How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions

[DoughFoSho]

My baking stone is 34W*38H (CM), that means that my largest pizza can be 34cm,
how much flour should be used for a single 34cm (ofcourse 33 or 35, give or take, no biggie!) pie?

Another question, what kind of hydration will give me a bubbly nice crust? 60%? less? more?
and does it have anything to do with the proccess of the dough making, other than just the amount of water (hydration)?
because I keep reading how you guys use your mixers in order to make your doughs, for example, Pete's explanation to this girl; http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563
As in, slowly adding the water into the mixer while it keeps on stirring. Does it affect the final product? Because I'm not sure whether my mom's old mixer is working or not, and I only have my both hands. I was thinking that throwing all dry ingredients (flour, yeast, sugar, salt), mix it using spatula, then pour in all the water and oil used for the recipe, use the spatula until it is somwhat hard, and then knead by hand in the bowl until everything comes together, then take it outside and knead on a workspace for several minutes.

does this method (I don't know if it can even be called a 'method', it is just manual working) yield a different result than a mixer one?

Thanks alot everyone

[buceriasdon]

I recommend studying and trying out this calculator however it does require the use of a kitchen scale to make the dough:   http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html   For you I would insert a Thickness Factor of .085 as a starting point. I would insert 12" for size. I have no idea what how much protein is in the flour you will use but for the sake of calculation insert 55 to 60% hydration. Insert say 2% for salt and .5 for yeast. Many of us switch to volume measurements for the smaller ingredients such as sugar, oil, salt, and yeast.  Flour, water, salt and yeast, your basic pizza dough. Whether hand mixing or using a mixer my preferred method is to slowly add flour to the water in the bowl.
Don

[scott123]

I agree with Don.  Shahar, what is the protein content (as a percent) of the flour you're using? The protein content will dictate, to an extent, how much water to use.

Kneading in the bowl a bit is a good technique, btw.  You gum up your hands a bit, but the counter ends up cleaner. Dry into wet, mix with spoon until too hard to mix, knead in bowl, then knead on floured counter.

[DoughFoSho]

WOW! I knew this forum was great but this awesome calculator makes it even more awesome LOL

Thanks alot Don & Scott,
I just got back from shopping! I knew a kitchen scale is required, and I got one
I also got a nice 00 type flour, the protein value is 10g per 100g flour (in normal/bread flours, the protein is said to be 11g per 100g flour) does this mean the hydration level (in percentage) should be lower? (as it says) should I make it 55%?
Don, how come you said I should insert a 12" in size pizza? 34CM is more like 13.3, so wouldn't 13" more accurate?
Plus, when I intend to make the pizza, I wanna make it the old fasioned way, using my hands, which means the crust will be thicker, and then ill open the dough etc etc, so should the thickness level still be .085 to begin with? because the crust will obviously be thicker.. I mean, so how can I translate it accurately to the pizza size in this calculator?

once we get these questions answered I'll move onto oil and sugar,
Thanks alot!

[Pete-zza]

DoughFoSho,

For an even more "awesome" dough calculating tool, at least in my opinion, you should also check out the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html.

Since different types and styles of pizzas have different values of thickness factors, I think you should really first decide what kind or style of pizza you want to make. To give you an idea as to the correlations between pizza styles and thickness factors, you might check out Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12243.msg115759/topicseen.html#msg115759.

