Author Topic: Avpn training advice and questions.  (Read 1334 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline thezaman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1935
  • Age: 61
  • Location: ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
    • lorenzos pizza
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2014, 08:44:57 PM »
 i think the whole pizza making lesson decision and why you would or would not do it is different for every one. when i started making Neapolitan pizza in my back yard with my new primevera70 it was very challenging. the high hydration dough and quick cook times resulted in a lot of frustration.that is when i first found this site.back then Craig was using his gas grill and Marco was really making this style of pizza sound very complicated. that is when i decided to take a vpn class. it was a vacation that was food related.  i went with my son and had a great time. i learned how to make the dough and cheese in quantity batches. i cooked during a few busy nights using a much larger oven than mine.
 when i left and got home i realized that the pizza tasted very similar in all aspects to mine, i was happy.i still felt that there were other pizzerias that may make a better neapolitan pizza. i headed to new york and ate at keste and loved the pizza!! i knew he was a avpn instructor and decided to go to his school. it was expensive but for 10 days of training i felt it was worth it.. i learned his methods which on a recipe basis were the same as the vpn method. the difference was dough management. from how it is stored to how to stretch it. i had no doubt that this was the method of Naples, with dough management that used no refrigeration,and controlled by yeast amount and salt levels.
 still looking for the neapolitan pizza that would be above all others i headed to Naples. i visited the caputo factory and ate lots of pizza. for me the pizza that was the best in Naples was da michaele's .the double mozzarella was amazing!! it is a non vpn  pizzeria and it was packed with flavor. according to mr caputo it was because of criscito  {old dough}used when making the dough.
 all of the other pizzerias we ate at were vpn certified. they were very similar to what i do but they have little secrets that they follow mostly their flour blends. blue and orange blue an Manitoba etc. 
 so that is my quest. if it was now that i started i would be visiting omid,craig or john conklin. probably all of them! and i still would do a professional class.
  has this been a waste of money? no, i use this background in all of my promoting my mobile oven the beautiful flame. i can say that with so many operators using the vpn document in promoting their product that i have put a lot of real time and effort in what i do. and not many can say that, for most of them its just words.
   


Offline parallei

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 428
  • Location: Denver
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2014, 10:42:32 PM »
thezaman,

Nice summary of your experiences.  I've been trying to do the NP thing for the last three years or so on my 2Stone.  I've been making some progress, but I'm not sure how much a structured class would help at this point.  A WFO certainly might help, or maybe throw me back two  years. >:(

I'd love to just hang out and watch a talented pizzaiolo while they were working and be able to just ask questions about things that are of interest to me. At this point, a structured class or course of instruction would be of no interest to me.

Paul

Offline jeffereynelson

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1278
  • Location: Los Angeles
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2014, 12:26:27 AM »
I don't know, but $500 a day doesn't seem that crazy to me. That will be like one weeks worth of food inventory once your place is open. And a restaurant can easily cost 500k+ to open. So paying $2500 for professional training to me seems pretty useful. I mean yes you can study for years and learn it. But it just seems like an accelerated class. I mean what can't you learn from the internet on your own now? By that reasoning all higher education is quite useless.

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3546
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2014, 12:28:09 AM »
You can bet that most of the class will be things you already know, or should know, but they spend the time on them is case you don't.  If you have the time and money, go for it for fun, just don't spend the kid's college money in hope that you will learn any secrets.

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3546
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2014, 12:30:11 AM »
You can only learn dough by working with it.  Reading and YouTube will not suffice.

Offline jsaras

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 794
  • Location: Northridge, CA
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2014, 10:16:16 AM »
I think that the best Neapolitan dough I ever made was made with IDY and a food processor.  You're not going to find that in the AVPN cookbook.  MacGyver baby!
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline quixoteQ

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 289
  • Location: Boston
  • Give me Shackleton Every Time
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2014, 10:26:00 AM »
There are many different students.  They seek teachers for various reasons, and the relationship between teacher and student can mean many different things.  One thing that invariably happens is that the student is asked to speak in the language of the particular discourse before the student knows the words.  Like jumping off a diving board for the first time, a student learns so much in that first attempt at discourse that it is difficult for him to accurately remember what he knew before the leap.  These early attempts to participate in the discourse can never be undone.

