New Pies with Full Strength Flour

[PizzaSean]

Hi all,

I've been trying to get pics from the pies of baked (at the mercy of others who took them) and so far only one lone picture has come my way.  

Some background on the stuff going on here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15856.0.html

This particular pie was made with Grande Cheese, Full Strength Flour (see below for details), Hormel Rosa Grande Pepperoni, some Cento Black Olives, and some thinly sliced crimini mushrooms.  The sauce was Stanislaus Full Red, diluted with water to an unknown ratio - I just eyeballed it because it was my first time using Full Red and I had no idea what to expect.  Seasoned the sauce with a very tiny amount of garlic and a less tiny amount, but still modest amount of oregano.

Flour (100%): Water (61%): IDY (.35%): Salt (2%): Oil (2%): Total (165.35%):

305.41 g  |  10.77 oz | 0.67 lbs 186.3 g  |  6.57 oz | 0.41 lbs 1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp 6.11 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp 6.11 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 504.99 g | 17.81 oz | 1.11 lbs | TF = 0.07

Dough was kneaded til gluten development started, but not close to windowpane and then balled, refrigerated for 2 days, and pulled out 1 hour-ish before bake.

Soapstone preheated in 550F + broiler resulting in stone temp of 600-630F.

All bakes done at 4 min.

[scott123]

That's looking really good, Sean.  Are you still striving for something Joe-ish?  If you are, you're definitely in the right ballpark. If you want something a little more Joe-ish, then I might try 3% oil. I also might, at some point, add a little sugar, but I'd try the additional oil first and see how you like it.

Did you get to taste a slice of the pepperoni side?  This had to have gone over well, correct? You have to be enjoying the Grande, right?  Are you getting that buttery pizzeria smell in your kitchen from it? What's the consensus among the friends? Coal-ish darker bakes vs. Joe-ish ones? Grande vs. fior di latte?

There's going to be different camps on this, but I feel that mushrooms should be pre-cooked to release some of their water prior to putting them on a pizza. If you are going to work with raw mushrooms, then I suggest putting them on their own pie, as the water from the criminis appears to have prolonged the bubbling point for the Grande, as compared to the bubbled quicker pepperoni side. Barely bubbled Grande isn't doing it justice.

But that's just little stuff. I would devour one of those pepperoni slices.

[PizzaSean]

Surprise bake tonight!

[PizzaSean]

A few more...

[PizzaSean]

The above 2 posts were a spur of the moment bake tonight.

I did my first ever emergency dough since I had leftover grande and I figured it deserved one more shot before I put the rest in the freezer (just under 2 lbs left now). 

Flour (100%): Water (64%): IDY (.6%): Salt (2%): Oil (2%): Sugar (2%): Total (170.6%): Single Ball:

676.6 g  |  23.87 oz | 1.49 lbs 433.02 g  |  15.27 oz | 0.95 lbs 4.06 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 13.53 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.42 tsp | 0.81 tbsp 13.53 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.01 tsp | 1 tbsp 13.53 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.39 tsp | 1.13 tbsp 1154.27 g | 40.72 oz | 2.54 lbs | TF = 0.08 577.14 g | 20.36 oz | 1.27 lbs

Same process as in original post, but I kneaded this a bit longer and then put it in the oven to rise.  After 2 hours, the size was getting there and after 3 hours it was just the same volume as when my 2-day cold ferment doughs have come out of the fridge and spent an hour in the room. 

Went a bit heavier on the cheese in these bakes - about 12-13 oz per pie.  They were both on the slightly droopy side, but overall I enjoyed the pies.  Can't say the dough was anywhere as good flavorwise as the 2-day dough... it was way better than I expected, but on the flavorless side of dough. 

Good to know I can get pizza together in a pinch if need be though!

[scott123]

So what's the decision on the Grande, Sean? I'm looking at those pies and doing cartwheels.  I know that you're a coal guy, but these pizzas and that cheese has to give you some joy, right?

