginning to ponder the results if I began mixing in a portion of AP flour?  I am going to bake several pies this weekend for guests, so it might be the perfect opportunity to make a few doughs (100%00/75%00/50%00) and see the differences.  I could also lower the hydration, but don't want to introduce too many new variables.  Perhaps I will change the hydration first...

Grazie mille,
Salvatore

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2011, 08:26:56 AM »
Scott,

I think you are correct.  I recently moved from a home with an electric oven, and although I wasn't attempting this style of pizza, I found it to be more than satisfactory.  The broiler was actually quite powerful. 

I can dream of the day I build my first WFO!  Or... I can beg the owners of one to let me bring my dough and bake a few pies!

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2011, 12:37:47 AM »
Last Saturday I had my mom and niece in town, so I ended up making 6 pies on Saturday night.  That's the most I've done in one session so far.  I was fairly busy, therefore you'll have to excuse me for only having one picture!  I used the same formula, although this time I extended the bulk ferment to 24 hours, then after balling the dough let them proof for an additional 6 hours.  My natural starter was feeling "frisky," because I had quite a bit of lift in the dough.  It had a great feel, handled tremendously, and baked up with great flavor.  I found a few nuances in regards to my oven, and you can see I was starting to achieve just a bit of leapording on this pie (the 1st one), and by the last one had some nice results.  This is pie #1, Lomo Pork and roasted peppers, mozzarella di bufala. 

Unfortunately I won't be baking this weekend, but for good cause:  my wife, son and I are headed to France and Italy for 15 days.  I regret I won't make it to Sicilia (where my family is from), but we will visit friends in the north, and eat our way down to Napoli!  Exciting and interesting time to visit Italia, and we are seriously looking forward to our trip. 

Grazie tante,
Salvatore

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2011, 10:33:35 AM »
Well, after experiencing the pizza at Da Michele and Gino Sorbillo, I felt like giving up!  I was NOWHERE close to what they are doing.  But... Omid said something that inspired me to keep trying.  So, in an effort to achieve the best possible results with my un-modified home oven, I've done two things:

1. Raise the hydration from 60% to 62% in an effort to increase some dough tenderness
2. Decrease pre-heat time for my stone from 2 hours down to perhaps 1 hour

I applied these two changes the other night with good success.  First, the hydration change worked well, and I'm tempted to increase it even more for the next bake.  More importantly, decreasing the pre-heat time allowed for a softer dough and a more even top/bottom heat.  In fact, despite cutting the preheat time in half, I managed to bake each pie in 2:00 flat.  I'm also figuring out the "hot" spots for my broiler, and have finally started to get some nice color in the crust. 

Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures... truthfully because I didn't expect any results... but now I'll be ready for the next attempt. 

Grazie tante,
Salvatore

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2011, 01:40:38 AM »
Well, after experiencing the pizza at Da Michele and Gino Sorbillo, I felt like giving up!  I was NOWHERE close to what they are doing. 

Salvatore,
You are making some absolutely beautiful pies; much better than I ever did with my home oven. I would encourage you to evaluate your pies given your situation not the ideal situation (i.e. Da Michele). To me what you have created, given your resources, is far more impressive.

Best regards,

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2011, 01:37:44 PM »
Craig,

I am truly honored by your words.

For better or worse, I am a perfectionist.  I apply the same zeal and vigor to every aspect of my life.  If I do something, or purchase something, I want it to be the "best."  I am always looking for the perfect everything... whether it be an omelet, an espresso, a paring knife... or pizza.  I recently dragged my wife around Paris in search of the ultimate baguette, then came home and spent two weeks making baguette after baguette to improve upon my recipe.  Then it was biscotti.  Then immersion blenders.

Did I mention she thinks I'm insane? 

Fortunately, I recognize my condition, and I KNOW I'm insane.

Therefore, I can make pizza here in my home and be quite satisfied with the results. I actually think the pizza I am making is quite good, but after my experience in Napoli, now I know what's out there.  (I guess that's why in communist nations the government controls all media.)  Anyway, you are correct, and I will make sure to honestly evaluate my results based on all factors.  Have to keep trying to make it better, though... right?!?

Grazie per il complimento!  Buon Natale.

Salvatore

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2011, 05:09:09 PM »
Prego. Buon Natale.

You and I are a lot alike.

CL
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2012, 08:29:57 PM »
Okay, so I tried a couple of things tonight.  

First, I experimented with fermentation times.  
First batch: 24hrs bulk, then balled and proofed for 6hrs.  Second batch: 6hrs bulk, then balled and proofed for 24 hours.  

My goal was to see if either dough provided better crust color.  Essentially, they both performed identically.  If I had to give a slight advantage, guess I preferred the 6/24 dough.  It might have had slightly better flavor.  But, like I say, they were almost identical.