I think that a student who enters into a relationship with a teacher thinking he will learn how to do something correctly will never reach full potential.  It's all about learning how to join the discourse, because all of the benefit comes from the discourse, the ability to participate; and a student must know that it never ends, or all he'll learn is a bunch of words.  A lot can be accomplished between a student and a teacher if both understand this idea.   It really depends on the individuals.  One of the spectacular things about this forum is that discourse.  But how many potential members never figure out how to take those first steps?  It's not because there aren't good teachers here, but because they are looking for a different type of teacher, the type that can give them the knowledge, or fulfill "the wish" and transform them into the perfect pizza maker.

Josh

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11399
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2014, 10:32:38 AM »
If I give a teacher 25 hundred bucks because he is known for making a damn good pizza......when the instruction is done , I better be able to make a pizza just like his.   I`m not looking to sweep his floors or wash his pots and pans.

I can add my own `uniqueness` to it later if I choose.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 10:34:26 AM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline dineomite

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 161
  • Location: Cleveland, OH
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2014, 11:16:28 AM »
Fagilia,

A class is only as good as its teacher. If they're well organized, succinct, and truly interested in teaching you then it could be worth the money. I have received instruction that has been completely transformative, but have also walked away feeling completely ripped off. Try to seek out others that have received instruction from him and get their opinions. As far as secrets go, some instructors feel compelled to justify the cost by letting you in on their secrets. Some will only let you in on a couple of them. Still others are so insecure that the do absolutely nothing to further your knowledge.

It's been my experience that it only takes one small bit of information to completely open up your eyes to new possibilities. Only you know how far your pizza knowledge needs to progress. I have found the contributors to pizzamaking.com to be tremendously helpful in furthering my understanding, but there's something to be said for actually seeing and doing something in person.

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3546
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2014, 02:17:25 PM »
I did some cleanup in here, let's keep it on track talking about training, please.


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22649
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2014, 02:47:07 PM »
I did some cleanup in here, let's keep it on track talking about training, please.

I agree Tom.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 358
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2014, 04:51:15 PM »
Ok thank you guys so far but ive been busy making pizzas.
I would agree with you norma and others offcourse if ciro was a really good teatcher i would consult him for reasonable money.
here is a pizza i made today which was taught to me by this forum :)

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13251
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2014, 04:55:49 PM »
here is a pizza i made today which was taught to me by this forum :)

I rest my case.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11399
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2014, 05:05:56 PM »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline stonecutter

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 806
  • Location: SC
    • Old World Stone & Garden
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2014, 06:18:51 PM »
I'll throw my hat in the ring....

I see this exact same discussion among stonemasons, specifically those that want to specialize in dry stone walls....to train or not to train.   There are a lot of good reasons for training, for one, it's a starting point if someone has never walled or was never taught proper technique.  Every student is different, each has circumstances and abilities that are unique to the individual.  Some get the training and dogmatically follow what they learned, and never open up to other styles and techniques....they only do what they are taught.  They cannot think beyond their training either....looking at other methods as inferior or not true to the style.

 Then you have those that take the training and use it like a spring board into a broader scope of work (IMO, a more complete one ) within the craft.   And finally you have the group I belong in.  The ones that started out working for great craftsmen, worked incessantly on our own to further individual knowledge base...by doing, by learning, by failing  and succeeding.  I know stonemasons(& masons) that have come from all three situations.

The common denominator? They are all different types of people.  So the real issue with stifled creativity is how an individual uses they training they get.  The training itself not the problem. 
http://oldworldstoneandgarden.com/


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
John Ruskin

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11399
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2014, 06:28:57 PM »
Here`s my 2cents...paid pizza lessons are for suckers.

I love to make Chi-town thin pizzas and I am pretty good at it.....you come over to my house any time and I will show you what I know for stinking free jack. That`s right....I have `the Passion` baby.   8)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline vandev

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
  • Location: florida
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2014, 06:37:05 PM »
I rest my case.

couldn't have said it better.... :drool: puts my pies this weekend to shame...  well done.. ;D I love that you added pearl tomatoes as well as garlic to the margarita.. I will have to try that..awesome idea..who taught you that Ciro?  :-D
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 06:42:03 PM by vandev »

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 358
Re: Avpn training advice and questions.
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2014, 01:17:49 AM »
No vandev not ciro it was Dr Oetker which would be a german frozen pizza brand. The ingredients are tomatoe. Mozz. Pesto. Hard cheese. Cherry tomatoes which i slowly cook in oil. Thats my version of it. Even if it is from frozen pizza or whatever its good :)