[PizzaSean]

That's looking really good, Sean.  Are you still striving for something Joe-ish?  If you are, you're definitely in the right ballpark. If you want something a little more Joe-ish, then I might try 3% oil. I also might, at some point, add a little sugar, but I'd try the additional oil first and see how you like it.

Did you get to taste a slice of the pepperoni side?  This had to have gone over well, correct? You have to be enjoying the Grande, right?  Are you getting that buttery pizzeria smell in your kitchen from it? What's the consensus among the friends? Coal-ish darker bakes vs. Joe-ish ones? Grande vs. fior di latte?

There's going to be different camps on this, but I feel that mushrooms should be pre-cooked to release some of their water prior to putting them on a pizza. If you are going to work with raw mushrooms, then I suggest putting them on their own pie, as the water from the criminis appears to have prolonged the bubbling point for the Grande, as compared to the bubbled quicker pepperoni side. Barely bubbled Grande isn't doing it justice.

But that's just little stuff. I would devour one of those pepperoni slices.

Scott -

Not dead set on cloning Joe's, but certainly I do enjoy that slice and it does help to have something to guide my efforts, so I may base some of my experimentations off of their pies/your suggestions.  I'm curious as to why you suggest the increase to 3% oil and what that will yield.  

The grande was fabulous and I did get some of those pepperoni slices which came out nicely.  People in general really enjoyed this style quite a bit, some were saying these were the best pies yet.  Something about a very familiar style seemed to go over well and was impressive to my friends.  I was pleased and impressed to see some familiar sights on my own pies:  nice orange grease, the bubbled cheese/sauce look, some of the interactions between the bubbles in the edge of the crust and the edge of the sauce, etc.

The pies I just posted featured mushrooms that I put in the microwave (on high for a minute because I forgot they were in there) and then put onto paper towels (which I changed about 3 times and they were still releasing water.  I only went for the microwave because i remember reading a post where someone said they did that.  Any suggestions?  My instinct would have been to just grab a pan and heat em up on the stove, push em around for a few minutes til they released some water and drain, put them on towels to dry some more.  

For grande vs. fresh mozz, I feel about the same way I do with my pies as I do when I eat out - they each have their own place and my mood will determine which I like better.  I'll say this definitively though, I feel as though I've become quite happy with the sauce flavor for my fresh mozz being very simply a ground tomato with salt (6 in 1 or tomato magic were both great - I've enjoyed the flavor of some beaten up whole peeled tomatoes too though) and some pecorino romano dusted over the pie.  My sauce choice of Full Red for the Joe's-ish pie is a good start, but I want to be a bit more aggressive with the seasoning next time.  Tonight I was more so than 3 nights ago and it was an improvement, but I'd like to push it some more.  

So far those are the findings... thanks for the feedback and the help!

Sean

[PizzaSean]

So what's the decision on the Grande, Sean? I'm looking at those pies and doing cartwheels.  I know that you're a coal guy, but these pizzas and that cheese has to give you some joy, right?

Haha - cartwheels! 

Well, I would say I'm a pizza guy rather than a coal guy, though I do love some good coal pizza.  Tried Totonno's this summer and enjoyed that quite a bit.  Unrelated, but also tried Di Fara this summer and did not particularly enjoy it... the best part was the copious hunks of fresh basil, imo - I felt very validated when I happened across some posts where you mentioned not being impressed with that pizza.  Or at least the crust was mentioned there.

Anyway, I love what I'm seeing and I'd say the taste is almost as good as the look!  There is still something I'm not quite getting out of it.  I bumped up the TF to .08 on tonights pies and might mess with going even a bit higher on a batch just to try it out.  I love thin pies, but something's telling me to try that, so I will.  And as far as the sauce goes, I just mentioned wanting to pursue a bit more seasoning there. 

Thanks for the kind words!

[scott123]

Sean, I know you're in Northern NJ, but I'm hoping that you don't live too close to me, because, should you ever open a place and sell slices like the one in that picture with THAT undercrust... you might end up being competition   With that in mind, did I say Grande was great?  Grande sucks.  Fior di latte rules. Yeah fresh mozzarella!  