The second experiment was more drastic.  I had been cooking my pies under the broiler after a long pre-heat with my 1.25" soapstone.  My broiler, however, is weak, and I never was quite able to achieve the leapording or color I hoped for.  In addition, I believe I was sacrificing any hope at achieving the tenderness I came to appreciate after a recent trip to Napoli.  So, I moved the stone down the very bottom of the oven and constructed a make-shift roof out of a spare oven rack.  I covered it in foil and placed a small baking stone right in the center facing downward.  I had hoped the stone would absorb and reflect some heat back to the pie.  My ultimate goal was tenderness through higher heat.

Temperature of soapstone slab:
     60 min - 556deg
     75 min - 650deg
     90 min - 670deg

I decided to go ahead and bake, although originally I was tempted to let it go a full two hours.  From past experience, however, I knew the soapstone to be very conductive, and I thought 670 might be more than enough to achieve a 60-90sec bake.  

First pizza was a disaster!  A thin spot formed during shaping, but I went ahead with it anyway.  It ripped, and fortunately I was able to extract it before too much smoke.  The result, however, was a step in the right direction. (See 1st pic)

So, I shaped the next two balls, and proceeded.  Bake time was 75 seconds for the first, and 90 seconds for the second.  The results were mixed.  As you can see, the cornicione color is still very anemic.  To be honest, it looks pathetic!  I really need to reconsider how to get the top-color I'm searching for.  That was the negative.

The positives, however, far outweighed the negatives.  First, I can really appreciate the difference a short bake time/higher heat has on flavor.  The tomatoes just "popped," the cheese was perfect, and the crust was by far the most tender I've achieved.  Truthfully, everything up to this point pales in comparison.  The bottom of both pizzas had just the right amount of char, and provided a nice depth of flavor, as well.  In fact, the cornicione even had a nice texture, despite lacking any color, and had a nice "bite" to go along with great flavor.  And, of course, the interior had so much of the tenderness for which I've been searching.

So, in an honest evaluation, I'd like to think tonight showed some real progress.  I was starting to doubt I could obtain the tenderness I was seeking (and I admit there is still MUCH room for improvement), but Omid made a comment a while back that motivated me to keep pressing forward.  I think I achieved more in terms of texture and taste than I had previously thought possible.  Of course, there's that darn color!!  As a bread baker, I know the importance of color.  It is essential to the finished product.  No one wants to eat a pale, insipid looking piece of bread or pizza.  So... please... I'm all ears!  Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions are welcome.  

Oh, and before anyone says it, I apologize if I didn't put forth a whole lot of effort in "dressing" up these pizzas.  I was truly focusing on the other details!!

Grazie mille,
Salvatore
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 09:17:25 PM by salvatoregianpaolo »

Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2012, 08:33:12 PM »
Some more:

Offline bakeshack

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2012, 09:20:10 PM »
Salvatore,

This is how I used to do it with my electric home oven until I finally completed by WFO:

1)  Using a 1/2 inch baking stone placed about 6 inches from the broiler, i preheat the oven to max until it stops running (which means the probe is reading a 550F temp inside although not accurate).  At this point the stone will be around 500F more or less.
2)  I place a frozen wet paper hand towel covered with 2 layers of foil on the probe for about 15-20 mins.  I will run the broiler on max.  This will bring up the stone temp to about 700F.  The probe temp goes down to about 200F or less.  I would sometimes open the door once or twice if I feel the oven is getting way too hot. 
3)  Once the stone reaches 700F, I would start making pizza.  Before loading pizza, I make sure broiler is still running (if not, I will replace the frozen contraption with a new one)
4)  Load pizza on the stone, leave it alone for about 45-60 secs, turn 180 deg, depending on how the cornicione looks like.  I will usually pull it out right around 2 mins total bake time. 

I got the best results using this method although I am not sure if your broiler may be as strong to give you the blistering on the cornicione but it should certainly give you more color.  I am sure there are so many ways of doing this but this is what worked for me at that time.  You might get some ideas to help your setup.

Good luck. 

Marlon



Offline salvatoregianpaolo

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2012, 09:27:18 PM »
Marlon,

Thanks for the tip.  Unfortunately, I have been trying to bake under the broiler for quite a while now and never achieved the top-color I was after.  In order to get any leapording, it required baking the pizza for such a duration as to over-cook the bottom (in relation to pizza Napolitana vera).  My bake times were consistently well under 3min, usually in the 2 - 2.5min range, and still that was long enough to overdo the bottom.  Guess my broiler is just awful.  

So, I went the route I did because I decided to forgo the color aspect to achieve the correct tenderness.  Now, I'm hoping to keep the newly discovered texture and add some leapording.  I feel I need to work on getting more reflective top heat.  Perhaps some bricks...

Grazie tante,
Salvatore
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 10:14:58 PM by salvatoregianpaolo »

Offline johnamus

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Re: So much to learn...
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2012, 09:33:23 PM »
Marlon,

Can you share the recipe and kneading/fermentation techniques you used to make those pies?  :)

-John


 



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