Author Topic: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?  (Read 604 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« on: January 19, 2014, 11:44:19 AM »
Someone told me the other day when I asked why not use AP flour for more flakiness, "Bread Flour has a higher gluten content which gives it more body.  The thing that makes it flakier is putting in a lot of oil, kneading it for like 8 to 10 min, and letting it rise for 24 hours on the counter in an oiled bowl with a dishcloth covering it."

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Offline vcb

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2014, 12:50:10 PM »
Someone told me the other day when I asked why not use AP flour for more flakiness, "Bread Flour has a higher gluten content which gives it more body.  The thing that makes it flakier is putting in a lot of oil, kneading it for like 8 to 10 min, and letting it rise for 24 hours on the counter in an oiled bowl with a dishcloth covering it."


"BREAD FLOUR?! Hey man, are you trollin'?! "
Just kidding.  :angel:

There's three things that you're taking into play here.
First, there's the Bread Flour, which many of us have already confirmed is too high in gluten for deep dish.
All Purpose Flour (or an industry blend, sometimes described as Pizza Flour or 00 "Double Zero") is the flour to use.
I like Heckers/Ceresota because it has been around since the mid to late 1800s and it is my suspicion that there weren't a lot of flour options back in Chicago in the 1940s. http://heckersceresota.com/

Second, kneading develops more gluten and gluten is the enemy of deep dish crust.
Over-kneading deep dish dough can create too much gluten, which makes dough stretchy, and can lead to chewy, possibly bread-like crust.
We're not making NY style, so chewy is not the goal.

If the dough is OVER-over-kneaded (8 to 10 minutes sounds like over-over-kneading to me),
it can start to break the gluten strands that had developed from initial kneading,
and then you're more likely to end up with crumbly, rather than tender and/or flaky crust.
That may be the texture you're going for. Everyone has a different preference.
 
TheKitchn.com has an article about over-kneading and under-kneading:
http://www.thekitchn.com/bread-baking-clinic-under-knea-157484

Third, oil is the thing that helps the tender part of the equation.
Tom Lehman has an article about what oil does for pizza dough: http://www.pizzatoday.com/industry-news/oils-affect-dough/

You want to combine the ingredients, and then knead just long enough for the dough to get a minimum amount of gluten to shape into a relatively smooth ball, so it can rise properly. The oil will also help keep the moisture in the dough to help with the rising.
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Offline FLAVORMAN

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2014, 03:00:50 PM »
Bravo VCB.........great answer to a common question that really every deep dish fan needs to understand...thank you both....

Offline pythonic

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2014, 03:06:40 PM »
Thanks VCB.  I pretty much know as you but this person was insisting it didn't make a difference.
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Offline vcb

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2014, 10:19:39 PM »
Now that I'm thinking about it, over-kneading to point of gluten breakage,
combined with a much larger quantity of dough,
could explain the texture variable of the crust at Gino's East that I've been trying to get my head around.

I usually base my research on Lou Malnati's / Uno Style deep dish, so I'm sometimes thrown off by the mystery of the "Cab Driver Pies".

We've seen the labels. They use cream of tartar, food coloring and ABSOLUTELY ZERO FREAKIN' CORN MEAL,
and they use some proprietary blend of pizza flour, which has wheat and malted barley. Is it bread flour? I don't know. Possibly.

Let's work on a theory:
If Gino's is mixing their dough for 10 minutes,
perhaps they use the cream of tartar to help relax the gluten in the dough to give it the consistency of play-dough.
It may also keep the dough from baking into a wall of bready rock. The cream of tartar may also be how Gino's would compensate for Bread Flour.

I found a recipe for Gino's East that is similar to what Pythonic described.
http://www.favfamilyrecipes.com/2009/11/ginos-east-pizza.html

Has anyone in here witnessed dough mixing at Gino's East?
Perhaps we should leave this up to the Gino's East testers in the forum.  :pizza:  8)
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2014, 11:03:29 PM »
Now that I'm thinking about it, over-kneading to point of gluten breakage,
combined with a much larger quantity of dough,
could explain the texture variable of the crust at Gino's East that I've been trying to get my head around.

I usually base my research on Lou Malnati's / Uno Style deep dish, so I'm sometimes thrown off by the mystery of the "Cab Driver Pies".

We've seen the labels. They use cream of tartar, food coloring and ABSOLUTELY ZERO FREAKIN' CORN MEAL,
and they use some proprietary blend of pizza flour, which has wheat and malted barley. Is it bread flour? I don't know. Possibly.

Let's work on a theory:
If Gino's is mixing their dough for 10 minutes,
perhaps they use the cream of tartar to help relax the gluten in the dough to give it the consistency of play-dough.
It may also keep the dough from baking into a wall of bready rock. The cream of tartar may also be how Gino's would compensate for Bread Flour.

