Author Topic: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate  (Read 6731 times)

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Offline sum1else

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2011, 02:31:41 PM »
Thanks for the research, Scott. I just prepped some 10" doughs for Sunday. I was able to get my hands on some All Trumps from RD ($20.50/50lb). I can't believe the price-KA is around $6 for 2.2lb at the supermarket. They also had huge cans of DOP tomatoes that I had to buy, they were super cheap.

Flour (100%):    242.31 g  |  8.55 oz | 0.53 lbs
Water (60%):    145.39 g  |  5.13 oz | 0.32 lbs
IDY (.4%):     0.97 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
Salt (2%):            4.85 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Oil (2%):        4.85 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    2.42 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Total (165.4%):   400.79 g | 14.14 oz | 0.88 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:   200.39 g | 7.07 oz | 0.44 lbs

I made 2 batches of dough, each two balls (one for practice stretching, one for baking). I used refrigerator-cold brita filtered NYC water. I added another 4g of water while hand mixing that was not included in the percentages above. As suggested, I kneaded and then immediately split the dough and scaled. They went directly into the fridge. Bowl residue was about 2%.

The first batch was made with only All Trumps. The second batch was a blend of KA Italian and All trumps, using http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to achieve 12.5%. Otherwise the doughs were prepared identically. Of course I'll post notes on sunday.

I also got my oven thermometer and laser thermometer in the mail. I will take some measurements over the weekend for reference. I'm sure it could help a few people who are interested in trying steel plates.

Two weeks ago I rented a car on Hertz Connect just to go satisfy my LB craving. Hertz had a $25 credit promotion on signing up, so I used it to pay for the car ($30/2hrs)  ;D
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 02:36:28 PM by sum1else »


scott123

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2011, 02:55:17 PM »
Tyler, 60% hydration is a little on the low side for a 12.5% blend, but it's really too low for pure All Trumps.  65% is about as low as you want to go with AT. I get the feeling that the 60% hydration AT dough is really going to fight you on the stretch.  The blend should perform fairly well, although I still think you could bump that up a bit as well- to say 62%.

How much kneading are you doing?  What do the dough balls look like when they done? Smooth? A little rough? For cold fermented dough you want dough that's no where near smooth.

That's great news about the IR thermometer. I'm looking forward to getting some readings of the plate.

Offline sum1else

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2011, 03:01:27 PM »
Scott,

The dough just went in the fridge less than an hour ago. Do you think I can knead more water into it (maybe using wet hands)?

edit:  I went ahead and upped the hydration. I pulled the dough out of the fridge, flattened, poured the measured amount of water in the center, and kneaded for a minute until it incorporated fully. The All Trumps dough has 64-65% now. The blend already was at 61.6% because of the 4g water I added during mixing, so I left those dough balls alone.


I did about 5-8 minutes of kneading. The dough balls are not smooth, nor did they want to be smoothed when I tried. Glad I left them how they are.


Tyler

« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 03:25:04 PM by sum1else »

scott123

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2011, 04:12:28 PM »
Tyler, it will be interesting to see what the AT dough does, but, for future reference, I wouldn't recommend adding water to an already refrigerating dough.

Offline sum1else

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2011, 02:31:11 PM »
Now this is what I call progress  :chef:

Recipe as stated a few posts above. 5 minute cook time on the Mixture. 4 minute cook time on the All Trumps. The Mixture dough has only fresh mozz, the All-Trumps dough has half fresh, half deli sliced brick mozz.

The doughs were in the fridge for 40 hours, then 1 hour on the counter before baking. Both types were a pleasure to stretch. The Mixture dough was much tougher after cooking, and didn't fold as nice. The All Trumps dough was foldable and chewy like a pie I can get on the street in the city. It was awesome. After cooling down (half hour), the Mix pie became more foldable, and the All Trumps stayed the same. The AT was lighter, and browned faster.

I would like the dough to have a bit more taste, perhaps i will try EVOO next time instead of Grapeseed Oil, which is neutral tasting. Any other ideas? I'd also like to make it slightly thicker.

Also, the Supremo Italiano DOP tomatoes from Restaurant Depot were not so great.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 02:35:26 PM by sum1else »

scott123

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2011, 07:48:20 PM »
Tyler, I'm finding two developments extremely surprising.  The first is how far you've come, the second is that no one is congratulating you on your tremendous growth. Fortunately, I think you're very much aware of the extent of your victory, so the lack of back patting is really inconsequential.  Besides, when it comes to NY style pizza, there's really only one opinion on this forum that really counts*, so if I say you're kicking ass, you're kicking ass.  ;D

As I was typing the 'don't add water to refrigerating dough' caution, I was thinking to myself "just watch, the AT dough will be better."  And there it was.  I have to admit that the KA Italian is a bit of a wild card, so maybe that's what's messing with the blend.

