Author Topic: Marco's Sourdough Pizza  (Read 27982 times)

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Online scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2005, 02:33:35 PM »
Bill, thanks for the compliment, and please keep us posted on the sourness/flavor of the two starters compared to each other.  I thought Marco was saying that the Ischia was less sour, but I think he is using some kind of translation software that could mess things up. 

Also, could you post some pics with a description of how the Santos works sometime.  I really want to know more about these fork mixers, but everybody in the pizza business I ask has no idea what they are.


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2005, 06:41:42 PM »
Also, could you post some pics with a description of how the Santos works sometime.  I really want to know more about these fork mixers, but everybody in the pizza business I ask has no idea what they are.

Scott,

Alas, the Santos is backorded until the end of the month. I can't wait to try it out on my standard bread and pizza recipes to see what kind of difference it makes. Most bakeries I've seen in here in the U.S. seem enamored with Hobart-type mixers. One thing for sure: the action of the dough in fork mixers is very different which I have to believe will lead to difference results. Will it be better? We'll see. I'll post photos as soon as I get my grubby hands on my new mixer.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 06:58:39 PM by Bill/SFNM »

Online scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2005, 01:56:41 AM »
I tried a 15 minute knead with the caputo, and the crust was exactly the same as the long knead.  I guess I will try a 5 minute next.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2005, 11:22:16 AM »
The Ischia is more "acid-lactic" tasting then the Camaldoli. The Camaldoli, at the same level of activity, is far more quicker and produce a more "mild" taste, as far as you do not let it go for too long, otherwise the dough actually turn bitter.

I am not using a translator software. My mother tongue is Italian, but I remember to have never said that the Ischia was less sour.

Ciao

Online scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2005, 01:02:51 PM »
Marco, thanks for clearing up my confusion.  Your English is excellent, I just thought I  remembered reading some posts where you said that the translation software for the site was incorrect.

When you say a starter is quick, you mean that a dough made with it will be properly fermented sooner, right?   Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I just want to make sure.  I have found your recipe with the ischia starter to be perfect at 24 hours if I keep the dough somewhat cool.  Could you give me a rough idea what to expect with the camaldoli?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 01:19:41 PM by scott r »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2005, 01:19:07 PM »
I mean that it rises sooner and however you will need to aim for at least 12 hours to have good results using a Crisceto.

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2005, 07:36:03 PM »
How do I really know my Camaldoli is the same as yours? I had to wash mine after an initial contamination. What developed after the washing and much dilution of the original mix has a wonderful taste, but can I really be sure what it is? Maybe it contains microbes from the air or the flour or just a fortuitous combination of who knows what that makes great pizza. Perhaps we are comparing apples and oranges when we try to compare our experiences with these starters. I just don't know, but I sure do love what I call Camaldoli.


Online scott r

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2005, 11:10:31 AM »
Many times my schedule makes it hard to do the cutting/reshaping phase of Marco's recipe, and I would love to skip this step.  I am wondering if anyone knows why it is important to do this second stage of fermentation in individual balls.  I was assuming that this step gave the gluten time to relax before shaping.  Yesterday a batch of dough  I made went untouched for 24 hours in until I used it.  I was very gentle with the dough when I pinched it off so that I would not tighten the gluten. If anything, I figured that just the part that was pinched would suffer.  The dough did turn out different everywhere on the pizza.  It seemed harder to shape, and tougher than my last five or so batches.  I am just wondering if this is a normal outcome?  I know some batches just turn out better than others, so I don't want to base an opinion on bad luck.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2005, 06:52:25 PM »
Marco,

Today I am working on Neapolitan dough using the Santos mixer. I haven't been able to use your formula in the past since my mixer preferred a much wetter dough. So today with the Santos I was finally able to use something closer to your formula: 61% water, 2.7% salt, and 5% Camaldoli starter (I know you use less than 2% starter, but I am still not that confident). The dough was MUCH stiffer than I am used to, so I a thinking that  perhaps I over-kneaded it, but won;t know for sure until I bake it tomorrow. I went back to the archives and my notes and wonder if this is the correct kneading regimen:

1 minute mix
20 minute rest
10 minute mix
5 minute rest
20 minute riposo
1 turn of the dough around the mixer

I would be most grateful for any tips you could give me about kneading, especially what cues you look for to determine if you have added enough flour and how you know the dough has been sufficiently kneaded. Thank you very much.

