Author Topic: Finally, the perfect dough..but..  (Read 2972 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1179
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« on: October 28, 2011, 12:47:17 PM »
Yes i know what your thinking. How could it be perfect with a "but".

Well... I finally have an ingredient ratio, and method for forming a dough ball that i can stretch without springing back, or tearing.
The problem is now im ending up with too much dough around the rim. The reason why is because im now getting a perfectly even stretch.
And before i used to get some thick spots which used up more dough so there was less around the rim. I need to reduce my recipe now, and i
need help.
The recipe is for a 16" pie and the final weight is rougly 21 ounces.
KABF = 358g
VWG = 10g
Water = 225g
IDY = 1 tsp
salt = 1 tsp
honey = 1 Tbsp

Half the flour,half the vital wheat gluten, half the yeast, and all the water is added first, mixed, and allowed to ferment for 3 hours at 100F in a proofing box. Then added into the mixer along with the rest of the ingredients. They are then mixed with a dough hook on low for roughly one minute, stopped, and alowed to autolyse for 5 minutes. Then kneaded with dough hook for 5 minutes on medium.Now formed into a dough ball and allowed to rise for 2 hours in 100F proofing box. From there stretched into a skin, topped, and cooked.

So now that you read the recipe, I would like some input on what to reduce, how much to reduce, and where to reduce to achieve a 16" pie with a thin NY style center with a medium size rim.

Thank you in advance.


Offline Mmmph

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 850
  • Location: ILM NC
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 01:18:10 PM »
Knock it down 20%

Flour (100%):    306.09 g  |  10.8 oz | 0.67 lbs (Incl VWG)
Water (62%):    189.78 g  |  6.69 oz | 0.42 lbs
IDY (.80%):    2.45 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):    4.59 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Honey (3.3%):    10.1 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.24 tsp | 0.75 tbsp
Total (167.6%):   513.01 g | 18.1 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = 0.09
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 969
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 02:13:55 PM »
If you can give me your weights for the honey, salt, and yeast I can put your dough into a formula that you can manipulate t give you any weight of dough you desire.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1179
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 02:40:56 PM »
If you can give me your weights for the honey, salt, and yeast I can put your dough into a formula that you can manipulate t give you any weight of dough you desire.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

honey = 23g
salt = 6g
IDY = 3g

Offline chickenparm

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Kentucky-Making New York Style Pies
  • Oh No,Not Pizza Again!!!
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2011, 11:56:58 PM »
Here is a older 16 inch KABF recipe I used,that easily stretched to 17 or 18 inches to achieve a medium sized rim,with a thin NY style center.I used a thickness factor of .10 for the recipe,because I was not very good at stretching the dough to larger sizes at the time.

Even though I made a dough for a 16 inch size,I ended up with a dough that was easy to stretch larger and made a bigger pie in the end.This recipe alone would make a very large rim if I had not stretched out further.Its also smaller than yours and I can make thin,18 inch NY style pies with this recipe as well.


16 inch,KABF,60 % hydro

Flour (100%):    342.55 g  |  12.08 oz | 0.76 lbs
Water (60%):    205.53 g  |  7.25 oz | 0.45 lbs
IDY (0.4%):    1.37 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (2.0%):    6.85 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
Oil (2.0%):    6.85 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.52 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Sugar (2.0%):    6.85 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.72 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Total (166.4%):   570.01 g | 20.11 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.1

KABF does not need any wheat gluten added.I never had to use it for NY style pies using KABF.The protein count with KABF is high enough to make a NY style pie just fine.


-Bill

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 969
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2011, 09:25:33 AM »
F.C.;
With reference to replies #1-3, the dough formula looks like this:
Flour: 358g.   100%
VWG: 10g.        2.79%
Water: 225g.   62.85%
IDY: 3g.            0.84%
Salt: 6g.            1.67%
Honey: 23g.        6.42%

Total%          174.57%

All you need to do now is to decide how much dough you want to make and divide that amount by the total formula % divided by 100. Here's an example: Lets say you want to make 28-ounces of dough. Divide 28 by 1.7457 and you get 16.03911-ounces (call it 16-ounces) of flour needed. Doing it in grams: Lets say you want to have a total of 1000g. of dough. Divide 1000 by 1.7457 and you get 572.83611-grams (call it 573-grams) of flour needed.
Once you have the flour weight, the rest is easy, using your calculator, just enter the flour weight, then press "X" enter the ingredient percent and press the "%" key and read the ingredient weight in the display window. The ingredient weight will be in the same weight units that you showed the flour weight in.
Example:573-grams of flour.
573 X 2.79 (press the "%" key) and read 15.9867 (call it 16-grams) of VWG needed.
Repeat this for each ingredient and you will have your ingredient amounts for your new dough weight.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1179
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2011, 10:42:17 AM »
Here is a older 16 inch KABF recipe I used,that easily stretched to 17 or 18 inches to achieve a medium sized rim,with a thin NY style center.I used a thickness factor of .10 for the recipe,because I was not very good at stretching the dough to larger sizes at the time.

