Author Topic: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions  (Read 3588 times)

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Offline scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2011, 08:00:57 PM »
Any clue what the 1st mode in my pics means. btw? Because if it were simply the opposite mode of the 3rd one in the pic, why would it have this different drawing to it? Ya know what I mean?
And what kind of modes do you guys use? what is drawn for this specific mode you guys use? I'm curious

Your guess is as good as mine. Did the oven come with a manual?

As far as the modes I use, I use bake (bottom element) for the pre-heat, then turn the broiler on during the last two minutes of a four minute bake.


buceriasdon

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2011, 08:13:17 PM »
The first mode is what we call a broiler. Only the top heating element is on. Shahar, pizza baking is a balancing act between the correct amount of top and bottom heat. Too little of one or the other leads to the top half of the pizza being not properly baked while the lower half is over baked or vice versa. It's a matter of getting to know what your oven can or more importantly cannot do. It's a matter of baking pizzas and trying different methods to find the one that works for you with YOUR oven.
Don

Any clue what the 1st mode in my pics means. btw? Because if it were simply the opposite mode of the 3rd one in the pic, why would it have this different drawing to it? Ya know what I mean?
And what kind of modes do you guys use? what is drawn for this specific mode you guys use? I'm curious

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2011, 08:27:31 PM »
Thanks for the tip of letting the convection mode do the preheating, Scott,
Also, given the fact my oven is 475, will 75 preheat be sufficient? or should I go longer than that?

Don, I don't think there is that much to it (or should I say I don't hope so), I mean, we just confirmed I only have 3 non-fan modes, broiler, bottom and even
Wouldn't that mean I should just preheat the oven (using the convection mode), then bake the pizza using the even mode? Or are you implying that you arn't sure about the even mode being the best way to go for my baking, and that it might aswell be bottom/broiler and that I should experiment?

Scott, where can I find the said recipes by Peter? Also, dealing with a lower temperature oven, in practical terms, what does this mean? how does it change the procedure? would one have to use more/less ingredients? (if you take the formula I intended to use - Flour (100%) Water (60%) IDY (0.5%) Salt (1.7%) Oil (1%) Sugar (2%) for example)

Thanks
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 08:31:36 PM by DoughFoSho »

buceriasdon

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2011, 07:27:57 AM »
Shahar, Experimenting to find the right combination of dough to oven is exactly what I am saying. You may find just using the low element works best, no one knows for sure how your particular oven will work best for pizza. In order to experiment you first have to make some dough and then form the skin, place toppings and then bake. Reading about the process is all well and good but you need to start working with some mass. Get out to the kitchen and make some pizza. Have you recipe close at hand so you don't leave out something and go for it. Take notes for future reference. Hands on experience is the best teacher.
Don


Don, I don't think there is that much to it (or should I say I don't hope so), I mean, we just confirmed I only have 3 non-fan modes, broiler, bottom and even
Wouldn't that mean I should just preheat the oven (using the convection mode), then bake the pizza using the even mode? Or are you implying that you arn't sure about the even mode being the best way to go for my baking, and that it might aswell be bottom/broiler and that I should experiment?

Scott, where can I find the said recipes by Peter? Also, dealing with a lower temperature oven, in practical terms, what does this mean? how does it change the procedure? would one have to use more/less ingredients? (if you take the formula I intended to use - Flour (100%) Water (60%) IDY (0.5%) Salt (1.7%) Oil (1%) Sugar (2%) for example)

Thanks

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2011, 09:46:20 AM »
Ok, made a batch of 60% water 1.7% salt 2% sugar 0.5% idy, only thing tho, my original calculator also included 1% olive oil, which I forgot to write down as I went to the kitchen, but no biggie

This was a 2 dough batch of 0.085 TF, devided the dough by 2, one was 328g, the other- 329g.
I'll get back to one of them in 24 hours [=

Offline scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2011, 10:02:54 AM »
Shahar, you have a relatively thick stone which is going to take a while to pre-heat.  It really depends on the oven as to how long it will take to pre-heat, though. Some ovens are powerful and some are weak.  You might be able to get away with less time, but, for now, go with 90 minutes.

Use bake w/ convection for the pre-heat, then use the broiler for the bake.  With the thickness of the stone, having the bottom element on while the pizza is baking will have no impact.

