Puffy rim/ shaping technique

[Martino1]

dear all,
I need your opinion. At the moment i slap and stretch the skin.
i use the technique as described in this forum and videos. Push the air bubbles to the outer rim with one hand, stretching the dough carefully with the other. so actually i am happy with the results. I can see this method applied by neapolitan pizzaiolos.

There is another technique, in which you first Stamp or punch down a line ca. 1 inch from the edge to form the cornicione and then push down the inner circle and thus making the skin thinner. i see this method applied by non-neapolitan pizzamakers.

The question: will the second method still create an equally airy crust ? Isn't it mainly dough, since through pressing down the inncer circle, the air won't go to the cornicione/ crust.

Or

Is it just a matter of personal like ? What is your experience and opinion ?
i will post a picture to illustrate the difference.

[Bill/SFNM]

Assuming proper fermentation & proofing, the puffiness of the edge, in my experience, is much more about intense heat and the width/thickness of the edge after stretching than it is about stretching technique. For me stretching technique is for uniformity and minimal handling. Not the conventional wisdom, but definitely what I have observed. 

[Martino1]

please see the pics attach.

Bill, thanks for the reply.
Assuming you handle the dough carefully in both techniques and trying not to degas it, same oven temp and hydration etc., would not the rim in the second one consist of more dough, than the techniques in which we push the air to the rim ?

thanks as usual

[Bill/SFNM]

Bill, thanks for the reply.
Assuming you handle the dough carefully in both techniques and trying not to degas it, same oven temp and hydration etc., would not the rim in the second one consist of more dough, than the techniques in which we push the air to the rim ?

I guess this depends on your dough. In my experiments, there is a difference between "careful" and "minimal". As Chau witnessed, after stretching, I can pound the edge with my fist and it still puffs up perfectly. The dough doesn't degass  much, if at all. Most of the air pockets seem locked within the gluten structure.  

But over-handling the dough during stretching can toughen it. The name of the game for me is to get the desired shape with as few moves as possible - press out the ball, slap a few times, then a few turns of the edge around the fists.  

Why not do 1/2 of your pie with technique #1 and the other half with #2 and see what you get?

[Tscarborough]

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11391.80.html

Reply 89

I did the experiment, and it did make an obvious difference.

[c0mpl3x]

ill have someone take a video of how i make my crust when i'm at work here in about half an hour, ill post it when i get home around midnight

[Martino1]

Why not do 1/2 of your pie with technique #1 and the other half with #2 and see what you get?

Will try for next sunday's bake. However i think i will use two similar dough balls instead on the same pie. I watched yours and chau's experiment regarding pressing down the rim.

I would like to test the difference in crumb by trying to achieve tye same height and volume of the crust before baking but
A) by pushing the air and dough from the middle to the rim and
B) to "stamp off" or kind of separate the rim first (with the same volume) and then pushing down the middle or stretch using the fist

[c0mpl3x]

Will try for next sunday's bake. However i think i will use two similar dough balls instead on the same pie. I watched yours and chau's experiment regarding pressing down the rim.

I would like to test the difference in crumb by trying to achieve tye same height and volume of the crust before baking but
A) by pushing the air and dough from the middle to the rim and
B) to "stamp off" or kind of separate the rim first (with the same volume) and then pushing down the middle or stretch using the fist

didn't have time to get to my stretch tonight, 10% of my time at work was in-store.   deliveries out the wazoo tonight

[Martino1]

Thanks guys.

really gotta try it. It seems technique B is usually applied by users of high hydration doughs, for which technique slap and stretch could be difficult and might lead to uneven spots ? Through the high hydration and oven temperature the spring will be there and still lead to an aerated crust.

For lower hydration doughs, could be that technique B will trap the existing bubbles in the rim, but not get more air from the center airpockets to the rim, due to the pressed down dough line.

Mmmhhh.... There is no other way than try and compare 
Virtual pizza stretching doesn't really help here 

[Martino1]

I tried the techniques, results posted in reply 33
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15298.20.html#lastPost

Pie 3 was done by "stamping" the rim first and then i pressed down the center, while enlarging the pie. I found the result being equally good to stretch and slap. Maybe because also there, the air in the center will finally end up in the rim if handled with care.

i would agree to Bill, that it is not so much the technique as long as paying attention not to degass to much.

I still have problems rolling the dough over my knuckles even when i pay attention to stretch the rim. i just get uneven structure or even holes, so for me and moderately hydrated doughs i like slp and stretch best.

any further ideas welcome.
Martin