Author Topic: Anyone ever try ADM flours?  (Read 3872 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1187
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« on: November 03, 2011, 11:29:59 AM »
I came across these flours at a local supply warehouse.They come in 50# bags. I am considering trying one of them to save some money if there comparable to KABF.

A premium spring flour, Commander® combines the pure attributes of patent flour with the strength provided by its medium-level protein content. 
A versatile medium for hearth breads, pizza crust and hoagies.
 Moisture %: 14.0
 Ash %: ~0.54
 Protein %: ~13.0

A great multi-purpose, premium, high-gluten flour.  Gigantic®  works well in a variety of applications, including bagels, Kaiser rolls, hearth breads and thin-crust pizza.
It’s also our best-suited, high-gluten flour for frozen doughs.
Moisture %: 14.0
Ash %: ~0.52
Protein %: ~14.0


scott123

  • Guest
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 12:18:49 PM »
Bromated Commander will run circles around KABF.

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1187
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 12:43:48 PM »
Bromated Commander will run circles around KABF.

Well thats good to know scott, thanks for your input. I will be picking up a 50# bag of commander asap. But i didnt see it say bromated anywhere so how do you know its bromated? Also what do you think the gigantic high gluten would be comparable to? KASL? Im just wondering which would be better to buy since i have been using KABF and adding VWG to match KASL and getting really good results, but I would rather take a better quality/flavor flour and add VWG to match the protein level i am having good results with.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 01:44:41 PM »
FeCheF, being in Pennsylvania, the Commander flour you have access to is most likely bromated, as pizzerias on the East Coast generally won't use unbromated flour, and, because no-one uses it, it's very difficult to buy. Look at the ingredients on the bag- it will list 'potassium bromate.'

From looking at your previous posts, it looks like NY style pizza is your primary focus.  Quite a few NY pizzerias use All Trumps, which happens to be 14% protein, but, in my experience, 14% flours, unless you severely underknead them, produce an end product that's a bit too chewy- at least the cold fermented doughs popular in this forum end up chewy. It's quite possible that typical NY places don't end up with chewy pizza with 14% flour because of the traditional shorter fermentation times.

If you are going to overnight cold ferment, then I highly recommend avoiding either a 14% flour or a 14% equivalent blend.  Unless your goal is something really chewy.  If chewy is your thing, then go with the gigantic. Otherwise, for NY style, I don't think you can do better than commander. Regardless of which you go with, it's critical that you stop using VWG.  VWG tastes horrible, doesn't provide much oven spring, and is only suitable for those parts of the world where bread flour can't be found.

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1187
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 02:32:14 PM »
FeCheF, being in Pennsylvania, the Commander flour you have access to is most likely bromated, as pizzerias on the East Coast generally won't use unbromated flour, and, because no-one uses it, it's very difficult to buy. Look at the ingredients on the bag- it will list 'potassium bromate.'

From looking at your previous posts, it looks like NY style pizza is your primary focus.  Quite a few NY pizzerias use All Trumps, which happens to be 14% protein, but, in my experience, 14% flours, unless you severely underknead them, produce an end product that's a bit too chewy- at least the cold fermented doughs popular in this forum end up chewy. It's quite possible that typical NY places don't end up with chewy pizza with 14% flour because of the traditional shorter fermentation times.

If you are going to overnight cold ferment, then I highly recommend avoiding either a 14% flour or a 14% equivalent blend.  Unless your goal is something really chewy.  If chewy is your thing, then go with the gigantic. Otherwise, for NY style, I don't think you can do better than commander. Regardless of which you go with, it's critical that you stop using VWG.  VWG tastes horrible, doesn't provide much oven spring, and is only suitable for those parts of the world where bread flour can't be found.

Thanks for the info scott, when i looked at the bag i didnt see any ingredient list on the front or back of the bag. Just a list of other types of flour ADM produces. I have had very bad results doing long cold ferments because my fridge is too cold so i do 1-day room temp ferments with very good results. Its funny you say VWG taste horrible, ever since i started using it I have been getting really good stretching/shaping  results, and everyone thinks the crust tastes great. I am only using like 10 grams of VWG to about 358 grams of KABF so i cant see it changing the taste by much, if it even does change the taste.

