Author Topic: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....  (Read 83767 times)

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Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #200 on: November 13, 2014, 10:32:44 PM »
Arctic Pizza,

I have made many sauces with fresh tomatoes I grow.  Les's sauce is one sauce I made with fresh tomatoes from my garden at this thread.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11539.0.html and at Reply 48 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11539.msg107657.html#msg107657 and other places on that thread.

I know how fresh sauces taste good, but that is too expensive to make for market.  I have had many customers tell me that my market sauce is unique, and customers like it very much. 

I have simmered fresh tomatoes down and canned them.

I guess it all comes down to what every member likes.

Norma

I agree with all your points above, but my point is that canned tomatoes are NOT uncooked tomatoes packed in cans.  They are cooked, just without fat/oil.  Once you introduce fats to tomatoes and heated, they change.  I can understand a workflow that wants to speed it up with a microwave to bloom some flavor in herbs and added to tomatoes, but that would be the same as a shortcut.  I could bake a potato by first microwaving it first for 5 minute to speed it up, but within context of people spending so much time on dough, and "cold fermenting", what's with the microwave?  Just curious. 










Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #201 on: November 13, 2014, 11:16:59 PM »
The times you cooked tomatoes on a stovetop, did you add oil?  Fats will transform tomatoes when cooked.  If you simmer canned tomatoes for <30-45 minutes without oil, you won't know the difference.  Canned tomatoes are cooked tomatoes in it's own water.

Artic Pizza,

I did not cook the tomatoes on the stovetop when I made Les's sauce.  The variety of tomatoes were slow baked in the oven.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #202 on: November 13, 2014, 11:24:42 PM »
I agree with all your points above, but my point is that canned tomatoes are NOT uncooked tomatoes packed in cans.  They are cooked, just without fat/oil.  Once you introduce fats to tomatoes and heated, they change.  I can understand a workflow that wants to speed it up with a microwave to bloom some flavor in herbs and added to tomatoes, but that would be the same as a shortcut.  I could bake a potato by first microwaving it first for 5 minute to speed it up, but within context of people spending so much time on dough, and "cold fermenting", what's with the microwave?  Just curious.

Artic Pizza,

I don't understand why your point continues to be that canned tomatoes are not uncooked tomatoes packed in cans.  I know they are cooked.  You also posted in another thread you do like cooked pizza sauce with animal fats in a pizza sauce.

I did make tomato sauce like Craig posted at Reply 28  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,32556.msg322278.html#msg322278

I don't think you would know if you would like/not like the MAE extraction method unless you tired it. 

I also don't understand why a shortcut when using the MAE extraction method could hurt the taste of a pizza sauce/or why using that method would be considered a shortcut in the context of the whole pizza.

I don't know if you have looked at the Stanislaus website, but these are some links.   

http://www.stanislaus.com/products/not-from-concentrate/consequences_of_rmfg

http://www.stanislaus.com/products/not-from-concentrate

http://www.stanislaus.com/products/not-from-concentrate/process_comparison

Norma
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Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #203 on: November 14, 2014, 08:56:44 AM »
Artic Pizza,

I don't understand why your point continues to be that canned tomatoes are not uncooked tomatoes packed in cans.  I know they are cooked.  You also posted in another thread you do like cooked pizza sauce with animal fats in a pizza sauce.

I did make tomato sauce like Craig posted at Reply 28  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,32556.msg322278.html#msg322278

I don't think you would know if you would like/not like the MAE extraction method unless you tired it. 

I also don't understand why a shortcut when using the MAE extraction method could hurt the taste of a pizza sauce/or why using that method would be considered a shortcut in the context of the whole pizza.

