Dewey's Pizza - Perfection (replication?)

[c0mpl3x]

i would try adjusting your hydration in the recipe i posted, to around 64% if it seems that wet.  feels overproofed when handling, but still proofed and tight?  i would say standard bread flour (from a bread and bakery flour, not a store flour) such as king arthur, sams club, con agra, etc

stretch and fold periods of 60-90 minutes between stretch, getting close to maxing the s/f each time you do it.   let it rest longer as you stretch, starting at like 30-45 and working towards 60-90 possibly 75-105 min at the end, letting it bench rest.   when you do your last s/f, move it to the fridge

[FJPhil]

Im gonna make my 1st attempt at this dough using your stretch and fold technique tonight...I plan on storing the dough in the fridge for 2 days and using it on Wednesday. I will report back with results....
Here is the first formulation I will be trying:

Flour (King Arthur Bread Flour) (100%): Water (64%): IDY (.4%): Salt (2.75%): Canola Oil (5%): Sugar (4.5%): Total (176.65%): Single Ball:

447.21 g  |  15.77 oz | 0.99 lbs 286.22 g  |  10.1 oz | 0.63 lbs 1.79 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp 12.3 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.56 tsp | 0.85 tbsp 22.36 g | 0.79 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.92 tsp | 1.64 tbsp 20.12 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.05 tsp | 1.68 tbsp 790 g | 27.87 oz | 1.74 lbs | TF = N/A 395 g | 13.93 oz | 0.87 lbs

[FJPhil]

As of now, that 1st formulation I tried in my last post is looking like a bust.  After a 2 day cold fermentation, my first dough ball did not turn out too good.  I let the dough ball rest at room temp for about 30 mins before trying to form the skin....that's when I realized things weren't going to work out too well. 

The dough was far too sticky....even with the use of a liberal amount of semolina. Also the dough was far too elastic...it was shrinking back on itself the entire time I tried to shape it. 

I didnt bother taking pictures because it wasn't anything worth taking pictures of.  I'm not sure what the issue is....but I have one more dough ball left from the formulation that is going to sit in the fridge until Saturday (making a 5 day cold fermentation).  If experience teaches me anything, this dough will probably work out much better than the one I tried tonight. 

[FJPhil]

Just to follow up on that 1st attempt recipe I posted a couple posts ago....It can now be declared a complete bust.
I originally made 2 dough balls, with the first one detailed in my last post. 

The second dough ball, I made this weekend after a 6 day cold fermentation in my 37 degree fridge.  I took the dough ball out and let come to room temperature. I then tried to form a skin...once again, this dough does not a pretty skin make.  It is entirely way too sticky,elastic, and weak...just a moderate stretch caused it to rip.  Also, any attempt to stretch the dough on the counter caused the dough to immediately shrink back upon itself. 

But the dough itself wasn't a complete waste...since it was completely impossible to make a pizza out of, I simply made some haphazard shape out of it, tossed in a pan with some oil and it wound up making some rather tasty bread. 

So all in all my first experiment was quite futile.  The only way it resembled the actual Dewey's dough I got my hands on was in weight. Other than that, it didn't really resemble it at all.  I think in my next attempt, I may change hydration to 60%, change oil to 2.5% and opt for my typical kneading process instead of the stretch and fold technique. 

[c0mpl3x]

what flour are you using?

[FJPhil]

what flour are you using?

I used King Arthur Bread Flour for this particular recipe.

[FJPhil]

So, I sent an email to Dewey's today, asking them for any hints they would be willing to divulge as to the secret of their crust.  Within 2 hours, I received a reply.  The guy that responded from Deweys told me this and only this :

"The one thing that I can let you know that will make a difference in the dough is that we make it with a very cold recipe and let it rise in refrigeration for 2 days prior to using it.  this allows the gluten to develop more slowly, thus making it more elastic. "

It makes it sound like that it may mean the dough is made using cold water and high yeast content perhaps? I'm still very much a pizza making new guy....so any insight on to this recent development would be great. 
 

