Author Topic: still looking for that "flexible" dough  (Read 3109 times)

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Offline finfan

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still looking for that "flexible" dough
« on: November 23, 2011, 07:06:20 PM »
Hey guys
I'm very new to this forum but have already learned a lot from reading other people's posts.
Every video I watch shows a very flexible, very stretchable dough that almost seems to flow into a 14" pizza circle effortlessly. My latest attempt has yielded a more stretchable dough than in the past but its still not like I think it should be. My dough always wants to shrink back and not hold the stretch. I've begun using Caputo 00 pizzeria flour and that has helped (along with an excellent flavor). I hope someone can guide me in the right direction. My dough recipe is below:

500g. Caputo 00 flour
325 g. Water
3 g. active dry yeast
10 g. kosher salt

I mix this for approx. 10 minutes in a bread machine, then turn out onto a floured board and gather into a ball, then cover with a damp towel to rise for 2 hours till doubled in bulk. Next I punch down and separate into (3) 280g. dough balls and lightly dust with flour, again covering with a damp towel. After an hour for resting, the dough is ready for use. As I said, the dough has excellent flavor; its just the stretchiness I am looking for. Thanks for this forum and thanks in advance for any help.


Offline scott123

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2011, 07:17:38 PM »
Linwood, after balling pizza dough, you generally want to wait at least 3 hours before stretching or it will lack extensibility and fight you on the stretch.

Offline finfan

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 07:38:15 PM »
Thanks Scott for that information. I do have another dough ball from the recipe that has been sitting for about 2 hours, and I will see how it performs after another hour or so. Do you see anything amiss with the recipe though? Would it help to use some King Arthur bread flour in the mix along with the caputo maybe?  Thanks again.

Offline scott123

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2011, 05:14:27 AM »
Linwood, it all depends on your desired style and oven setup.  If you're striving for a Neapolitan pizza and have an oven that can bake a pizza in under 90 seconds, then that recipe is just about right- maybe just a little bit too much water. I'd try 300 g. water.

If, on the other hand, you're goal is NY style pizza and you're baking your pizza longer than 2 minutes, then you're working with the wrong flour completely. When baked longer than 2 minutes Caputo Pizzeria flour doughs can be leathery.

King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) is better than Caputo for NY style, but it's still not ideal. If your goal is the perfect NY style pizza, then you'll want real pizzeria flour.  Are you a member of Sam's Club or do you know someone who is?  They carry a good high gluten flour.  Bova Foods in Chalfont carries All Trumps flour. They also carry the best cheese for pizza, Grande mozzarella.

http://www.bovafoods.com/Flour-10.html

There's also Genoa Foods up near Wilkes-Barre, but that's probably too far for you to travel.

Offline finfan

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2011, 10:57:33 AM »
Thanks Scott
 At 500 degrees, my kitchen oven bakes the pizza in about 4 minutes. I checked the Bovafoods website you mentioned and I am going on a road trip probably Monday since that place is only about 40 minutes away. I'll pick up some Grande mozzarella and All Trumps flour. I assume from your posts that I should be looking for a high-gluten flour for stretchability?

Offline finfan

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2011, 11:08:44 AM »
Scott
 What about the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour? There is a retail outlet even closer to me that sells that in 5-pound bags, along with the All Trumps hi-gluten in 5-pound bags. (I am hesitant of buying a 50 pound bag of flour until I get this recipe nailed).  :-\
 If given a choice, which would you go with and would you use that flour exclusively or mix in some Caputo with it? Again, I just want a thin-crust, easily stretchable pizza dough. Thanks again

Offline scott123

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2011, 11:30:28 AM »
Linwood, King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL), is not ideal for thin crust pizza (better for bagels). Although it's in a similar realm protein-wise as All Trumps, the All Trumps is bromated and bromate is a volume enhancer, making it easier to get puffy crusts.