I don't know if you have looked at the Stanislaus website, but these are some links.   

http://www.stanislaus.com/products/not-from-concentrate/consequences_of_rmfg

http://www.stanislaus.com/products/not-from-concentrate

http://www.stanislaus.com/products/not-from-concentrate/process_comparison

Norma

I mention that canned tomatoes are pre-cooked because as I've read this topic, it seems MAE method is used on the assumption that canned tomatoes have not been cooked and *should not be cooked* and this is a work around to get herbs to maximize their flavor into the canned tomato.  as in post:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg35430/topicseen.html#msg35430

November writes, "I am curious why you're heating the sauce though.  Is it for dipping breadsticks or something like that?  If not for using as a side sauce, I wouldn't heat up the sauce for anything.  That's one of the main reasons for using MAE on the seasonings in the first place."

If MAE is a shortcut and works for you, great.  But I am pointing out how many of you are so vehemently against simmering canned tomato at all,  and wondering where this belief came from?  If the concern is that cooking sauce further will dry out and become overbrown in the baking, then all you need to do is hydrate the sauce first to get the correct viscosity prior to baking.  There are many people who use paste tomato out of cans, and add water to it for this purpose.  I recall one of your videos, where Frank uses Flotta, which is a concentrated tomato that has been cooked down ALOT prior to packing and needs water added to get the correct viscosity after cans are opened.  Simmering tomatoes out of a can for 15-30 minutes won't damage the tomato.  If you cook it down in fat/oil for hours, yes it will change and may not work for your pizzas.  Also I don't recall any pizzerias using microwaves 30 years ago to MAE out the flavor of oregano and other spices.  What did they do back then?  They introduced and developed flavor in their pizza sauces through basic simmering and then cooled.  That's all I'm saying.  I have no issues with people using shortcuts like MAE, I mean people use all kinds of additives in their doughs nowadays to shortcut a process, (ie conditioners, powders), and that's fine by me,  but I don't agree with the  "DO NOT COOK YOUR TOMATO AT ALL COSTS" mentality.  That's all. 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 09:18:27 AM by Arctic Pizza »

Online jsaras

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #204 on: November 14, 2014, 09:21:31 AM »
The point of using MAE is to avoid cooking already cooked tomatoes an additional time.  Tomatoes are cooked before they are canned, a fact known by virtually everyone on this forum (Cook#1).  The sauce will cook again when the pizza is baked (Cook #2).  The thinking is that giving canned tomatoes an additional cook (#3) on a stovetop causes the tomatoes to lose their brightness.  MAE allows the herbs and spices release their flavors as they would on a stovetop without torturing the tomatoes an additional time.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #205 on: November 14, 2014, 09:27:45 AM »
I mention that canned tomatoes are pre-cooked because as I've read this topic, it seems MAE method is used on the assumption that canned tomatoes have not been cooked and *should not be cooked* and this is a work around to get herbs to maximize their flavor into the canned tomato.  as in post:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg35430/topicseen.html#msg35430

November writes, "I am curious why you're heating the sauce though.  Is it for dipping breadsticks or something like that?  If not for using as a side sauce, I wouldn't heat up the sauce for anything.  That's one of the main reasons for using MAE on the seasonings in the first place."

If MAE is a shortcut and works for you, great.  But I am pointing out how many of you are so vehemently against simmering canned tomato at all,  and wondering where this belief came from?  If the concern is that cooking sauce further will dry out and become overbrown in the baking, then all you need to do is hydrate the sauce first to get the correct viscosity prior to baking.  There are many people who use paste tomato out of cans, and add water to it for this purpose.  I recall one of your videos, where Frank uses Flotta, which is a concentrated tomato that has been cooked down ALOT prior to packing and needs water added to get the correct viscosity after cans are opened.  Simmering tomatoes out of a can for 15-30 minutes won't damage the tomato.  If you cook it down in fat/oil for hours, yes it will change and may not work for your pizzas.  Also I don't recall any pizzerias using microwaves 30 years ago to MAE out the flavor of oregano and other spices.  What did they do back then?  They introduced and developed flavor in their pizza sauces through basic simmering and then cooled.  That's all I'm saying.  I have no issues with people using shortcuts like MAE, I mean people use all kinds of additives in their doughs nowadays to shortcut a process, (ie conditioners, powders), and that's fine by me,  but I don't agree with the  "DO NOT COOK YOUR TOMATO AT ALL COSTS" mentality.  That's all.

