First try at NYC with 1/2" Steel Plate

[Essen1]

I made another pie with my starter for dinner. The starter is 100% hydration and has been changed over to KA AP flour. The balance of the flour was All Trumps. This was an 11.5" pie with  63% hydration, 2% oil, 20% preferment. Counter rise at room temperature (around 65F) for 8 hours. Then 30 hours in the fridge (43F). Took it out and let it rise as a ball for 2 hours, and then I formed the skin as the oven warmed up (1 hour).

Flour:        129.5 g | 4.57 oz | 0.29 lbs
Water:         76.26 g | 2.69 oz | 0.17 lbs
Salt:                   2.88 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Preferment:     28.78 g | 1.02 oz | 0.06 lbs
Oil:                    2.88 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total:          240.29 g | 8.48 oz | 0.53 lbs  | TF = 0.0816

I preheated at 525 for an hour and then lit the broiler, using the foil trick. For some reason the broiler wouldn't stay lit, so I had to open the oven a few times while the pie was cooking. I baked this pie for 6.5 minutes, much longer than usual, because I wanted to get some great browning (and perhaps some blackening). The pie tasted great (similar to John's), but unfortunately, it was overcooked.

The sauce was too dry, this is easy to remedy by draining less water.
The cheese was good, because I used it right from the fridge with no warm up time (brick mozz from the supermarket).
The crust tasted great but was too dry and crunchy (see photo). This was my problem. Assuming I liked the 6.5 minute cook time (for browning), how can I make my dough hold up longer? Is it more water, lower temperature, or both? I want it to be more floppy--In between what I am getting and a street pizza--like the coal places.


Tyler

Tyler,

My suggestion is to increase the hydration to 65%, lower the oil amount down to 1.5%, which would give you an actual hydration of 66.5% since oil does count against the hydration value.

Regarding on how you could make your dough hold up longer...more water. The longer the bake time the more water evaporates, so if you have a hydration of let's say 62%-63% I'd recommend a bake time of about 4-6 mins on a steel plate at a temp of at least 600°-625°F in a home oven.

If your oven can't reach that temp and you're forced to use a lower temp, which in turn would also increase the baking time, you'd need to increase the hydration.

[scott123]

Tyler, we've talked about this before- you can't go below 65% with All Trumps.

I am no sourdough expert, but, even at a 6.5 minute bake, a 63% hydration All Trump dough shouldn't be that dry.  I can only surmise that the acid from the starter might be further developing an already high amount of gluten. I do know, for a fact, that if browning is your goal, you're shooting yourself in the foot by adding acid in the form of sourdough, because of it's anti-browning effects. If you're struggling with browning and are pushing the heat as high as your oven can go, you don't want to add a browning inhibitor like acid, but a browning accelerator such as sugar.

Refresh my memory on your kneading technique.  Earlier, you had mentioned 'windowpaning' the Caputo dough.  You're definitely not windowpaning the All Trumps, right? If you are, that could be another part of the problem. All Trumps doughs should never be kneaded until smooth, especially if they are to be fermented overnight. You want to knead it to a point where it looks like cottage cheese.

The next time you do the foil trick, could you take a few temp readings?  Basically most ovens cycle within about 25 degrees of what's set on the dial.  If you have it set at 525 with a 35 degree calibration, then that could mean that the oven is cycling between 535 and and 585. When it comes time to turn the broiler on, it might be while the oven is a bit cooler and, in turn, you get a bit more broiler time, or when it's a bit hotter, and you get less and the broiler cuts out mid bake.

The most important aspect to the foil pouch is that the air pockets have to be big.  Is there any chance, between the first time and the second time you used it, that it might have collapsed a bit? Next time, try freezing the foil pouch, and, also, if you have any more space around the probe, go thicker with the pouch.

Aluminum is pretty conductive, so we might have to go with something with a bit less conductivity, but I wanted to try aluminum foil first, since that's the simplest.

Something's been bugging me.  For the temperatures that you've been showing in your experiments, your plate is just not acting like a 1/2" plate.  I've seen the photos and it certainly looks like it's 1/2", but, just for the heck of it, could you measure it to confirm this?  It's acting a little like a 3/8" plate.

I've been holding off on this, but I think you might want to start considering lifting the plate and/or the shelf the plate is on a bit higher, to increase the broiler impact, because, even with the broiler on for the whole time, you're not getting a lot of color on the top of the pizza.

[sum1else]

Thanks all for the comments. I am stuck making 11.5" pies because my steel is only 12" square. Chickenparm, that pie looked perfect.

Scott,

you can't go below 65% with All Trumps.

I realize I messed up with the 63%, I don't know where my mind was when I went to the calculator. I'll fix that in the next pie. Is there an upper limit to the hydration here?