Seriously, though, I don't use mushrooms much, but when I do, I saute them in oil until they give off most of their water, being careful not to crowd the pan.

I could see how someone going the fresh mozzarella route would want more of a pure tomato-ey taste for their sauce, but, when you get into the slice realm, you've got to kick it up a notch. Not a big notch- nothing that will overshadow the tomatoes, but, at the same time, a less pure tomato taste. Unless you're using San Marzano tomatoes, some sugar is critical, imo. Oregano is also essential.  Fresh basil (very finely chopped) also, imo, makes the difference between a good sauce and a great one.

As far as the TF goes... if you go above .085", Christian Bale put it best when he said "you and I are done, professionally"    I could see how someone in the midwest might lean towards making pizzas shaped like footballs, but a New Jerseyan?  Have some self respect  

[PizzaSean]

Hahahaha - well, I assure you that my NJ pride runs as deep as you can expect from someone from this fine state! 

I was actually thinking about doing a little chopped up fresh basil in the sauce tonight, but it slipped my mind by the time I was doing the deed.  There was a place up in West Paterson (I won't bother with their name changing ways) I ate a couple slices at a year ago...they weren't mind blowing, but quite nice and the most striking thing was the occasional fresh basil leaf in the sauce (very small whole leaves).  I liked that quite a bit and was looking to bring that in. 

Tonight's pies had more oregano than the ones 3 nights ago and a little dash of garlic powder.  Also one of the pies I added dried basil, but that doesn't do a whole lot for me when I have my basil plant sitting in the house. 

Haha... I think if I were ever to open up a place you'd be getting royalty checks or something like that!  Your suggestions/posts have influenced every pie I've made since coming on here, so maybe that's why you like what you're seeing 

I think one of the craziest things I realized tonight was that I made two pies for something in the realm of $8 worth of ingredients and it was not too much more involved than cooking some other meals.  Certainly not going to stop me from buying pizza out, but knowing that I can make a pie for the price of a couple of slices is something I'll keep in mind. 


One more thought on sauce:  when I made the pies tonight, I approached the seasoning a bit differently and it seemed to be easier for me to judge my balance. 

1)  Full red + water --- stir --- get the consistency I want
2)  Add garlic powder to sauce in bowl --- stir
3)  Put sauce on pie
4)  Add oregano on top of sauce
5)  Cheese, etc

This differed from 3 nights ago when I added garlic/oregano to the sauce in the bowl.  I find that it's easier to get a more subtle amount when going into the high volume sauce source and then easier to accent the flavor when it's already spread out.  I realize that it's more time consuming if I were ever doing this in some sort of commercial setting, that is less practical than just mixing it into the sauce, but it got me wondering.  Some slices I eat seem to have the oregano mixed into the cheese almost... do you think those places might go dough, sauce, cheese, oregano, oven?

Never really considered those angles on something like sauce making.  Always just thought of it in a simplified way, but thought of that when I looked at these pies...

[chickenparm]

Sean,
Those pies came out looking great!
 

Im sort of in the same boat as you are with the sauce making.I have not found that sweet spot yet.

One thing I have done a few times is add the oregano and sometimes garlic powder after the pie comes out of the oven.
I just sprinkle a little of both around the top of the pie and eat.Nothing heavy,just enough to dust it over.It works very well for me.

Im still going back and forth if I want to use it in the sauce,or on the sauce,or after it comes out of the oven.
 

[PizzaSean]

Chickenparm -

Yeah that's an option I haven't considered... In the past I've sprinkled oregano on after bakes, but I had kind of forgotten about that.  it's such a great aroma!  Maybe that's part of the equation.

Sean

[Pete-zza]

Sean,

It is my recollection that Monical's, a Midwestern pizza operator that specializes in thin crust pizza, puts the seasonings on the pizza last.

Peter

[PizzaSean]

Hmm, very interesting....

So maybe, I could mix up a balanced blend of seasoning and then put it in a shaker and finish it off that way...

Sean

[JConk007]

NICE SLICE , enjoying the thread and experiments!
Northern Jersey where ? me too !
John

[PizzaSean]

These days in Harrison. You?