Artic Pizza,

I am not going to argue with you, because each of us here on the forum might like different tomato sauces for different pizzas.  If November sees your posts maybe he can comment on what he means.  There are many threads on what members like in different sauces.  I have tried many sauces because I was involved in different reverse engineering threads, and naturally wanted to be able to taste different sauces.  Each of those sauces did help me learn what other sauces can taste like when baked on a pizza, whether they were a combinations of sauces, or something else.  All I really know if I have leftover sauce and I might want to use it to coat pastas, or might use it on sausage or something else, the flavor does change if it is simmered 15-30 mintues.  I am not saying it will damage the tomato. 

I really don't know what they did years ago before the MAE method, but there was still the sautéing method to introduce herbs.  Your posts about using animal fats and simmering a sauce also might have been used.

The way I look at what each members does to make a tomato sauce for pizza is “if it works for them then it is okay”.

Norma
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Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #206 on: November 14, 2014, 09:28:49 AM »
The point of using MAE is to avoid cooking already cooked tomatoes an additional time.  Tomatoes are cooked before they are canned, a fact known by virtually everyone on this forum (Cook#1).  The sauce will cook again when the pizza is baked (Cook #2).  The thinking is that giving canned tomatoes an additional cook (#3) on a stovetop causes the tomatoes to lose their brightness.  MAE allows the herbs and spices release their flavors as they would on a stovetop without torturing the tomatoes an additional time.

I agree, but there is a big difference between a gentle 30 minute simmer of canned tomatoes and a 3 hour sauce gulag.

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #207 on: November 14, 2014, 09:34:19 AM »
Artic Pizza,

I am not going to argue with you, because each of us here on the forum might like different tomato sauces for different pizzas.  If November sees your posts maybe he can comment on what he means.  There are many threads on what members like in different sauces.  I have tried many sauces because I was involved in different reverse engineering threads, and naturally wanted to be able to taste different sauces.  Each of those sauces did help me learn what other sauces can taste like when baked on a pizza, whether they were a combinations of sauces, or something else.  All I really know if I have leftover sauce and I might want to use it to coat pastas, or might use it on sausage or something else, the flavor does change if it is simmered 15-30 mintues.  I am not saying it will damage the tomato. 

I really don't know what they did years ago before the MAE method, but there was still the sautéing method to introduce herbs.  Your posts about using animal fats and simmering a sauce also might have been used.

The way I look at what each members does to make a tomato sauce for pizza is “if it works for them then it is okay”.

Norma

Thanks, I agree if it works for them then it's ok.  No, I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I respect that you are reverse-engineering a NJ boardwalk style pizza, and your process is tried and true.  Sometimes, I just question widely accepted beliefs of how any kind of food *should* be, when it may not have been like that years ago that's all.  Currently accepted practices then seem more like trends, but they always change.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 09:38:02 AM by Arctic Pizza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #208 on: November 14, 2014, 10:01:49 AM »
Thanks, I agree if it works for them then it's ok.  No, I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I respect that you are reverse-engineering a NJ boardwalk style pizza, and your process is tried and true.  Sometimes, I just question widely accepted beliefs of how any kind of food *should* be, when it may not have been like that years ago that's all.  Currently accepted practices then seem more like trends, but they always change.

Arctic Pizza,

I have not successfully reverse-engineered a Mack's pizza.  I did purchase the exact sauce Mack's uses, tried to make a dough like theirs and also tried to find out the brand of cheddar Mack's uses.  Right now I am satisfied how my boardwalk style pizza tastes, but I still am not making a pizza exactly like Mack's.  What I did find though, is that a different sauce can be used and it really doesn't make that much difference in how the final pizza tastes if a different brand of sauce is used.

I don't think any member is implying that any specific method is exactly what anyone should try or use.