All Trumps doughs should never be kneaded until smooth, especially if they are to be fermented overnight. You want to knead it to a point where it looks like cottage cheese.

I guess I am overkneading    I'll work less on my next dough. I definitely kneaded until smooth (like pasta dough smooth). Cottage cheese consistency sounds like only a minute or two of kneading-Would you agree?
 
As to the browning-I see what you are saying regarding the sugar and acid levels. I'd love to get a bit of black burnt crust, but that's not happening in this oven. I will definitely take some temperature readings on the next foil trick. I'll also re build the pouch. I don't have much extra space to make it any bigger. I did measure the plate and it sure is 1/2". Regardless of setting my oven at 525 or 550 (with the+35 calibration), the analog thermometer I have shows that the air temperature never gets past 550. The oven is just venting way too much heat. Its a shame I can't get the oven to stay on constantly-The oven beeps that its hit temperature and starts 20-ish minutes before the plate hits 600.

What other materials have you considered?

I am going to hold off on lifting the plate for the time being..There is so little clearance to begin with. I've got just under three inches between the top of the plate and the shielding on the broiler. .

[chickenparm]

Tyler,
I just wanted to ask,does your oven vent any heat under one of the burners on top of the stove?

My electric oven has an exhaust pipe that vents heat up to exit under the rear burner element on top of the stove.I had to block it off with foil squashed up and shoved into it.

I was not sure if your oven had one.If it does,you can block it off to keep the heat inside from escaping too quickly.
 

[scott123]

Tyler, I think you got the 63% from me.  That's what I recommend for 12.5% protein flours/blends.  Speaking of which, I know the last blend attempt didn't pan out all that well, and you probably still have KA Italian/Caputo to use up and don't want to buy even more flour, but I'd still like to see you, at some point, give an All Trumps/All purpose 50/50 blend a shot.

It takes some time to fully understand all the ins and outs of gluten development.  Many breadmakers tend to be windowpaning-centric, which tends to instill the always windowpane philosophy in others. For emergency/quickly fermented, and, to a point, same day doughs, windowpaning is a good idea, but not for overnight.   Time = gluten development, so an overnight ferment is a kneading equivalent and most be compensated for at the beginning.

I hand knead relatively aggressively, but, for me, 2.5 minutes total mix/knead time gives me a cottage cheese appearance.

100% All Trumps doughs definitely have an upper limit to how much water you can use.  In my experience, as the hydration went up, assuming you could increase the heat accordingly, so too went the oven spring, but... the crumb would have a tendency to be leathery.  With your inability to go that much higher with the heat, I don't think you want to go a spec above 65%.  Water takes lots of energy to boil. The more water you have in the dough, the more heat you need to hit a target bake time.  The energy in your system, until we get a better mod, is relatively static.

With your protruding probe, you have a few more options than the people with clipped probes.

Here's one approach using moistened cake strips

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13018.msg128228.html#msg128228

You can also trim down/hollow out an insulating firebrick or take perlite/refractory and cast your own insulating firebrick sleeve.

You might also get away with wood.  Take a 1x1 and drill a hole down the middle. Soak it in water prior to using and cover with foil to deflect the heat.

https://www.google.com/search?q=oven+insulation&hl=en&safe=off&sa=G&tbs=p_ord:p&tbm=shop&ei=OXDkTuzjFcfQrQfInLWpCA&ved=0CAsQuw0oAQ

It's difficult to tell how large the $2 strip of oven insulation is, but you might be able to tuck this in foil and cover the probe with it.

Lastly, there's always the frozen towel trick.  Find something with the same shape as your probe, such as a pencil or a dowel. Rap a moist towel around it, cover it with foil and freeze. Once frozen, remove the object. When it comes time to bake the pizza, slip it over the probe.

Frozen towels can you get 100 to 150 degrees above peak, but that doesn't do much for you, because as you go up that much higher, the bottom will burn before the top.  The frozen towel would definitely work to make sure the broiler stays on, though. Rather than freezing the towel, you might be able to fold a moist towel into an aluminum foil pocket and keep your broiler on.

[sum1else]

If it does,you can block it off to keep the heat inside from escaping too quickly.

My oven vents from the back of the unit, where the buttons are. Its a huge area (the entire width) that I don't think I can block off.

Scott, as always, thanks for the help and your particular attention to detail. I have plenty of flour at all times anyway. I have All Purpose flour here--I use it for cookies (either Gold Medal or KA, depending on which supermarket I visit). I use the KA Ital and Caputo for pastas. For the 50/50 AP/AT blend, how much water do you suggest?

Regarding knead time, I generally only make dough for one or two pies at a time. I would assume that smaller batch means shorter knead time?