I found a recipe for Gino's East that is similar to what Pythonic described.
http://www.favfamilyrecipes.com/2009/11/ginos-east-pizza.html

Has anyone in here witnessed dough mixing at Gino's East?
Perhaps we should leave this up to the Gino's East testers in the forum.  :pizza:  8)


VCB,

The person who told me this procedure was describing the Gino's recipe and well as Malnatis.

Here is the given recipe:

1 Cup water
1 package yeast
1/3 cup oil mixture (95% corn, 5% EVOO)
1 T sugar
1 tsp cream of tartar
1 lbs Bread Flour

In a bowl, put water (luke warm), then yeast, oil, cream of tartar, and sugar. Mix with hand until yeast dissolves. Then, pour in Bread Flour a little at a time. Mix with your hand. Just curve your hand like a dough hook and hold the bowl and mix. Then, knead it until it gets firm. Add more flour if needed. Secret is also in the kneading. Knead it for about 10 minutes straight. Then, roll it into a ball, and put it in a bowl with oil brushed in the sides. Cover with plastic wrap and a kitchen towel. let sit overnight unrefrigerated. Only let it rise once. Portion and use.

And, the kind of pan they use is a Tinned Steel pan that is seasoned. And, when you cook it, make sure you put oil in the pan also. Stretch it out in the pan and put a layer of cheese over it. Then, put it in the fridge for about a day. Then, take it out and put another layer of cheese, then sauce, then pecorino romano cheese and oregano.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 11:16:07 PM by pythonic »
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2014, 11:12:44 AM »
Nate, the person who said this to you clearly has no idea what they're talking about and clearly doesn't know much about pizza or baking. I haven't tried bread flour for deep dish, so I can't say from experience that this information is total BS, but I do know enough about both pizza and flour to feel very confident speculating that the information you've been given didn't come from someone who knows anything about pizza. In addition to that stuff, the recipe in your previous post is amateur in too many ways to describe. (I'm sure you figured that out on your own.)

Offline pythonic

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2014, 11:41:44 AM »
Nate, the person who said this to you clearly has no idea what they're talking about and clearly doesn't know much about pizza or baking. I haven't tried bread flour for deep dish, so I can't say from experience that this information is total BS, but I do know enough about both pizza and flour to feel very confident speculating that the information you've been given didn't come from someone who knows anything about pizza. In addition to that stuff, the recipe in your previous post is amateur in too many ways to describe. (I'm sure you figured that out on your own.)

Ryan,

The recipe was for Gino's which is a bready dough.  Malnatis is breadish too.  The only true flaky dough in Chicago is Giordanos.  As VCB said the cream of tardar may change the texture of an over kneaded dough.  I will test and report back.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 11:44:36 AM by pythonic »
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Offline vcb

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2014, 12:26:52 PM »
Are we talking about the same Giordano's, Pythonic?

From my recollection, every Giordano's stuffed pizza that I've ever eaten
has used the same sometimes chewy, often bready, usually shell-like, laminated dough,
which they make much better use of for their thin crust pizzas.

At any rate, even with the lamination, I'd never describe Giordano's as flaky.
It's more like someone took new york pizza dough, folded over the dough a few times, and then smashed the layers together to obliterate any semblance of flakiness, and end up with something one step shy of ceramic shrapnel. (Have I gone too far with this description?  :drool:)

BUT BACK TO THE SUBJECT:

If someone is saying that all deep dish dough is the same, they are clearly talking out of their dough sheeter.
There is a distinct, provable difference between Lou's/Pizzeria Uno and Gino's East.

Look at the labels attached to this post:
(The Spinoccoli photo was taken at a local grocery freezer aisle. the rest were found on the net and modified for viewing)
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2014, 01:41:06 PM »
From my recollection, every Giordano's stuffed pizza that I've ever eaten
has used the same sometimes chewy, often bready, usually shell-like, laminated dough...

I'll try to keep this short, since it is off-topic. Every video I've seen of dough being sheeted at Giordano's shows very clearly that they DO NOT laminate their dough skins, except sometimes incidentally when they sheet two small dough balls (or scrap dough balls) together instead of sheeting one normal-sized dough ball. On the rare occasion that this procedure creates clear lamination in the resulting crust, it is both unintended and minimal. That is, it is nothing remotely like truly laminated crusts. (For truly laminated crusts, see Shakey's, Tommy's, Round Table, fazzari, DNA Dan.) The lamination effect in some pictures I've seen of Giordano's crust is not lamination; it is just something that sorta resembles lamination, and we need to come up with an appropriate term for that effect, because "lamination" is not an appropriate term.