Norma
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Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #209 on: November 14, 2014, 10:09:20 AM »
Arctic Pizza,

I have not successfully reverse-engineered a Mack's pizza.  I did purchase the exact sauce Mack's uses, tried to make a dough like theirs and also tried to find out the brand of cheddar Mack's uses.  Right now I am satisfied how my boardwalk style pizza tastes, but I still am not making a pizza exactly like Mack's.  What I did find though, is that a different sauce can be used and it really doesn't make that much difference in how the final pizza tastes if a different brand of sauce is used.

I don't think any member is implying that any specific method is exactly what anyone should try or use.

Norma

I  quoted someone on this topic who felt tomatoes should absolutely not be heated out of a can, and simply questioning that.

Regarding your pizza, perhaps it would be a great achievement in of itself to just make your own variation and it will be yours?  Nothing will be exactly the same as the original like Mack's, but that's what the progression is like.  I'm sure Mack's was influenced by another place years ago.  Musicians are influenced and inspired by other established acts, first try to emulate them and then put their personal individual stamp on it.  Same with art.  Things can be replicated, but exactly?  We all have unique way of doing things though we may not be conscious of them.  From what I've seen, you seem to have a very special thing going on that you can refer to as your own?

I'm of the belief when everyone begins to converge into a singular way of doing anything, the product and industry tends to deteriorate. 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 10:12:14 AM by Arctic Pizza »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #210 on: November 14, 2014, 10:13:03 AM »
For many years I studied the posts at the PMQ Think Tank forum to see how many professionals cooked their pizza sauces. There were a few, and sometimes it was a traditional cooking of the sauces, as for Sicilian style pizzas, but most did not cook their sauces. Maybe in part it was because Tom Lehmann, who was (and still is) universally respected by the members, advocated against cooked pizza sauces. Even on this forum, and in this thread, Tom has posted along the same lines as his posts at the PMQTT on this subject, for example, at Reply 165 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg237549.html#msg237549 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg348215/topicseen.html#msg348215.

Of course, there are some who cook their sauces. The famed Dom DeMarco at DiFara's cooks his pizza sauce for the Sicilian style pizzas. I saw that myself one time when I passed through the kitchen where Dom's son was cooking the sauce (I asked him if that was the sauce for the Sicilian style). More recently, I noticed that Mellow Mushroom was using a cooked pizza sauce for the pizzas made in its approximately 150 locations across the country. When Norma and I worked on a clone of their dough and pizzas, we had assumed that the pizza sauce was uncooked but another member reported having seen something like a heating pot in one of their units. These days, MM says right on its website that their pizza sauce is cooked, at http://mellowmushroom.com/philosophy.

I believe what November was trying to do is to take a principle, MAE, that was used elsewhere and adapt it to the pizza realm. Apparently his work in this area resonated with the members. On this forum, it is rare to see a thread on pizza sauces with large numbers of page views. This thread has almost 83,000 page views. I am aware of only one thread on pizza sauces with more page views--a thread devoted to trying to recreate the Shakey's pizza sauce. That thread has around 147,000 page views, and counting.

Peter

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #211 on: November 14, 2014, 11:09:05 AM »

More recently, I noticed that Mellow Mushroom was using a cooked pizza sauce for the pizzas made in its approximately 150 locations across the country. When Norma and I worked on a clone of their dough and pizzas, we had assumed that the pizza sauce was uncooked but another member reported having seen something like a heating pot in one of their units. These days, MM says right on its website that their pizza sauce is cooked, at http://mellowmushroom.com/philosophy.

Peter

Peter,

That is interesting that MM says right on their website that their pizza sauce is cooked.

Norma
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Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #212 on: November 16, 2014, 08:11:52 PM »
I'm of the belief when everyone begins to converge into a singular way of doing anything, the product and industry tends to deteriorate.

I hope you realize that is perhaps the most overgeneralized statement ever made about "anything."  Standards are quite a good thing.  I don't think you want everyone to come up with their own way of driving on the road.  In fact, if you come up with a design for a wheel that you think is better than a round one, let us all know.  Bringing it back to pizza, I'm sure the industry wouldn't "deteriorate" if everyone used tomatoes in their sauce, yeast in their dough, and mozzarella for their cheese.