Unfortunately its hard for me to build anything custom (firebrick/wood). Living in the city, I have no room for tools. I'll think about who/how I can get something fabricated. The Cake Strips look pretty good too, I may have to explore that first. My January vacation should produce a whole lot of pizza.


Tyler

[scott123]

Tyler, 63% hydration is a pretty good jumping off for the AT/AP blend.

The size of the batch doesn't really impact knead time all that much. The goal should really be more appearance related than time.  Besides, if you are going with the blend, that will remove any major kneading concerns- knead the 100% AT overnight fermented dough to a cottage cheese appearance and the blend to somewhere between cottage cheese and smooth. If you overdo it and take the blend to smooth, it's not a huge deal.  12.5% protein is very forgiving. 14%, not so much.

The cake strips are aluminized, but I don't think that makes them that much more heat resistant than fabric.  It's the water that prevents them from burning, not the fabric.  I would just take regular cotton and make a foil covered pocket from that.  Ideally, if you could form the pocket so that you've got an inner layer of foil and an outer layer, with the fabric in between, preventing the two layers from contacting, that would be best, because the foil, if continuous, will just conduct the heat from outside to in.

[sum1else]

I'm back from a few weeks without [good] pizza, and I've been going crazy. John's this past friday. Dean's last night. Lucali is planned for tomorrow. Today, I cooked my own.

I've made two changes that Scott has suggested through the past weeks. The first is that I raised my plate by 1/4 inch toward the broiler. The second is that I made my own "cake strip" pouch for my temperature probe. I stitched the strip together and soaked it in water, then froze it around a spoon handle.

All Trumps Flour (100%):    156.95 g  |  5.54 oz | 0.35 lbs
Brita Water (65%):    102.02 g  |  3.6 oz | 0.22 lbs
IDY (.3%):    0.47 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Salt (2%):    3.14 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.56 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
Grapeseed Oil (2%):    3.14 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.7 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Sugar (1.25%):    1.96 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Total (170.55%):   267.67 g | 9.44 oz | 0.59 lbs | TF = 0.0909  11.5" diameter

I used Lioni brand fresh mozz from whole foods, and DOP tomatoes.

I used cold water and kneaded only for about 2 minutes. It was not very smooth, which was my goal. I let it rest on the counter covered for 22 hours, then punched down. 2 hours later I shaped the skin, and let it rise for an hour on my peel.

I fired the oven to 550 (+35 calibration, although the oven does not really pass 550). After 45 minutes I measured the stone surface at 605. I then put my cake strip pouch over the temperature probe and lit the broiler. It stayed on no problem. The pie cooked in 3:30. I missed launching the pie on to the plate and a portion of it was hanging over, resulting in the pie getting stretched out of shape. I spent about 30 seconds trying to fix it, letting out a ton of heat. This pie was awesome in every way. I got a great burnt spot on the rear portion of the pie. I'm very happy with this pie, and I'll continue using these baking methods. I still need to try an AP flour blend.

[chickenparm]

That pie looks soo good!
 

We need a drool smiley face.
 

[TXCraig1]

Great looking pie, Tyler!

CL

[parallei]

Nice work Tyler.   I need to try insulating the temp probe in my oven.

[sum1else]

Thanks all.

It's a bit scary putting the probe on. I really don't like doing it, but it works.

[scott123]

Tyler, a few belated observations.

First of, really nice job.  Definitely a pizza to be proud of.

I'm not a huge proponent of punch downs/re-balls for pizza, but the technique has it's fans. If you feel like you do want to incorporate a punch down, make sure you do it at least 5 hours prior to the stretch or it could make the dough difficult to work with and/or give you a tough crumb.

I know I'm never going to talk you out of using fresh mozzarella but could you at least, one of these times, try a smaller thickness factor with a smaller rim?  Imo, that's where NY style really shines.

Lastly, I think the lighting is messing with your color balance.  For some reason, some of your earlier shots have much warmer reds. Is this an incandescent vs. fluorescent thing?

Really nice job.  At this point, you should be going to your favorite places and start noticing aspects of their pies that aren't as good as your own.

[sum1else]

Thanks, Scott.

I didn't want to do the punch down, but I used too much yeast and was away all day, so I couldn't control the rise by refrigeration. I have used some 'regular' mozz actually, I guess I didn't photograph that pie. I've been trying a smaller rim, but I guess I just don't know how small to go. Also, what thickness factor would you like to see on my next pie?

I'm not sure how my photos changed. I always use my iphone in the same room with the same exact lights. I could have taken some photos in the kitchen, and some in the den-I'm not sure. I'll have to look into this more.

you should be going to your favorite places and start noticing aspects of their pies that aren't as good as your own.

I have been. John's was especially disappointing when I realized how bad their crust has become in the last few years (64th st location). I guess ignorance is bliss.