Evoo, imo, is not suitable for pizza dough.  It's expensive and doesn't bring much flavor to the finished crust.  You get a lot more bang for your buck by adding the evoo on top of the pizza.  If you do want a more flavorful dough, go with a third day of fermentation.  That should give you the robustness you're looking for. Just make sure you adjust the yeast downward to compensate for the additional time.

I'm guessing that you haven't lived in NYC for very long, because, if you did, you wouldn't be considering a thicker crust.  I missed it when you posted the recipe, but .09 is too thick for NY style.  There's no way Salvatore's is .09 or thicker.  Now... if you want to try your hand at a L&B clone, then go as thick as you want (with a Brooklyn Sicilian recipe), but you can't just take a NY pie and go thicker and assume everything's going to be okay.  It messes with too much stuff (oven spring, cheese bubbling, crispness/flop, etc.). It's one thing for a Midwesterner to make a football and try to pass it off as NY style, but I expect more from you  :P

*Blatant attempt to push buttons and get some more participation in this thread  ;D

Offline sum1else

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2011, 08:57:22 PM »
Thanks, Scott. My eyes and mouth definitely told me about the victory. It really did not take long to make a huge improvement with the help of the experts here (mostly you), and countless hours of reading older posts. (and good google search technique)

Remember, I added the water when the dough was in the fridge for like 40-50 minutes. I didn't think it would be that detrimental, and it didn't seem to be. And, my fridge isn't so powerful, so the dough was not super cold then.

Code: [Select]
If you do want a more flavorful dough, go with a third day of fermentation. I will try that this week, and I'll leave out the EVOO as I'm seeing many threads advise.

Guessed wrong about me moving here. I've been here my whole life ;D  I grew up on the three main food groups: chinese, bagels, pizza :-D. Ever since I got my driver's license I've traveled the area looking for great pizzas.

When I said thicker I meant like .10. My dough is coming out super thin... Maybe I am giving too much to the crust or stretching incorrectly, but the bottom is definitely not as thick as most places. I could see through in this last pie. I am not ready for an L&B clone. I want to make it, but its unrealistic for now. I don't know enough about the variations that moisture and yeast make to come up with the formula. If no one else has figured it out yet, I certainly am not. Although, I still think the double-dough is the source of the soft middle layer... If you figure it out, I want to be the first to know. Its so far from me- 1:15 on the subway.


On a side note, I'm really in love with the steel plate. I've used stones before and never seen such a big oven spring.

-T

scott123

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2011, 09:13:02 PM »
A native NYer, huh?  I guess I did guess wrong.  It happens  ;D

For NY you really should almost see through a stretched skin.  If the dough is properly fermented (doubled, not manhandled during forming), it should rise enough to make a decently sized undercrust.  You might want to try pressing out a slightly smaller rim.  With a smaller rim, that leaves more dough for the undercrust.

Yes, steel plate is a quantum leap for the pizzamaker used to commercial baking stones.  High talc soapstone (the kind I work with) is the exact same way.   One day you're making truly mediocre pies wondering why they're so bready and lifeless, and the next it's like "steel/soapstone, where have you BEEN all my life?"

buceriasdon

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2011, 07:21:05 AM »
Tyler, Studying your photos, which look good, nice job, Scott nailed it, you have left too much dough in your rim. Try using your finger tips to define the rim a bit more before stretching the skin over your knuckles. It will come to you.
Don



For NY you really should almost see through a stretched skin.  If the dough is properly fermented (doubled, not manhandled during forming), it should rise enough to make a decently sized undercrust.  You might want to try pressing out a slightly smaller rim.  With a smaller rim, that leaves more dough for the undercrust.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 08:50:09 PM »
I am very impressed and you have come a long way!Nice work!
 :chef:

Scott has been telling me to get a steel plate for so long now,and I keep putting it off.I will keep watching for threads like this until I order something.

Also,watch out for the addiction to come.You might find yourself making so many new pies just to see if you can do it better next time.I gained 25-30 lbs in a year from doing that.Kept trying to many different things,recipes and styles.Did not post them all here,but a ton of them were done for trial and error.

Well,the real reason for the weight gain,was I was making pies late at night when everyone went to bed,and when you eat after a certain time and go to sleep,you store it as fat.I didnt eat that much,but a slice or 3 at a time will go to the waist if you eat just before bedtime.
 :-D

I have since stopped doing that and I have lost nearly 15 lbs.Sorry to go way off subject!
Pizza making can be alot of fun and very addicting.