The All Trumps has a little too much protein, though, so it's best to blend it with a lower protein flour- not the Caputo, but something like all purpose.  Ideally, for this style, you should be looking for a mid range protein bromated flour like King Midas Special, Full Strength or Spring King, but those tend to be a lot harder to find than All Trumps.

Just about any flour can make a dough that's easily stretchable.  With a nice long proof after balling, you should have no problem stretching the dough. In fact, for a thin crust pizza, you really shouldn't be doing any kind of bulk ferment.  Just make the dough, knead it, ball it, let it ferment until doubled in volume (ideally overnight in the fridge), let it warm up a bit and then stretch and bake.

An All Trumps/All Purpose blend gives you a tiny bit more extensibility, but, more importantly it gives you better volume and a better crumb.

I'm curious, what kind of stone are you using that gives you a 4 minute bake at 500 degrees?  Are you par-baking the crust? Does your oven actually run at 500 or does it have a tendency to run a lot hotter?

Offline finfan

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2011, 02:05:06 PM »
Hi Scott
  I checked my oven with a thermometer, and it actually hits 550 degrees (unless the thermometer is wrong). I don't yet have a stone so I use a regular pizza pan...the "crisper" type with tons of holes.
  I think at this point, I am just going to get a bag of the All Trumps hi-gluten, and start experimenting with different combinations. All I want is a nice stretchable dough.
  I have yet to produce a dough that's easily stretched with any flour I have ever used, and I have been trying this for years, so apparently I am doing something wrong here. I do not make a bulk ferment. I simply put the dough together, knead it, ball it and let it rise until double, then stretch and bake; the problem is my dough doesn't stretch although its a star at the baking part.  :)   

Offline shuboyje

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2011, 02:14:54 PM »
I would try hand Kneading.  I'd bet your bread machine is over working the dough and making it tough to stretch. 
-Jeff

Offline finfan

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2011, 02:55:58 PM »
Thanks shuboyje
 I was actually thinking about going the hand-kneading route. I am going to get some good hi-gluten flour and get to work. Thanks. Any input on using yeast....I was considering mixing it with warm water and a little sugar to get it foamy instead of just dumping it in dry on top of the flour?


Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2011, 09:05:50 PM »
Finfan,
I have this same exact problem too. I watch videos on youtube of pizza-makers preparing pizzas for the oven they grab the dough ball put a little flour on the dough and the counter then press it down a few times flip it over press it some more and within 5 seconds they have a 10" circle they lift it and hand strecth the edge in a circular motion and within 10 seconds they have the dough perfectly stretched. Now when i try pushing out my dough it won't get anywhere near 10" so then I keep pressing it until it gets a little closer then I try picking it up and strecth  it over my knuckles like they do but I can't get a grip on it. It just keeps sliding off because of the dusting flour on it. (I use Wondra.)So it takes me a good couple of minutes to get the dough close to how big I want it. Ive let it warm up on the counter for up to 4hrs too. Its a little better but still nowhere near as effortless as the videos on youtube and the guy at my local pizza shop does it. I use All Trumps flour, 58% hydration, .30% IDY, 1.75% salt, and 1% oil. I let it cold ferment in the fridge for 24 hrs. the dough never doubles in volume for me like everyone says it should. maybe i have too little yeast? IDK sorry if Im not helping at all but Ive been thinking of asking the forum about this same exact question so thanks for posting it! 
Jamie

Offline finfan

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2011, 09:57:35 PM »
Kostakis
 I have a nice little 8-day off-from-work vacation starting today and I plan on experimenting with  lots of flour/yeast/everything but the kitchen sink combinations till I get the dough I am looking for. Stay tuned. :)

buceriasdon

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2011, 08:07:22 AM »
I would suggest using higher hydration to aid in workability. 58% for All Trumps seems low, I would go with 62%.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 08:14:04 AM »
Try this, it will make your day a lot easier.
After you mix the dough, immediately divide it into three pieces and form into balls, then lightly oil with salad oil and place into individual plastic bread bags. Twist the open end to close and tuck the pony tail under the bag as you place it into the fridge. allow the dough balls to remain in the fridge for 16 to 48-hours. To use, remove the dough balls that you want to use and allow to temper AT room temperature for about 2-hours, then turn out into a bowl of flour and begin opening the dough ball(s) up into pizza skins, then handle in your normal manner. I'm betting the dough will open a lot easier for you with out nearly as much memory.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline jpritch