[CDNpielover]

Just wanted to throw in another request for a Dewey's clone.....it's my favorite pizza shop in the area.

I've tried a couple of the recipe's on here, including the one in this thread...but they aren't quite right.  Dewey's crust almost has a 'pastry' quality to it....it's crisp on the outside, very airy and delicate on the inside...almost Croissant like, with a touch of sweetness.  It is not 'bready' at all ..which unfortunately for me, any recipe that I've tried that uses Bread flour always winds up with a fairly dense, bread like crust.

Try Pete-zza's Papa John's clone.  it seems to me to be the closest thing to what you're describing above - at least from the recipes i've used on this forum.  (but i am a novice so this could be completely wrong haha)

[FJPhil]

I tried yet another attempt this week,...and it came somewhat close.  Since I have been using Pete-zza's Emergency Papa Johns recipe with success as my "hand tossed" go-to, I modified it a bit.

Here was the formulation I tried this time:

Flour (100%): Water (58%): IDY (.65%): Salt (1.5%): Canola Oil (6.5%): Honey (5.5%): Total (172.15%):

229.45 g  |  8.09 oz | 0.51 lbs 133.08 g  |  4.69 oz | 0.29 lbs 1.49 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp 3.44 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.72 tsp | 0.24 tbsp 14.91 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.28 tsp | 1.09 tbsp 12.62 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 1.8 tsp | 0.6 tbsp 395 g | 13.93 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = N/A

After receiving the email from Dewey's COO, regarding how their whole process is "cold", this was the method I used:

1. Instead of using warm tap water for my dough, I used the coldest water I could pull from my tap. I'm not sure of the temperature,
but it was definitely cold to the touch. Its winter in Cleveland, and the cold water is much colder in the winter.

2. I mixed the dough in my KA mixer with my C style dough hook for about 4 minutes, which is about 2 minutes less than I typically would mix. When I removed the dough from the mixer, it was still cool to the touch.

3. I immediately took the dough, sprayed it with some cooking spray, and tossed it in a freezer bag. The bag was then placed in my 37 degree fridge to ferment.

After 48 hours of fermentation, I made the pizza.  The dough was a pleasure to work with, fairly similar to the dough I bought from Deweys.  The only significant difference I could immediately recognize was this dough did not immediately form bubbles while shaping the skin.  From a hydration standpoint, the doughs felt very similar in wetness. 

The pizza was placed on a 12" screen and placed on the bottom rack of my gas oven and baked at 500 degrees for 10 minutes. At 10 minutes, the crust was perfectly browned.

The finished product was probably one of my best doughs to date.  Very airy crumb, large bubbles...just like Deweys.  As I said, this dough is somewhat close...however still lacks some texture notes.  Dewey's crust has a different kind of crispness to it, and the interior is a little more soft and airy. 

I really should have taken pictures, and I promise I will take pictures on my next attempt....I'm just not sure where to go for my next attempt.  The sweetness of this recipe seemed almost spot on..however I could probably up it to 6%.  I also may consider changing the oil in my dough from Canola oil to Vegetable Oil.  Also, since the COO's email put a lot of emphasis on their COLD process, I may try using iced water instead of just cold tap water. I am just worried that too cold of water will cause my dough not to rise properly over the course of 48 hours. 

[CDNpielover]

thanks for the update!  I am curious though about the use of cold water, and whether that is really necessary.  Warm water is required to activate ADY, but other than that temperature only plays a role in limiting the yeast metabolism.  As I understand it, the use of cold water would only work to slow the yeast metabolism (and progress of your dough proofing), but only as long as your dough is cold - perhaps 2 hours max if you are rising at room temperature.

With a 48 hour proof, i'm not convinced that the cold water would make any difference at all...  Or does the cold water do something else that I'm missing?   

[FJPhil]

My latest update....I changed my recipe I tried in my last post to 60% hydration and 7% honey. I also used iced water in the recipe.  Everything else, maintained the same. 

I have to say..the workability/extensibility of the dough seemed very similar to that of Dewey's actual dough.  In fact, it is the first dough i have made the instantly formed air bubbles while forming the skin (just like Dewey's). 