I was kind of hoping Peter would chime in with his favorite pizza recipe, but I think his Papa John clone is one of his more popular formulations:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html

It works well at lower temps because the high quantity of oil tends to produce a tender crumb and good oven spring. I don't thing there are any hard and fast rules about thickness, so, if you wanted something a bit more NYish, you could dial back the thickness factor a bit.

The formula you're working with would be an excellent jumping off point for your flour, IF you had an oven that could get hot enough. Since you've already made the dough, you might as well bake it. You never know, although the "9" setting is supposed to be 475 according to google, perhaps your oven might run a bit hotter.  Give it a shot.

Eventually you'll want an infrared thermometer to confirm the temp of the stone prior to baking.  Here's one that I recommend that will work well for the style you're interested in.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/digital-infrared-thermometer-with-laser-sight-32-c-380-c-26-f-716-f-29079

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2011, 11:05:50 AM »
Thanks for the comment!
I like your point of how bottom heat will have no effect due to my stone thickness, that makes sense
Secondly, you're basically saying that lower temp- alot of olive oil, so I guess I'm really screwed I havn't used olive oil at all then, huh? :\
How do you think it will affect the outcome? (Eventhough I'll get to see it tomorrow, but I kinda want to know what to expect)

As for the InfraRed, THANKS! I appreciate you going through the trouble of also finding me a link,
a couple questions, though
What temp do I aim for, using this InfraRed gun? I mean, what temp should my oven be at when I start baking the pizza? Because I know Chamotte stones they can get to very high temperatures, even 3X the highest temp of the oven
(Also, if I do purchase it, I will still have use for it with my new oven, right? You guys use IR aswell?)

Btw, speaking of hardware, my scale is 5KG/1g, and I, by accident, bumped into this 2pound/0.1g pocket scale in dealextreme (and found similar ones on eBay) for like 8$
Should I get one of those? because mine is 1g minimum, or do you think it isn't that big of a deal and I should just stick to my 5K/1g one?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 11:45:44 AM by DoughFoSho »

Offline scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2011, 11:50:00 AM »
Shahar, right now, you want to pre-heat the stone to the highest temp the oven will go. You probably already know this, but, just in case you don't, all electric ovens have probes that measure the temp in the oven.  When choosing a setting on the dial, the probe monitors the oven temps, so when the oven reaches that temp, the probe tells the thermostat and the thermostat shuts the heating element off.  The oven then will start to cool a bit, and the thermostat will turn the heating element on again. Over the course of a long pre-heat, the heating element cycles on and off many times and the temperature in the oven will hover in about a 50-75 (Fahrenheit)  degree range. This 50-75 range is the maximum temperature you can pre-heat your stone to and no higher, regardless of the stone's position in the oven.  The only way to get a higher temp is to have an oven with a higher setting or to shield the probe in such a way that it doesn't get hot, aka, an oven trick.

As far as baking stones go, the chamotte stone you have is pretty good.  The stones sold in stores in the U.S. are a lot thinner and don't work as well.  If the new oven you purchase gets hot enough (600ish F), then I would suggest continuing to use your current stone, but if the peak temp is lower, then I'd suggest getting something more conductive like 1/2" steel plate.

Most of the people who join this forum just want the simplest and easiest route to good pizza and don't really want to know all the ins and outs or approaches to make the most perfect pie possible. It tends to be an anti-intellectual, very hands on approach. You, on the other hand, seem to want to understand absolutely everything before the pizza hits the stone.  I applaud your excitement and your thirst for knowledge, and, as long as you ask questions, I'm going to answer them, but I think Don's got the right idea. Research will only get you so far. You'll learn a lot more, at this point, by making pizzas then you will by understanding every little nuance of the process. Most of the time, I'm trying to get people to run, but, in your instance, I think some walking is in order  ;D
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 12:17:45 PM by scott123 »

Offline scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2011, 11:56:14 AM »
Here's the reigning .1 accuracy scale of choice

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SC3LLS/?tag=pizzamaking-20

I'm not sure what shipping to Israel would be, though.