Flour types are also reasonably correlated with pizza types. For example, for an authentic NY style pizza as currently practiced by most pizzerias in New York City, you perhaps would want to go with a high-gluten flour. For a Neapolitan style pizza, you would want to go with a 00 flour. However, you should be aware of the fact that 00 flours do not do well with standard home ovens. You need an oven with much, much higher bake temperatures. There are also standard hydration (absorption) values for different types of flours. Once you know the type of pizza you want to make and its related thickness factor, and once you know the type of flour you plan to use (which will help establish the hydration value to use), then you are ready to play around with the dough calculating tools. The size of pizza you want to make is whatever you want it to be, so long as it will fit on your screen or pizza stone or disk or pan. If you want a 34cm/2.54 = 13.39" pizza size, that is the number you would plug into the calculating tool in the pizza size box. Of course, most people use standard pizza sizes. Even those sizes can be somewhat correlated with pizza type. For example, a Neapolitan style pizza might be 10-12". A NY style pizza might be 18" or even larger in some cases. A typical American style pizza can come in several sizes, such as 12", 14" and 16". But, it is all up to you. You can make the pizzas any size you want. That is one of the nice things about the dough calculating tools.

Ingredients like sugar and oil will also depend to a large degree on the type or style of pizza you want to use. For example, for a New York style, the amount of oil might be 0-3%. The sugar might be 0-2%. By contrast, the dough for an American style pizza, for example, like a Papa John's or Domino's style pizza, might have as much as 7% oil and 5% sugar. The dough for a Chicago deep-dish pizza dough might have from 8-30% oil. And, so on. The important thing is to learn the basics and crawl before you walk and walk before you run. From there, there are almost endless possibilities.

Peter

[DoughFoSho]

First off thanks alot for the elaborated reply,
Thanks for your thickness-pizza styles post aswell,
I guess it is safe to say I'm kinda after the NY style, so Don might've been right I should go with 0.085, maybe I'll go for 0.95.

I realize what you're saying about the 00 type flour, I'll go and replace mine tomorrow, to a bread-type flour,
I'm ASSUMING the protein value will be 11g/100g, and I understand what you're saying about first picking the flour and then know the hydration level needed, but when you tell me the flour is 11g/100g protein, it doesn't tell me much, how am I supposed to learn the hydration level needed compared with the flour in use?
I realize the pizza calculator says that bread flour requires a lower hydration, but 56-64% is too general, along with 58-65% for high-gluten flours

Can anyone assist with that?

and thanks alot again [=

[scott123]

Shahar, for NY style, .085 is towards the upper end of the spectrum.  Thicker pizzas are easier to stretch, so, to begin with, I'd start with .085, but if you want something more NYish, I'd eventually make the move down to .08 or even .075

Start looking for a 12-13% protein flour. Once you find that, we'll have a recommended hydration for you.

[DoughFoSho]

Ok scott, I'm planning to replace the 00 flour anyway, and the place I bought it at has a huge-ass variety of flours, I'll make sure to pick the highest I can find

BUT, can you please explain to me how you will provide your answer about the hydration? It's not just the answer I'm seeking for, I also want to understand the reason behind the answer [=
Thanks again! (and if you want to wait with your answer until tomorrow when I'm back it's fine by me, because I am not sure yet on what kind of flour I'll get my hands on)

[Pete-zza]

DoughFoSho,

You might want to read the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12211.msg115181.html#msg115181.

Peter

[scott123]

Shahar, the link that Peter posted should be helpful.

Hydration is a subject that could fill volumes.  Off the top of my head, water impacts enzyme activity, yeast activity, gluten formation, oven spring, crust coloration, crumb consistency, crust consistency, and dough elasticity/extensibility/manageability/launchability. The best way to learn hydration is to first work with the absorption value of your flour (the amount of water it can absorb) and then add less or more water and see how it impacts the end results. For NY style, less or more would probably translate into 4 percentage points above and 2 below- a little extra water is usually beneficial, but not more than a percentage point or two.

[DoughFoSho]

Thanks Scott, I guess there's nothing like experience for those kind of stuff
and thanks for those links, Peter, that contains alot of information, I read all of it and I'm sure I'll give it another read tomorrow (just for the sake of learning), I realized it would be complex, I wasn't wrong 

I'll get back to you guys tomorrow as I get the flour

[DoughFoSho]

Ok guys I'm about to go and replace the flour, BUT, I thought I might aswell look in the flour brand website, and indeed the bread flour I'll be getting will have 11% protein, is it ok? it's a high quality flour here in Israel, here's what's written about it in the site:

Enriched flour is flour bread meant doughy yeast used for baking breads with an airy texture and high volume, and apply rolls, focaccia, etc.. It has a high Gluten level, and allows much dough water absorption, which contributes to the lengthening of the shelf life of ready-made pastry. To get the advantage of the flour, kneading the dough has vigorously until the dough is smooth. Particularly suitable flour bread machines.