Even though I made a dough for a 16 inch size,I ended up with a dough that was easy to stretch larger and made a bigger pie in the end.This recipe alone would make a very large rim if I had not stretched out further.Its also smaller than yours and I can make thin,18 inch NY style pies with this recipe as well.


16 inch,KABF,60 % hydro

Flour (100%):    342.55 g  |  12.08 oz | 0.76 lbs
Water (60%):    205.53 g  |  7.25 oz | 0.45 lbs
IDY (0.4%):    1.37 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (2.0%):    6.85 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
Oil (2.0%):    6.85 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.52 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Sugar (2.0%):    6.85 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.72 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Total (166.4%):   570.01 g | 20.11 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.1

KABF does not need any wheat gluten added.I never had to use it for NY style pies using KABF.The protein count with KABF is high enough to make a NY style pie just fine.




Thanks for the recipe chickenparm. Its pretty close to the recipe im using, so should be easy to adjust mine to get your size dough ball.
Also, I do agree that VWG isnt really needed when using KABF, but I get a way better elasticity when using it. I think because my recipe is on the wet side, that extra protein and the autolyse period really helps give the dough more stretching ability. But as far as taste, and texture, yes it really doesnt make much difference.

F.C.;
With reference to replies #1-3, the dough formula looks like this:
Flour: 358g.   100%
VWG: 10g.        2.79%
Water: 225g.   62.85%
IDY: 3g.            0.84%
Salt: 6g.            1.67%
Honey: 23g.        6.42%

Total%          174.57%

All you need to do now is to decide how much dough you want to make and divide that amount by the total formula % divided by 100. Here's an example: Lets say you want to make 28-ounces of dough. Divide 28 by 1.7457 and you get 16.03911-ounces (call it 16-ounces) of flour needed. Doing it in grams: Lets say you want to have a total of 1000g. of dough. Divide 1000 by 1.7457 and you get 572.83611-grams (call it 573-grams) of flour needed.
Once you have the flour weight, the rest is easy, using your calculator, just enter the flour weight, then press "X" enter the ingredient percent and press the "%" key and read the ingredient weight in the display window. The ingredient weight will be in the same weight units that you showed the flour weight in.
Example:573-grams of flour.
573 X 2.79 (press the "%" key) and read 15.9867 (call it 16-grams) of VWG needed.
Repeat this for each ingredient and you will have your ingredient amounts for your new dough weight.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Thanks for the formula Tom. Im not very good at math but i will give it a try next time i make some dough. Over the weekend i made a batch of dough and used my same recipe (21 oz dough ball) and just removed 3 oz of dough after it was kneaded. When i stretched it out before cooking, it looked about the size i was looking for around the rim, but i didnt get a good rise while baking. But i ran out of KABF and had to use KAAP instead. I also had to up the VWG to make up for the lower protein percent. So that was probably why i didnt get the puffy rim i was looking for.

Ya know now that im thinking about it, Another reason i may not be getting the right size rim im looking for is that maybe im not adding my toppings close enough to the rim of the pie. Giving it the effect of a huge rim. I believe all the toppings would keep the dough underneath from rising.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 10:47:21 AM by FeCheF »

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1179
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2011, 04:04:16 PM »
Yeah im having trouble converting to % since my recipe is two-stage. Oh well, i just take the 21 3/4 ounce dough ball and tear off 2 ounces. Its waist i know, but only 2 ounces. I would rather keep the ratio exact and waist, then try reducing everything and messing it up. Heres last nights margherita.The rim is still a bit big, so i might try tearing off 3 ounces next time.



Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 969
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 07:57:18 AM »
Waste good pizza dough? No way!
Make one or two breadsticks out of it, or roll it thin and add a little cheese and meat filling, then fold it over and crimp the edges, tear a small hole in the center of the filled pocket and bake along with your pizza. The cook/chef can then enjoy a little appetizer before the main course.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline chickenparm

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Kentucky-Making New York Style Pies
  • Oh No,Not Pizza Again!!!
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2011, 04:11:57 PM »
That Pizza looks great to me!
 8)
Don't worry about making smaller doughs,DO that and learn from it as well.You will be enjoy stretching the smaller dough balls to larger sizes and not worry about too big a rim either.