Also, if what I said in my previous post seems like BS, everyone disregard it.


Offline pythonic

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2014, 02:23:27 PM »
Are we talking about the same Giordano's, Pythonic?

From my recollection, every Giordano's stuffed pizza that I've ever eaten
has used the same sometimes chewy, often bready, usually shell-like, laminated dough,
which they make much better use of for their thin crust pizzas.

At any rate, even with the lamination, I'd never describe Giordano's as flaky.
It's more like someone took new york pizza dough, folded over the dough a few times, and then smashed the layers together to obliterate any semblance of flakiness, and end up with something one step shy of ceramic shrapnel. (Have I gone too far with this description?  :drool:)

BUT BACK TO THE SUBJECT:

If someone is saying that all deep dish dough is the same, they are clearly talking out of their dough sheeter.
There is a distinct, provable difference between Lou's/Pizzeria Uno and Gino's East.

Look at the labels attached to this post:
(The Spinoccoli photo was taken at a local grocery freezer aisle. the rest were found on the net and modified for viewing)

Ed,

I love Giordanos crust.  I do not know where those layers are coming from but it makes the pie for me.  I've never had a bready pie before.  Your not confusing dry with bready right?   One of a kind texture (light and flaky) that goes beautifully with their sauce.  I counted 8 layers in my last pizza from them.  I'm taking lamination out of the equation.  I'm thinking the dough is cold when it's sheeted.  I'm also leaning towards milk .

Nate
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 02:35:24 PM by pythonic »
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Offline vcb

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2014, 04:29:27 PM »
slightly off-topic - GIORDANO'S:
I may have misused the term "laminated" when describing Giordano's. I used that term to describe the "layers" present in the dough.
I did not mean to imply that there are alternating layers of oil/butter and dough,
or that someone was sandwiching their dough between hot sheets of plastic to provide protection from the elements,
if anyone was thinking either of those.

When I say bready, I'm typically talking about the ends of the crust (the part that many leave on the plate) that slightly resemble french bread, which can sometimes be a good thing.
Stuffed pizza is my least favorite style of Chicago pizza, so I have primarily eaten Giordano's when co-workers would choose to order delivery from there, and they ordered it a lot.

It's possible that Delivery alters the texture of the crust, but from my experience of eating Giordano's stuffed pizza,
I've noticed that it arrives with crust textures in the variables that I described above.
To my memory, they mostly arrived either with the outer crust being a hard hollow shell, or having a chewy exterior with a bread-like center.

What were we talking about again?
OH YEAH... BREAD FLOUR


If we are able to locate a nutritional breakdown of the ingredients in a Gino's East pizza and then account for variables like sauce and cheese, then we could figure out if they're using a high protein flour, like bread flour.
Or someone could sneak into a Gino's East and snap a photo of the flour bag label.  :chef:
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 09:13:45 AM »
slightly off-topic - GIORDANO'S:
I may have misused the term "laminated" when describing Giordano's. I used that term to describe the "layers" present in the dough.
I did not mean to imply that there are alternating layers of oil/butter and dough,
or that someone was sandwiching their dough between hot sheets of plastic to provide protection from the elements,
if anyone was thinking either of those.

It's cool, Ed. I didn't mean to sound hostile or anything. I've just been thinking lately that we really need to come up with a term to differentiate this effect from actual lamination, I guess because hardcore lamination has become kind of near and dear to me, due to my extensive quest to clone Tommy's pizza. For a long time when Nate has used the term "lamination" in the "Definitive Giordano's" thread, I thought he was being stubborn and insisting that Giordano's dough is laminated, like Shakey's, Tommy's, and Round Table. But in a recent PM from him, I finally realized that he understands Giordano's is not laminated like Shakey's, Tommy's, and Round Table; that he just uses the word "lamination" because it's the best word he can come up with to describe something visually similar to actual laminated crust; that he's trying hard to figure out what lamination really is, and how to spot a truly laminated crust.

So I've been thinking we need to coin a term for this lamination effect, to avoid confusion, but I haven't come up with anything yet. The best I've come up with so far is probably "lamination effect," but I don't think that's the right term, because it could still be confusing just by containing the word "lamination." If y'all want to try to help me come up with a term for this effect, be my guest, but I'm not actually spending much time thinking about it myself.

Also, I never meant to make it seem as if I believe my Giordano's work is the definitive Giordano's information around here. It's just that that thread was active when I started trying to figure out how to clone Giordano's. So I added my thoughts, which snowballed.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Any truth to this statement about BF in deep dish?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 09:20:07 AM »
Also Ed, thanks for posting the picture of the Uno ingredients. I've never really thought about how Uno dough may be different from Malnati's, but now I see that the dough has at least one pretty big difference. Good to know.