Nutritional value (100gram)

361 Energy (calories)
11 Proteins (gr.)
75.6 Carbohydrates (gr.)
1.0 Fats (gr.)
2.0 Sodium (mg.)
0.44 Thiamine B1 (mg.)
0.26 Riboflavin B2 (mg.)
3.5 Niacin (mg.)
6 Vitamin C (mg.)
2.9 Iron (mg.)
95 Phosphorus (mg.)
82 Calcium (mg.)
0.04 Folic acid Bc (mg.)

there are higher protein level flours but they're like Wheat flour, and I rather not use that, you know

[scott123]

Shahar, you're basically running into the single biggest problem for pizza enthusiasts living in countries where not a lot of pizza is consumed- finding the right flour.

11% protein, for the kind of pizza you're making, is too low.  There's just no way around it. It's close- 12% works well, and 11 is close to 12, but, imo, it's not close enough.

I guess, if you really have absolutely no other option than 11% flour, then you have no other choice but to use it.  11%, used on it's own, will definitely be better than combining 11% with vital wheat gluten to try and approximate a higher protein flour.

Before you settle for 11, though, I would really try to exhaust every single potential avenue. I did a little research, and, although quite a few bagels in Israel are bready and misrepresentative, apparently you can get real/high gluten flour bagels in Jerusalem. Just like a good slice of pizza can't really be made with 11% flour, a real bagel can't be made either. Any establishment making authentic bagels is getting their hands on higher protein flour- from somewhere.  Even if you don't live near Jerusalem, I would start calling a few of these places to see what flour they're using and where they're getting it from. This list is dated, but this is what I'd start with

http://www.eluna.com/rest/bagels.asp

[DoughFoSho]

Thanks for the reply, Scott, I just got back from the store
got 3 of those 11% bread flours, and I hear what you are saying,
I like your idea about the bagel places, and I'll give a couple a call tomorrow, like you kindly suggested, but, I also have my own unique idea and I was hoping you could give your 2 cents on it

I keep reading how you guys are more than just praising the 6in1 all ground tomato cans, you keep saying that single handed killed all them other cans, and I decided that I've just gotta get those cans.
I obviously can't find it in Israel, and the official website of the 6in1 only delivers within the US, but I kept searching and came up with this site:
https://taylorsmarket.com
which delivers internationaly, and I intend to order some of those, ofcourse
I assume you realize where I'm headed with this by now; What about ordering online high protein flour that you guys use? King Arthur I believe? (not sure, I just know it's a very high quality brand, being mentioned alot here and in thefreshloaf forum).
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flours/ , the bread flour type is 12.7% for example, Maybe I can come up with a site that ships flour internationaly aswell?!

Thanks again,

EDIT:Found this site,
www.meijer.com
they now deliver internationally, BUT look what rip off, I randomly selected a king arthur product,
look at the shipping cost:
http://i43.tinypic.com/2e6abld.jpg

EDIT #2:after realizing shipping costs that much, I went back to Taylorsmarket and pressed Check out all through, just to see the shipping cost, and I was right
it's about 160$ shipping cost only... so I guess ordering those things online is not realistic after all =[
no 6in1 and no flour

[scott123]

Shahar, international shipping, as you figured out, is cost prohibitive.

I think the root of your problem, being in Israel, is that you're fighting geography.  Hard wheat doesn't really grow where you are. Hard wheat favors cooler weather.  For the U.S., it's the midwest, and for the UK, it's Canada.  Italy doesn't even really have the climate for hard wheat, but they take a slightly softer wheat and process it in such as way that the protein is maximized.