I wholly endorse creativity and diversity, but their origins are still always based on some set of standards (singular ways of doing things).  Incidentally, food franchises rarely succeed without each establishment following the same rules.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #213 on: November 16, 2014, 09:32:18 PM »
I hope you realize that is perhaps the most overgeneralized statement ever made about "anything."  Standards are quite a good thing.  I don't think you want everyone to come up with their own way of driving on the road.  In fact, if you come up with a design for a wheel that you think is better than a round one, let us all know.  Bringing it back to pizza, I'm sure the industry wouldn't "deteriorate" if everyone used tomatoes in their sauce, yeast in their dough, and mozzarella for their cheese.

I wholly endorse creativity and diversity, but their origins are still always based on some set of standards (singular ways of doing things).  Incidentally, food franchises rarely succeed without each establishment following the same rules.
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Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #214 on: November 17, 2014, 12:09:23 AM »
it seems MAE method is used on the assumption that canned tomatoes have not been cooked and *should not be cooked* and this is a work around to get herbs to maximize their flavor into the canned tomato.  as in post:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg35430/topicseen.html#msg35430

November writes, "I am curious why you're heating the sauce though.  Is it for dipping breadsticks or something like that?  If not for using as a side sauce, I wouldn't heat up the sauce for anything.  That's one of the main reasons for using MAE on the seasonings in the first place."

It provides for a more ethical discussion if you don't quote out of context.  I was responding to a question about heating pizza sauce already made using the MAE process.  At no point was there any implication that canned tomato products weren't already exposed to heat, and at no point did I say tomato sauces shouldn't be cooked.  The sauce gets cooked on the pizza for crying out loud.  It's all about how much do you want your sauce to get cooked.  All I introduced was a method to avoid supplementally cooking the tomato, along with the various reasons why one might want to heat the seasonings separately.  Take it or leave it.

Offline David Esq.

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #215 on: November 17, 2014, 01:18:23 PM »
As to the better wheel, please consider a sphere. A sphere can allow for better turning and  for easier parallel parking. Just pull up and drive sideways.

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #216 on: November 17, 2014, 10:32:37 PM »
As to the better wheel, please consider a sphere. A sphere can allow for better turning and  for easier parallel parking. Just pull up and drive sideways.
Seems to work on vacuum cleaners......doubt it would work on the Space Shuttle, or my 180mph Corvette.....or do you know something they don't?
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Offline cheekygeek

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #217 on: Yesterday at 09:19:14 PM »
I gotta say, I'm a newbie and my first .001 scale turned out to have problems so returned it and ordered a different model (which should be here by Monday) but I tried the MAE method for the first time, using Red November's ratios in 28 oz. of uncooked 6-in-1 and the sauce was FANTASTICO. I used 1/8 teaspoon as the "1 vu" measure by volume (not weight). The only adjustment I would make would be to put the 6-in-1 in the Vitamix to get rid of the random piece of tomato skin (texture is a big thing with me). But the seasoning was delicious.

I put the dried spices in the bottom of a measuring cup with just enough water to cover/saturate and microwaved on 20% for 3 minutes. The result was a wonderfully fragrant paste that I added to the tomatoes and mixed in.

I was trying the 2- ingredient (Greek Yogurt and Self-Rising Flour) dough recipe and I have a lot to learn about dough. I baked it on quarry tiles placed on the bottom of my 6-burner gas U.S. Range oven preheated for 75 minutes to +500. The bottom was done nicely, but the sauce side was still doughy. After doing some more searching of the forum, I plan to try putting the rack and tiles very near the top to get radiant heat reflecting off the top and hopefully get the dough done more evenly. But even undercooked, I have certainly found a sauce recipe and MAE method to build from and I ate the whole thing (not at one sitting, but still) with some Canadian Bacon under the cheese (a mixture of mozz and provelone. ONWARDS and UPWARDS!

Thanks to Red November for sharing the MAE method and his seasoning proportions in his Red Sauce #2 recipe. Very encouraged.



 

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