 :)
-Bill


Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1179
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2011, 10:38:13 PM »
Waste good pizza dough? No way!
Make one or two breadsticks out of it, or roll it thin and add a little cheese and meat filling, then fold it over and crimp the edges, tear a small hole in the center of the filled pocket and bake along with your pizza. The cook/chef can then enjoy a little appetizer before the main course.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Not really a fan of breadsticks along with pizza, but your other suggestion sounds like a mini calzone. Since i usually do wings, or buffalo chicken strips in the fryer along with my pizza UFC fight nights, you got me thinking about doing some cheese filled  fried dough or emapanadas ,whatever you wanna call them. I just hope my dough recipe can hold up in my fryer without bursting and making a huge mess.

That Pizza looks great to me!
 8)
Don't worry about making smaller doughs,DO that and learn from it as well.You will be enjoy stretching the smaller dough balls to larger sizes and not worry about too big a rim either.

 :)

The pizza was great chickenparm. It just bothers me that i cant figure out how to convert my recipes into percentages. I spent $40 on my scale and it only does grams and ounces. The recipe i use is two part. So if I am to reduce it, i must reduce it twice and figure out what percent i reduce twice. If i try to reduce the full amount on the first or second stage it may screw up the results. I posted the recipe but nobody has gave me an exact reduction for the size pie, and rim i am looking for. *sigh*

Offline chickenparm

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Kentucky-Making New York Style Pies
  • Oh No,Not Pizza Again!!!
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2011, 11:26:55 PM »
Have you tried using the Lehmann's Dough calculator on the home page?

If not,use that calculator to get your flour,water hydration % and thickness factor as close as possible for the size of the pie you want to make.TF or thickness factor,put in .07 or maybe .08 instead of .10. for a medium sized rim.10 will be too fat,unless you stretch the dough to a larger size.

With the rest of the recipe,for salt,sugar,oil,yeast and etc,the calculator also shows Tbs or Tsp sizes.Dont weigh those,just round those off as close as you can using spoon sizes.

For example,if a salt,oil,or sugar amount calls for .45 or .54 of a TBS I simply use 1/2 a TBS of it.Same for the IDY yeast,if it calls for .20 of .30 of a tsp,I use 1/2 a tsp.Some of those are too small to weigh,I just round them off as close as I can.I cannot weigh the grams or ounces with my scale for those small amounts,so I use the spoon sizes as close as I can get it,per the chart from the calculator.

It works well and I never have trouble with my doughs doing it this way.
-Bill

Offline Jet_deck

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3041
  • Location: Between Houston and Mexico
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2011, 12:46:59 AM »
Not really a fan of breadsticks along with pizza ...


I am not sure about deep frying (it should probably work), but dough fried one side at a time in olive oil, coated in sugar would be a great use for the extra dough.   See here, fourth picture down.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12718.msg122701.html#msg122701  The raspberry puree was not really needed, they were very good alone.
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1179
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2011, 02:10:05 AM »
Have you tried using the Lehmann's Dough calculator on the home page?

If not,use that calculator to get your flour,water hydration % and thickness factor as close as possible for the size of the pie you want to make.TF or thickness factor,put in .07 or maybe .08 instead of .10. for a medium sized rim.10 will be too fat,unless you stretch the dough to a larger size.

With the rest of the recipe,for salt,sugar,oil,yeast and etc,the calculator also shows Tbs or Tsp sizes.Dont weigh those,just round those off as close as you can using spoon sizes.

For example,if a salt,oil,or sugar amount calls for .45 or .54 of a TBS I simply use 1/2 a TBS of it.Same for the IDY yeast,if it calls for .20 of .30 of a tsp,I use 1/2 a tsp.Some of those are too small to weigh,I just round them off as close as I can.I cannot weigh the grams or ounces with my scale for those small amounts,so I use the spoon sizes as close as I can get it,per the chart from the calculator.

It works well and I never have trouble with my doughs doing it this way.

Thats what i do aswell. Except i use a nickle as it weighs exactly 5 grams, so if my recipe calls for 1 tsp i level a tsp, put a small petri dish on the scale and zero it out, add the nickle and add the tsp and take that weight minus the 5 gram nickle. Its the best i can get with my scale but when it comes to % im clueless.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21954
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2011, 09:24:15 AM »

 Since i usually do wings, or buffalo chicken strips in the fryer along with my pizza UFC fight nights, you got me thinking about doing some cheese filled  fried dough or emapanadas ,whatever you wanna call them. I just hope my dough recipe can hold up in my fryer without bursting and making a huge mess.



FeCheF,

I used many ways of frying pizza dough.  If you are interested this is where I posted the links to fried dough I tried at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12756.msg123242.html#msg123242

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 969
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Finally, the perfect dough..but..
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 02:33:59 PM »
FeChef;
If you want to fry the dough, not a problem, just make sure you set the formed pieces (mini calzones) aside to proof/rise for about 20 to 30-minutes before you place them into the fryer. I like to fry submerged, as they look better, but they can be surface fried if you don't mind the white line. Note: don't put a pressure release hole in the dough if you plan to fry it.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


 

pizzapan