I will get the commander flour and try without VWG first to see how it turns out, but if i dont get good stretching/shaping i will try with VWG and just lower to about 8 grams instead of 10 to make up for the increase in protein commander has over KABF.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22481
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 03:25:50 PM »
FeChef,

I have used ADM Gigantic High-Gluten flour with good results in NY style pies different times.  For me it performs the same as KASL.  I have done a side by side comparison different times with my market dough.   Just a few weeks ago our restaurant store had it on sale for 12.99 for a 50 lb. bag.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1187
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2011, 01:11:32 PM »
FeChef,

I have used ADM Gigantic High-Gluten flour with good results in NY style pies different times.  For me it performs the same as KASL.  I have done a side by side comparison different times with my market dough.   Just a few weeks ago our restaurant store had it on sale for 12.99 for a 50 lb. bag.

Norma

Norma do you see anywhere on the bag that says if its bromated or not. I vaguely remember looking on the bag for protien content and if it was bleached/unbleached and dont remember seeing any specs or ingredient list.

Im debating if i should get both and try a 50/50 mix.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2011, 04:31:15 PM »
FeCheF, get the Commander ;D

13% protein flours give you a range of texture going from tender to chewy, depending on formulation and kneading times, while 14% flours give you a range going from chewy to leather. Commander can do anything Gigantic will do (and more) with the sole exception that it can't do leather.

14% protein flour doughs can be tenderized if you ramp up the oil, but that's pushing the boundaries of NY style and should probably be something you experiment with after you've mastered the classic formula.

If you want to buy both, go for it, but 100# of flour is a lot to use up. Even if the Commander is unbromated, it will still run circles around KABF.

Edit: Re; stretching/shaping... any 11+% protein flour dough, as long as the ingredient ratios and fermentation are within reasonable parameters, should have no problems being formed. If you are encountering stretching issues, it's not a matter of adding VWG, but, rather, taking a look at your recipe and dough handling. Because VWG is damaged protein, it's hurting your extensibility, not helping it.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 04:52:52 PM by scott123 »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22481
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 04:46:12 PM »
Norma do you see anywhere on the bag that says if its bromated or not. I vaguely remember looking on the bag for protien content and if it was bleached/unbleached and dont remember seeing any specs or ingredient list.

Im debating if i should get both and try a 50/50 mix.

FeCheF,

ADM Gigantic High-Gluten flour is bromated.

This is the link to ADM Gigantic High Gluten Flour http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/USWheat/Pages/Gigantic.aspx

and the ADM Commander Flour http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/USWheat/Pages/Commander.aspx

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Chet

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 321
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2011, 11:53:04 PM »


 In the NEPA area we have a well know famous pizzeria for 50 plus years and one day we were in there for pizza and they had a few bags in the area where they make the dough it was ADM Spring up, it is the next step down from Commander, funny thing is they only make thin pizza, I read the specs on the ADM "Spring Up" flour it seems to be equal to GM Full Strength   

    Chet

PS what areas in PA are you getting ADM flours, If I came across a bag of Commander or Spring up, I would try some


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22481
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2011, 09:01:54 AM »

PS what areas in PA are you getting ADM flours, If I came across a bag of Commander or Spring up, I would try some


Chet,

The Restaurant Stores are here.  http://www.therestaurantstore.com/sign-in.html?def=false&redir=%2F  Search by Zip Code. The Commander flour is listed here. http://www.therestaurantstore.com/8935/bulk-flour.html

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Chet

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 321
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2011, 07:21:39 PM »


   Rather than travel 3 hrs round trip for the ADM Commander flour, I happened to see it at a local Price Shopper, I ask the manager if he would sell me a bag, when I heard the price, I said I would pass, after awhileI figured I would spend the extra money than travel, it was $29.00 I hope it makes a good italian bread and pizza dough.