 ;D

-Bill


Offline johnamus

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2011, 09:14:35 PM »
Thanks for posting your results with the steel; I've been following both your threads while eagerly awaiting my own steel plate to be cut.  Are you planning to try any gentle oven mods to lower your bake time or are you content with your current (good looking) pies?  I'm curious to see how a steel-plate + oven mod combo will work for you.

Offline sum1else

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2011, 10:37:11 PM »
Thanks to you both. Hopefully I won't gain any weight, chickenparm (what an awesome user name, who doesn't love chicken parm?). The fact that my plate is only 12" will help keep that calorie count down. Although, this 50lb bag of flour does need to be consumed..

Johnamus, I am currently running with +35F calibration on my oven. I am going to try a foil ball over the probe during the broil cycle as suggested by Scott, maybe this Friday. This is necessary because my oven keeps shutting the broiler on me. I don't know of any other gentle oven mods. If they are indeed "gentle," then I'd love to try them. I wish I owned the oven so that I could tinker with it--I think the probe resistance hacks are very cool.

Offline sum1else

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2011, 06:12:39 PM »
Today's pie was made after a 5-day cold ferment. It did not have much oven spring. I'm guessing I left it in the fridge too long. No oil, no sugar. It tasted great!

I was able to make Scott123's foil on the probe trick work, so the broiler stayed lit today for the entire bake (4 minutes) for the first time. Awesome.

In other news, I was given a bit of camadoli starter in a jar. I have it properly fed and its looking nice and bubbly. Any tips, Scott123?


Offline chickenparm

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2011, 06:51:50 PM »
Thats making me HUNGRY! Nice work!Love the color of the rim too!
 8)

-Bill

scott123

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2011, 02:36:04 AM »
Tyler, this forum has quite a few members who believe in pretty large windows of dough viability.  I'm not one of those members  ;D When Reinhart, in a pizza recipe, says something along the lines of "use between 1 and 4 days," it, along with his many other idiotic remarks, gets me pondering what form my hostility will take when I finally get around to meeting the man.  Don't get me wrong, it's not like having to run home because you're hitting a couple hour window when your banana is perfectly ripe, but I firmly believe that a dough that's perfect one day will not be perfect the next.

That being said, your pizza looks great  ;D

Great news about the foil trick.  Not many people have protruding probes, so it won't work for everyone, but it's still good to know that it will be a viable way for some to get a couple more degrees out of their oven.   When you get a chance, could you get a shot of the foil envelope you made?

And, speaking of photos, next time, can we get an upskirt? You used the foil trick with 500 and the 35 calibration, right?  I'm thinking you're reading to use it at 525, but wanted to make sure you're not getting too much color on the undercrust.

I normally try to dissuade beginning NY style pizzamakers from working with starters because they complicate fermentation and are outside of the core NY pizzamaking canon.  At this point, though, I'm not sure I'd classify you as a beginner, so if you want to give it a shot, go for it.  I've studied sourdough chemistry, but have never worked with sourdoughs personally, so if you need some guidance, I'd start a new thread and see if one of the experts can help you.

Offline sum1else

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2011, 10:31:33 AM »

Thanks for the nice words Scott and Chickenparm. Five days was definitely too long for me. I don't know if the lack of sugar had something to do with it. I used a ball of that dough on the third day and it was much much better. Anyway, I have attached an upskirt. It was too blurry so I omitted it, but you can see the coloring from this photo. It does look dark, but the dough was still very foldable, and the bottom didn't crack when I folded it.

I've also included a photo of my foil probe-I formed it loosely around a wooden tool. I did some dry runs and found that it was very difficult to get on without fidgeting, unless the center hole was quite large. There are two or three tight layers forming the center, and then another two "puffed" layers. To insert it I put on my best oven mitt and a tight fitting sweatshirt, before the broiler is launched of course. (Disclaimer: No one should ever be as stupid as I am and stick their arm in a hot oven)

I have the +35 calibration, and I've double checked it because of these weird results: Set at 340, I get 375 after a half hour (for cookies). If I set the oven at 500, my thermometer reads 535 after 45 minutes. If I set it at 525, I get 550. If I set it at 550, I only get 550-even after waiting until the 65 or 70 minute mark  ???. It seems the oven just does not have the power to get the air temperature any hotter--I could add some mass in there, but that would increase preheat time. At the 45 minute mark, the plate is anywhere between 540 and 570. At 1 hour the plate is usually >600, and I pop my pizza in then. Yesterday the oven was set to 550.

I'm going to mess with this sourdough a bit. Most of the threads say to just experiment, which is fine for me. At 3am I mixed something up because I couldn't sleep. If it works, I'll post it. I'll probably end up using the sourdough more for breads.

scott123

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2011, 11:02:14 AM »
Thanks for the photos. Even with the blurriness, I can tell that it's a nice looking/well colored undercrust.  I think, even with the weird oven behavior, you're in good shape with the pre-heat temp/mod.   I guess you could try the foil pouch mod a little earlier- during the pre-heat, but I'm not sure you'll need it.  As you get into more toppings, the bake time will expand, which might require a little more umph from the hearth, but, as long as you stick to a traditional sparce/few NY topping aesthetic, you should be fine.