Edit:  and thank you!

[PizzaSean]

A few pics from last night!  

Same exact formula as last time, because it was a spur of the moment decision to make pizza last night.  Only difference is that I probably had a full 4 hours of rising time before I baked.  Still super impressed with these same day doughs when I'm in a pinch...

By special request, I made my first foray into:

[PizzaSean]

A few more...

[PizzaSean]

Sorry for the photographic sloppiness... if I want to get the pics ever so I can post them, I gotta take them myself with the phone, which usually means hasty, blurry, dark images that are shot poorly.  One of these times I'll get someone to cooperate with me and either use my phone or help me get things properly documented. 

Anyway, a couple of notes:

+ I loved the same day dough - not saying it's better than the 2-day I first learned, but I'm very thrilled to once again find that it's totally a doable thing to spontaneously decide to make pizza on a given night and have it come out just fine.

+ I loved the frozen Grande! - it's been almost exactly 2 months since I put it in the freezer and while it may have lost a little something, the cheese is so good that it's hardly noticeable (at least to someone new to the cheese who doesn't work with it regularly)

+ I sauteed my mushrooms for the first time... when I took them out of the pain, straining them was quite an issue, so after running through a handful of paper towels, I decided to put them on an aluminum foil sheet and toss em in the toaster oven on the lowest setting (275 F) for what ended up being probably a half hour before I needed them.  The result was actually what I was looking for - they were not dried out, but they had lost their serious WETness.

+ I made bacon pizza for the first time... I've never even EATEN bacon pizza, so making this was even more of an experiment to me.  The bacon itself was a nicely made bacon by Applegate Farms with fewer added death-causing agents and such, but was a thick-cut, which we (the tasters) all felt was a bit detrimental.  Next time I'll undercook it a bit and go for the thin cut.  I'm also open to the idea of making more small pieces to distribute around the pie.

+ I used grated cheese for the first time!  This was inspired by NY Pizza Suprema whose pizza I just tried for the first time a few days ago - 8th ave by 31st near Penn Station for NY oriented folks who haven't gotten around to it yet.  Great, great slice.
Now, I've never been one to put grated cheese on anything for the most part, but have always used it for my more Coal-ish pies when I have it on hand.  I don't really ever reach for it particularly much in my own cooking and my feeling towards it ranges from "tolerating" to "liking" in other foods depending on the application.  Or so I thought!
After visiting NY Pizza Suprema where they generously dust a paremsan or romano or something (anyone know?) over the sauce before adding the mozz, I realized that an old familiar flavor of certain pizzerias that I do quite enjoy is our good friend grated cheese!  So I had to try it on my own, and while I'm not sure that pecorino romano is #1 for this application, it was certainly close enough to let me know that I really like it as an undertone to the grande.

+ I used sugar in the sauce for the first time.  While I'm not someone who avoids added sugars by any means, I certainly do try to avoid them where I can, so I mostly think of holding them back and not having a lot of sugary foods as my way of cutting them out.  So, naturally, I never added any to my tomatoes before.  This time I tried it, just a little, enough so that I could taste it when I had the sauce straight (maybe not enough to affect the pizza though), and I have to say that I couldn't really tell the difference yet.  Jury is still out.

- the frozen Grande was frosty and required a bit of extra layer, putting it out on paper towels and trying to deal with the frost.  This ended up amounting to about 10 minutes of simple efforts and I'm okay with that since it means being able to buy a block of grande whenever I want and just using what I can of it.  I'd imagine if I had a means of vacuuming the bag shut when freezing it, I'd eliminate this problem.



I'm trying to think if there are any other notes from last night's pies that I can share for anyone who may be interested at some point.  These were both 4-5 minute bakes, the bacon closer to 5 especially so it could get a little more color on the cheese and edges (never really came through on the edges). 
Alright, well that's it for now.

Sean

[chickenparm]

Sean,those are perfect NY slices.Everything about them is says it looks like they came out of a Great Pizza shop.Nice work!!