   Chet

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2011, 07:37:45 PM »
$29, Chet?  Whoah, that's a lotta dough :)  I know you like experimenting with different flours, so I think you should get your money's worth in that regard.  I don't think this flour is going to be any noticeably better than Full Strength or King Midas, though.

Offline Chet

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 321
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2011, 08:40:10 PM »

 HI Scott 123

  I know, I know, I had to buy it. I have a feeling I am not going to see any difference from my all time favorite GM Full Strength. actually the manager said this is his cost, he wanted to show me the invoice, but I declined. I was sore from just a $29.00 shock


   Chet

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1187
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2011, 02:11:51 AM »
HI Scott 123

  I know, I know, I had to buy it. I have a feeling I am not going to see any difference from my all time favorite GM Full Strength. actually the manager said this is his cost, he wanted to show me the invoice, but I declined. I was sore from just a $29.00 shock


   Chet

I am definitly interested in your results with this flour. Im guessing $29.00 was for a 50# bag? I think it was 21.00 and some change for a 50# bag. I havent got around to buying a bag yet as i still have roughly 7# of KABF left, but i cant wait to try this flour.

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1187
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 05:27:46 PM »
I finally picked up this commander flour today. Im going to make an overnight cold preferment and a room temp dough rise tommorow to test it out. Scott, it was bromated. Heres a pic of the 50# bag.


scott123

  • Guest
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 05:36:32 PM »
Oh, yeah, that's the good stuff  ;D  Stretch it thin and bake it quickly (less than 5 minutes) and you'll have the best pizza you've ever had.

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1187
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2011, 11:45:40 AM »
Made two pies last night with this commander flour. I followed my tried and true dough recipe and I ended up with what should have been a 63% hydration. But it felt like a 55% hydration. It was hard to work with. When i went to reball them i got tearing.(im guessing that meant under kneading?) And when it came time to stretch them out they fought back. I finally did win the battle and the fight was worth it as the pies did turn out great...different, but great and good flavor and texture. I think im going to need some help on how to work with a flour like this. Here are some pics.


scott123

  • Guest
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2011, 12:31:22 PM »
FeCheF, never reball NY style pizza dough.

Mix
Knead
Ball
Cold ferment
Let warm up
Form
Bake

Also, are you hand kneading or using a machine?  When you knead by hand, it's important to weigh the dough post kneading and calculate how much flour you've added during the knead.  This can add up.  63% hydration is a pretty good number for commander, but if you kneaded in enough flour to drop it to 61, that might be getting a bit dry.

Lastly, how much kneading are you doing?  Tearing could be underkneading, but it could just as easily be overkneading.  I'm not sure how long you've been doing this, but  I've never seen a beginning pizzamaker knead too little, while I've seen countless knead too much.The reball is the primary culprit, but it also might be worth looking at kneading.

Offline FeCheF

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1187
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Pennsylvania
Re: Anyone ever try ADM flours?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2011, 06:47:21 PM »
FeCheF, never reball NY style pizza dough.

Mix
Knead
Ball
Cold ferment
Let warm up
Form
Bake

Also, are you hand kneading or using a machine?  When you knead by hand, it's important to weigh the dough post kneading and calculate how much flour you've added during the knead.  This can add up.  63% hydration is a pretty good number for commander, but if you kneaded in enough flour to drop it to 61, that might be getting a bit dry.

Lastly, how much kneading are you doing?  Tearing could be underkneading, but it could just as easily be overkneading.  I'm not sure how long you've been doing this, but  I've never seen a beginning pizzamaker knead too little, while I've seen countless knead too much.The reball is the primary culprit, but it also might be worth looking at kneading.

Scott, I have a Delonghi DSM800 mixer. I start by mixing the preferment, flour, salt, honey and IDY till no flour is left in the bottom of the bowl. I let autolyse for roughly 5 minutes. I then mix on speed 2-3 for 10 minutes. Ball it and spray container with non stick spray and let rise for 1 1/2 hours, punch down, reball and let rise in container another 1 1/2 hours. Then stretch the skin.

This is same recipe,method i use with KABF.