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2011, 12:19:11 PM »
Scott, thanks for the reply as always
Yes, I'm a perfectionist and in addition I like to know the reason behind things (actually I think perfectionism includes that in, lol) and not just act like a robot. This is why I'm such a pain in the ass and can't settle with less than perfect when I do things. Some would count this as a disadvantage, and it does get annoying sometimes, but I'm ok with it D:

This is why after joining this forum, it took me that long to make a batch, because I read so many things that have led me to change my procedure, searching for the flour and the rest of the things, ofcourse, and I agree with Don and you, and as I said; I already made a batch today, but as for now- all I can do is wait, because I let it proof for 24hours, right? ^_^

As for the scale, I don't think you understood my question
I know how to find those, I said I did,
here's one from DX, http://www.dealextreme.com/p/digital-pocket-scale-2lb-1kg-1165 (you can check their videos aswell)
aswell as if you search eBay for "digital scales" you will find many more alike.
Where to purchase them was not my question, I was wondering whether I should or shouldn't bother getting one of those, as I already have my scale, but mine goes by 1g devision and NOT 0.1g as this one (eventhough mine goes up to 5KG unlike those pocket ones, but we don't weight that much anyway)
So I was asking if you think I should get this kind of a scale or just stick to mine

Also, Scott
I found that this whole gas marks in the oven are pretty controversial. Even Wikipedia says so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Mark
Quote
Different manufacturers and oven types do vary, so this table cannot be relied upon; instead, cooks should refer to the cooker instruction book for the oven type used, or calibrate the scale using an oven thermometer.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061004073925AAta5mp
As you can see my Oven 9 gas mark can might aswell be 260CL which is 500F
I'll try to find this ovens model number and look for its manual online, but I think I have tried that already and failed
Worth a shot
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 12:25:19 PM by DoughFoSho »


Offline scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2011, 12:42:46 PM »
One thing that's incredibly helpful when trying to settle in on a procedure is to have a really good idea of what style you're trying to make. Each particular style has certain rules that have been fine tuned for decades.  To be honest, when you put 'NY like,' I wasn't really certain what that meant, but after you praised Mike's pies, I knew that I was pointing you in the right direction.  I'm curious, have you been to New York or was/is there a NY style pizzeria in your area that you're impressed with? I know that I'll sometimes look at a photo of a particular food and say "I want that," so if that's how you're approaching it, that's great, but I was wondering if you had eaten many great NY style pies.

That's good news about the oven setting controversy. 25 degrees would certainly help.  Every degree makes a difference.

I do fine without a .1g scale.  I've thought about buying one, but I don't completely trust the cheap calibration weights and the better weights are too expensive. I've also been sort of vacillating between the .1g accuracy scale and the .01g accuracy one. I'll probably break down eventually and buy one, but, right now, I'm fine with my dash, pinch and smidgeon measuring spoons.

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2011, 01:59:36 PM »
Thanks Scott.
I'll explain, when I say NY style, it is not the taste I am referring to, as I have never tasted an original one, BUT, I'm referring to the looks, this is why, as you said, I liked Mikes pies. what I look for is a thin pizza, chewy(well, I need a better flour but ya know), with a nice bubbly crust.

Tomorrow we will see how bubbly I can get with my oven, because like you said, I'd need a higher temp oven,
But I'm all in hope that my oven can get warmer than we all assume
Anyhew, I'll make sure that the new oven we will get will be a high-ass temp one [=
That's why I'm very glad we got to discuss oven temp now, when it's not too late

Thanks for the input regarding the scale, I'll just stick to my 1g devision one, then

« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 02:02:25 PM by DoughFoSho »

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2011, 01:10:43 PM »
Here's my first NY(?) guys! Thanks for the help, in this thread ofcourse

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16588.new.html

Pizza01

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2011, 05:55:32 PM »
Shahar.
19cl deg water is the tem i start the process with because the get ends up warmer after kneading it in the food processor. Its ok the yeast can handle that temp.
The small amount of yeast is the correct amount for me for this 24 hours rise.
You can read the keste clone thread, roberto the pizzaiolo said he put 1g of cake yeast per 1kg flour.
I puted little less then that.
I did this dough before it was great then also, i dont like the cold rise in this type of flour and after trying it before this time of year room temp rise for 24 hour give the dough softness, taste, airy crust.
It was perfect.
I will post tommarow.


 

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