Bill/SFNM



Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2005, 08:32:58 AM »
Bill

You should never stop and mix again all the times you did unless you are doing a "pizza romana dough".

The mixing should be continuous and only when the dough comes together, there will be the 15-20 mins riposo and then 1 last complete bowl turn.

The quantities I gave in the past where only indicative. If you are already used to a wetter dough (with Caputo flour, as well as 61% hydration with a strong American flour is not the same as 61% with the Caputo)), then there is no point to go stiffer.
My preferred dough is between x hydration, but bare in mind that I don't measure the flour usually. At times I measure an amount of flour, then I used as much as I like to reach my dough point, and then I measure the one left to know how much I have use from it.
One more point to consider is the water you are using. I used filtered (by Brita's filter) tap water, which is quite soft. An harder water will require less flour.

It is very difficult to explain  how to recognize my dough point. I just happen to know by experience. I could tell you that when the dough start coming away from the side of the bowl, but still stick to the bottom, that is a good sign.

Trust me , I am not trying to play games. Just think that after 7 months I was trying to explain my dough criteria to one of your countryman, I had to fly there and show it to him to finally understand each other.


Ciao
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 07:14:43 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2005, 08:46:47 AM »
Marco,

Thank you for the informative reply. I am using Caputo 00 pizzeria flour and also filtered water. It has been my experience that the wetter the dough, the better the final texture, but often such a wet, sticky dough is difficult to handle without plenty of bench four and even then, loading into the oven can have tragic results. What I will do is to steadily increase the hydration until I find something optimum.

I understand exactly the difficulty of explaining a skill that is gained by years of experience. I have been baking baguettes for many years and know how much flour to add and when the dough is fully kneaded by feel, not measurement. Hopefully I can obtain this level of skill over time with pizza.

Mil grazie.

Bill/SFNM


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2005, 05:15:33 PM »
As I mentioned over in the Santos mixer thread: "I baked a pizza today using dough mixed in the Santos fork mixer. Absolutely no question this was the best pizza I have ever made. But I think some or much of the credit may go to factors other than the mixer. " Here are some thoughts:

1. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I used ratios close to those Marco recommends which resulted in a dough much drier than I am used to. I was afraid I might have overkneaded the dough or that it would be too dry. But after fermenting and proofing, the dough was supple and easy to work with. After baking, it had the most marvelous texture: puffy, soft, and crispy, tender. I'll probably add more water next time just because I can't leave well enough alone. But I doubt I could get a better texture. I would never have been able to get this texture in my KA Artisan.

2. I mixed up the dough the day before yesterday and had planned to bake yesterday, but a scheduling conflict caused me to postpone baking until today resulting in the dough retarding in the refrigerator for about 34 hours. The flavor from the Camaldoli starter was a little more tangy and much more interesting than before. The color of the pizza was more golden which I ascribe to the increased fermentation time. 

3. Another factor in the success of this pizza falls under the category of "fire management". Those of you with wood burning ovens appreciate that even if all of the factors are perfect, poor fire management can ruin the result and how hard it can be to have the fire perfect when you are ready to start baking. For some reason (perhaps all of the time I spent at A16 watching the process), today's fire was perfect with plenty of radiant heat from the flames curving down from the dome to evenly cook the whole pizza quickly.

Anyway, I have so much experimenting to do, but I think I have never been closer to my quest for the perfect Neapolitan pizza. 

Bill/SFNM

Offline Randy

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2005, 06:26:45 PM »
The new mixerhas a great beginning and just like it would make a perfect dough.  Interesting your comment about fire management, it is absolute key to great barbecue.  I was wondering if you have tried real charcoal for the coal bed.  It would get you started faster then lay your wood on top of that.

Randy

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Marco's Sourdough Pizza
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2005, 07:43:50 PM »
I was wondering if you have tried real charcoal for the coal bed.  It would get you started faster then lay your wood on top of that.

Randy,
I have a big pile of pecan and oak logs I use for my offset BBQ pit, so I also use those in the brick oven. A big propane cactus burner gets the wood started. I do use lump charcoal in my grill.

Bill/SFNM