Offline sum1else

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2011, 12:54:18 PM »
Check this out. Its nontraditional, but came out pretty good. The Sourdough is a Camaldoli, based on KABF and filtered water, 100% hydration. I used 20% sourdough, for a 10 hour counter top rise. The flour was Caputo-I've never tried it for anything but pasta, and probably won't again (in this oven). The end crust was crunchy but a bit tough. Under the sauce and cheese was perfect. The flavor was great.

I kneaded for about 8 minutes. It made a nice windowpane at that time. The dough felt better than anything I've ever worked with. I didn't really make a crust; I pushed down the whole dough. Baked in 3:30.

Final Dough:
Caputo 00 Flour:           119.92 g | 4.23 oz | 0.26 lbs
Water:     66.62 g | 2.35 oz | 0.15 lbs
Salt:   2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Preferment:     26.65 g | 0.94 oz | 0.06 lbs
Grapeseed Oil:   4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Total:          219.85 g | 7.75 oz | 0.48 lbs  | TF = 0.0816


Offline sum1else

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2011, 08:46:33 PM »
I made another pie with my starter for dinner. The starter is 100% hydration and has been changed over to KA AP flour. The balance of the flour was All Trumps. This was an 11.5" pie with  63% hydration, 2% oil, 20% preferment. Counter rise at room temperature (around 65F) for 8 hours. Then 30 hours in the fridge (43F). Took it out and let it rise as a ball for 2 hours, and then I formed the skin as the oven warmed up (1 hour).

Flour:        129.5 g | 4.57 oz | 0.29 lbs
Water:         76.26 g | 2.69 oz | 0.17 lbs
Salt:                   2.88 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Preferment:     28.78 g | 1.02 oz | 0.06 lbs
Oil:                    2.88 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total:          240.29 g | 8.48 oz | 0.53 lbs  | TF = 0.0816

I preheated at 525 for an hour and then lit the broiler, using the foil trick. For some reason the broiler wouldn't stay lit, so I had to open the oven a few times while the pie was cooking. I baked this pie for 6.5 minutes, much longer than usual, because I wanted to get some great browning (and perhaps some blackening). The pie tasted great (similar to John's), but unfortunately, it was overcooked.

The sauce was too dry, this is easy to remedy by draining less water.
The cheese was good, because I used it right from the fridge with no warm up time (brick mozz from the supermarket).
The crust tasted great but was too dry and crunchy (see photo). This was my problem. Assuming I liked the 6.5 minute cook time (for browning), how can I make my dough hold up longer? Is it more water, lower temperature, or both? I want it to be more floppy--In between what I am getting and a street pizza--like the coal places.


Tyler
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 09:43:56 PM by sum1else »

Offline chickenparm

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Re: First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2011, 10:50:52 PM »
Tyler,

That pie looks GREAT! I know it may not have been what you wanted,but its another pie to learn from as well.That said,it looks salivating!
 8)

I have a few ideas to share,if you want a floppier crust end,but also folds nicely when you need it to.

I believe it is sometimes the size of the pie you are trying to make.11.5 is very small,and may not have enough mass to flop over when cut into slices when making a NY stylish type of pie.In my experience,at least a 14 inch sized pie can be crispy,floppy tip, with a foldable slice.One can make it smaller,with flop,but I have not had much success with the smaller pies.

Cut the bake time to 4 minutes or no more than 5.Do not worry about browning yet,see if this still makes a floppy crust and is cooked,even if lighter in color.The longer bake time can create a much crispier finish,which is what you did not want to make,but is still so good to eat!

Yet try to see what the shorter bake time makes.The worst that can happen,if the pie does not seem baked long enough after doing so,you can always cut up slices and reheat them for 30 seconds or so to finish them up more.

If the browning is important to you,add sugar to the dough,say around 2%.That helps the browning of the crust,but do be sure to use a shorter bake time to see how cooked the crust is without the sugar aided color at first.

You want to learn what the dough recipe you are using,and crust will turn out to be, during a certain bake time before adding sugar or being concerned for browning issues.It took me a while to realize I needed to do the same thing.The only way to know is to do experiments and you are doing so right now.


Here is a link to one of my 14 inch NY style pie baked on the 15 inch stone in my oven.I forget the bake times,but it is under 8 minutes.It was a bit too dark or charred but was still a good pie.It had oil and sugar in the dough as well.

http://s1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff479/BillsPizza86/Loving%20the%20NY%20style/











-Bill


 

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