Unfortunately, the taste and texture were still off...I'm missing something and not sure what.  I will send another email to Dewey's COO and see if I can't find out any more information. 

Here are some pictures of my latest attempt:

[FJPhil]

So I just purchased another dough ball from Deweys yesterday, and intend to make a pizza with it tonight.  Is there any methods I could use to "test" the hydration level of their dough? Since I actually have their dough in hand, I feel like there should be something I can do with it (besides weight it), that would provide me more insight as to how to go about reverse engineering it.

[CDNpielover]

You can calculate the water content by measuring the fresh mass and the dry mass (oven-dried at about 100 degrees celcius until you reach a constant mass - this will probably take 24-48 hours but i've never actually done it on dough.  You can use a higher temperature to reduce the time, however then you run the risk of your dry mass being altered by e.g. thermal decomposition of your dough.)

[FJPhil]

You can calculate the water content by measuring the fresh mass and the dry mass (oven-dried at about 100 degrees celcius until you reach a constant mass - this will probably take 24-48 hours but i've never actually done it on dough.  You can use a higher temperature to reduce the time, however then you run the risk of your dry mass being altered by e.g. thermal decomposition of your dough.)

The whole idea of leaving my oven on for 24-48 hours isnt really viable.. I can, however, crank my toaster oven to 500..and toss a chunk of the dough in there for a while...I just have no idea, how long it would take?? And I would have to imagine at some point it was just turn into a black smelly nugget. 

[CDNpielover]

Pete-zza and Norma discussed this method in the Mellow Mushroom thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.0.html.  I'm not sure which page it's on, but probably around p. 50 or 60.  I don't know what temperatures or times they used.

The process is a lot like making beef jerky in your oven (low temps for long period of time to dehydrate your sample).  I wouldn't want to use a toaster oven for that, though, that seems like a much greater fire risk than a home oven.  

EDIT:  500 is much too high of a temperature.  Those temperatures cause thermal breakdown of the sample (this is what causes e.g. "charring"), which you want to avoid if you're trying to get an accurate dry mass.  It's best to work around 100 C.

[FJPhil]

Pete-zza and Norma discussed this method in the Mellow Mushroom thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.0.html.  I'm not sure which page it's on, but probably around p. 50 or 60.  I don't know what temperatures or times they used.

The process is a lot like making beef jerky in your oven (low temps for long period of time to dehydrate your sample).  I wouldn't want to use a toaster oven for that, though, that seems like a much greater fire risk than a home oven.   

EDIT:  500 is much too high of a temperature.  Those temperatures cause thermal breakdown of the sample (this is what causes e.g. "charring"), which you want to avoid if you're trying to get an accurate dry mass.  It's best to work around 100 C.

I found the post you were referring to at : http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164194.html#msg164194 

Unfortunately, Im not sure I feel comfortable leaving any oven on (toaster oven or otherwise) for a minimum 12 hours.... I'm never home that long, or I'm sleeping. And we all know that leaving any sort of oven unsupervised for hours at a time is a pretty bad idea.

[CDNpielover]

I have drying ovens and analytical balances here, I can do the testing if you want to send some samples to Canada.   

[FJPhil]

I have drying ovens and analytical balances here, I can do the testing if you want to send some samples to Canada.   

I have really easy access to the dough..so I wouldnt have any issues sending you some.  I just have never sent any food product in the mail before...and I'm not entirely sure how that works internationally.  Have you had people send you dough from the US before? How painful is the process?

[CDNpielover]

I haven't received any dough in the mail, and I'll have to look into the regulations for that kind of thing.  Another thing to consider is the potential wait times at customs.

[norma427]

FJPhil,

If you are interested this is where I started the hydration test with part of the MM dough ball at Reply 1038 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168113.html#msg168113 and the next few posts.  I can’t help you with the hydration calculation numbers, but can tell you what I did.  It didn’t take 12 hrs. for the hydration test.  Peter helped me though the process.

Norma