The closest area to you that I can think of that might grow hard wheat would probably be the Ukraine.  The Ukraine, if memory serves me correctly, used to be called something along the lines of 'Russia's breadbasket.'  Doesn't Israel have a sizable number of Russian emigres? After bagel places, the next businesses I'd call would be Russian bakeries in hopes that they might be importing Ukranian flour.

Also, during my digging, I found a pizzeria in Tel Aviv, that, from the photos, looks like it's using a higher protein flour:

http://www.idreamofpizza.com/2010/01/pizza-hapizza-in-tel-aviv-fresh-tasty.html

I would definitely give them a call. Hopefully it's not Caputo flour, as Caputo wouldn't work well in your oven, but, even if it is, it still might be preferable to 11%.

[parallei]

Shahar,

Michael gets great results with the Israeli (or at least available in Israel) bread flour he uses. Or have you tried it and not liked it?

[DoughFoSho]

Ok scott thanks, but there's one prob though
not only am I not sure that if they (by 'they' I mean the bagel place and the tel aviv pizzeria) will let me buy their flour, but even if they do, going there everytime for some bread is too troublesome and isn't likely to happen, I leave in Ashdod and we do have alot of pizzerias here, but I have no clue what the level of the protein is,
I think I should first give those pizzerias a call, because if they do have a high level protein flour and willing to sell, I can easily go there as they are minutes away from my home, don't you think?

Another idea I thought of, is Gluten addition to the flour, what do you think?
mix it with the 11% protein flour I have and result in a higher gluten flour
I googled and I came up (surprisingly enough) to a thread  started by msheetrit - Michael, asking this

http://www.baking.co.il/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=360
He basically asks how he can figure out the protein percentage in a gluten powder he has purchased, and then he says that he got the store to call the manufacturer for him and said that the one he bought is 73% protein
he says he then used this on a regular flour (not the typical 11% flour that he uses, he has the same type of flour I purchased today)
and got to pretty much the same result as the 11% flour, BUT that the taste of it pretty sucks and therefore he will not be using it anymore in a regular flour, and will only use it with the 11% flour because from there the gap isn't too high

What do you think of the powder idea in general? I'll link msheetrit to this post aswell,

I now realize you already mentioned this method, you were referring to it when saying "vital wheat flour", I missed the word "vital" when reading your post ]= disregard it all then

EDIT:
as I pressed Post to post this reply, this showed up:
Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

so it is funny how we both end up mentioning Michael, Parellei,
Yes I do know he uses this type of flour, but since you're reading this atm you probably already know [=
He uses this same Stybel type 2 bread flour I bought today, the one which I posted the nutritional values for

[scott123]

Shahar, it's less about buying flour from these places and more about finding out what brand of flour they use and where they're getting it from. Once you get a brand name, a distributor name or a mill, you can google it and hopefully find a source.

Just explain that you're making pizza at home and need a higher protein flour and wanted to know what flour they're using. The bagel places might be a little more forthcoming than the pizza places, but either might not tell you anything.

And powder is worthless- bad taste and doesn't really give you the results you're looking for.

[DoughFoSho]

Yeah I just edited my post about the vital

and I see what you mean
I'll make a list of phone numbers to call tomorrow (since it's too late to be calling now, its 10PM)
and in the meanwhile try and google some more

[DoughFoSho]

I'll never get these results with a 11% flour? ]=
kinda makes me sad D:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.0.html
Essen1's pies.. love them
so thin and good

Question; he said he mixed the ingredients for 2 min, let rest for 20min, followed by 15min knead on speed 2
and then I saw Peter replying to him about Autolisys... was her referring to Essen1's? or was he talking in general?
Because I thought that autolyse means 90-100% hydration (as in, throw in only about 75% of the flour) but in Essen1's case, it was 100% flour, just rest for 20min
can we still call it autolyse?