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2013, 09:50:07 PM »
I had this exact same problem!  I believe it was the result of overusing the mixer and not using enough water as well as too much yeast.


Was able to make great dough using the technique described below:

http://www.thetastyspot.com/?p=1622

I think what made the difference was the "autolyse" process.  I had never heard of this process and had been leaving this step out.

Additionally , I used my mixer for one minute less than mentioned in the above video, then I kneaded the dough and added flour until it became less wet and more dough-like... as the dough was quite sticky at this point , I had to use a lot of flour on the board as well as my hands. 

I stored my dough balls in individual (one doughball per container) ziplock plastic containers overnight.  I took out the dough balls about 2 hours before I needed them and unsealed the lids , but left the lids on top.

The dough was perfect!  Totally stretchable... just like the videos mentioned above.

ps - I used the caputo 00 flour as I have a woodfire oven.

good luck!
jack

Offline jazzflo

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2013, 07:29:07 PM »
Hello all, i am new to the pizza quest ( 6 months) but have seriously been bitten by the bug.  i am driving friends and family insane through my incessant babbling about pizza dough! I am hoping to start a wood-fire oven business, taking my trusty trailer and oven to various festivals food shows. i have followed Jeff Varasano's pizza recipe for his Neo style pizza, as they look amazing, (as do a lot of others on this forum) but as you would suspect from my lack of experience, i am struggling to get this down.

When my dough has aged in the fridge 2 - 3 days it comes out of the container ok although it seems a little on the wet side ( it would be difficult to pick it up and dip it in flour as it would start to stretch on its own accord!) When i stretch the dough by pushing, it becomes thin very quickly, almost always gets wrinkled, stretching it with my fists becomes too difficult as the dough is almost transparent by this stage and sometimes starts to rip, and by the time i place on the peel it is creased and often with rips . Also when i stretch the dough and i manage to avoid a tear (and tears), i find that the dough comes out thin in parts which results in an uneven baked pizza. When i window pane after mixing ( i use a kitchen aid at the moment) the dough can handle being stretched to create a good windowpane.

I rarely end up adding all of the remaining 25% of flour that is added after the initial autolyse and mixing for 5 mins of the 8 that is roughly required. sometimes i  autolyse for much longer periods to allow further gluten development (up to 1 hour at times, is this wise?) I also find that if i add the salt to early whilst mixing in the KA, the dough  forms a ball around the hook which makes the remaining flour difficult to incorporate. I then resort to hand mixing using a stretch and fold technique.

I am currently experimenting with a 50/50 mix of flour, one which has a starting protein of 13.9, and another which is 11.5.

Is it possible that i am mixing too long, would extra time autolysing have a bad effect on the dough? I have in some posts read that the dough may have been overworked or there is too much gluten which would result a dough that is difficult to stretch? Not sure how this can be if NY style uses HG flour?

i am also finding that following jeff v's formula for three pizzas i am always short for the 310 g he uses for each of them. How would i increase my measurements to get enough dough?

Many thanks

Darren
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 05:08:14 PM by jazzflo »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2013, 06:06:35 PM »
i am also finding that following jeff v's formula for three pizzas i am always short for the 310 g he uses for each of them. How would i increase my measurements to get enough dough?

Try this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=3

Let me know if it's not self explanatory.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline jazzflo

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Re: still looking for that "flexible" dough
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2013, 06:36:53 PM »
Clear as day! I have posted my process for much appreciated scrutiny!

Thanks again

Darren