Author Topic: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions  (Read 3335 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2011, 08:28:03 PM »
DoughFoSho,

Can you cite the posts (Reply numbers or links) that you mentioned?

Peter


parallei

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2011, 10:31:03 PM »
Quote
so it is funny how we both end up mentioning Michael, Parellei,
Yes I do know he uses this type of flour, but since you're reading this atm you probably already know [=
He uses this same Stybel type 2 bread flour I bought today, the one which I posted the nutritional values for]so it is funny how we both end up mentioning Michael, Parellei,
Yes I do know he uses this type of flour, but since you're reading this atm you probably already know [=
He uses this same Stybel type 2 bread flour I bought today, the one which I posted the nutritional values for


So, there you go.......you have a decent flour.  Obviously, one can make a fine pizza with the Stybel type 2 bread flour.  Folks make fine pizza with American All Purpose flours (about 11-12%) all the time.  I would suggest that it is more about making and handling dough, learning a decent work flow and making pizza than worrying about all the "correct" tools and ingredients. 

Go for it!

« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:34:52 PM by parallei »

Pizza01

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2011, 05:59:37 AM »
thank you parallei.

shahar first of all you can get great results from plain ap flour.
after saying that...
tell us what kind of oven do you use?
what is the baking mode?
oven rack? where do you place the stone?
what is the max temp of the oven?
preheating time of the stone/oven ...
i think that more then flour this is the kind of things that you need to ask.
good luck :)
and one more thing. post photos please.

you can see this about adding wheat vital protein
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13197.msg129832.html#msg129832
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:07:10 AM by msheetrit »

Online scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2011, 09:44:50 AM »
I'll never get these results with a 11% flour? ]=
kinda makes me sad D:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.0.html
Essen1's pies.. love them
so thin and good

Question; he said he mixed the ingredients for 2 min, let rest for 20min, followed by 15min knead on speed 2
and then I saw Peter replying to him about Autolisys... was her referring to Essen1's? or was he talking in general?
Because I thought that autolyse means 90-100% hydration (as in, throw in only about 75% of the flour) but in Essen1's case, it was 100% flour, just rest for 20min
can we still call it autolyse?


Shahar, assuming that the posts you're referencing can be found here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg69556.html#msg69556

I think it's important to note that those posts date back to 2009 and are at the beginning of a long pizzamaking journey. I haven't read the entire thread, but in long threads such as this, progress is almost always part of the journey, so later formulations/techniques are usually superior to early ones.  If your desire is to emulate the kind of pies that Essen1 (Mike) is making, then I think it would be a good idea to read the entire thread so you can follow his progress.

It also might be wise to drop Mike a line and see what his favorite formulation is, as he's taken a variety of directions and his most recent recipe may not be his all time favorite.

As far as achieving his results with your present flour, no, it is not possible.  As with all things pizza, there's widely differing viewpoints and many highly subjective areas.  How I define 'great' pizza and 'fine' pizza is most likely a bit different than how Paul and Michael define 'great' and 'fine.' If, though, you are personally defining 'great' pizza as Essen1's pies, especially those pizzas towards the end of his thread, then I would not give up on your quest to find higher protein flour.

This being said, if it boils down to either using the Stybel 2 or not using the Stybel and waiting an extended period of time until you can track down something better, then, by all means, use the Stybel 2 and make pizza. Pizzamaking, as I said before, is a journey.  None of us have started with the best flour, the best oven setup or the best recipe.  We've all started with the best we can get and then we've grown from there.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2011, 12:00:11 PM »
DoughFoSho,

scott123 found the posts that you mentioned (Thanks, scott123!!). I had mentioned autolyse and similar rest periods because Mike (Essen1) mentioned that he followed Terry Deane's dough making advice (as given at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7538.msg64825.html#msg64825) that calls for a prolonged rest period before the final knead. I seriously doubt that Mike was using a classic autolyse, which requires combining only the flour (or a portion of it) with water and later adding the yeast, salt and other ingredients. So, I wouldn't concern myself about autolyse at this point. Moreover, if you are after a NY style pizza dough, autolyse or other rest periods are not common steps used in making such doughs at the commercial level. Terry Deane may have used rest periods but he was making a more artisan type pizza and he also used starter cultures as part of his more artisan approach. I do not believe that he used a classic autolyse.

My advice is to start simple and go with a straight dough, along the lines that scott123 recommends.

Peter

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2011, 01:00:53 PM »
Thanks for the reply guys
Scott, I agree with you that I should just start with the 11% and simultaneously seek for a better flour
Eventhough this won't be the first time I have made pizza dough, reading all the information on this site messes with my head, and now I'm more than confused about the procedure of my dough making
I can't decide WHEN to cut the the batch into 2 balls (I plan to make a batch of 2 13.3" pizzas, roughly)
I always thought that it should be done right after the dough was kneaded and ready to rest, but now I see that some of you (Mike included) only cut it after like 24 hours? and then letting it rest even further? I'm confused...  what is the difference? how does it affect the outcome? and what method should I be following?!
Followed by this question, I can't decide HOW long I should let my dough rest for, will 24 suffice? longer? shorter? and ofcourse, it should be in correspondingly to the amount of yeast (more yeast= shorter rest, less yeast= longer rest, letting the dough time to develop)
you guys said I should go for 0.5% IDY, what is the sufficient rest time for this kind of amount?

Peter, thanks to you I now know I should back off the autolyse, and both you and Scott have mentioned that you think dry-to-wet is the way to go, so this part is also covered for me.
another thing, though, Scott, you said my 11% flour isn't gonna suffice for this kind of thin pizza, so my question is, should I STILL put 0.085 in the calculation for my dough?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 01:05:14 PM by DoughFoSho »

Online scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 02:49:06 PM »
Shahar,

Mix
Knead
Ball
Refrigerate 1 to 2 days (for best results)
Allow to warm up
Bake

Mike put some time in before balling, because, as I said earlier, at that point in the thread he hadn't made pizza much and was using unorthodox approaches.  If you keep reading, you'll see he eventually loses the pre-balling ferment (also called a 'bulk' ferment).

Quote
more yeast= shorter rest, less yeast= longer rest

Yes.  Also:

more yeast= cooler rest, less yeast= warmer rest

Also, just to be clear, the term 'rest' is usually used in the context of either pauses in kneading or, later in the process, after you've worked with the dough and the gluten is tight, the dough is given a 'rest.'  When it comes to the time it takes for the dough to rise- that's called a ferment, or a proof.

Pizza01

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 03:14:23 PM »
I dont know if its because of the israeli flour or somthing else but almost every time i had better result with room temp rise. Without cooling at the fridge. I hope you will get better result in cold rise then mine shahar.

Online scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 03:19:53 PM »
Cold rises do favor enzyme activity, and enzymes, to an extent, break down the proteins in the flour, so weaker flours may not cold ferment as well as stronger ones do.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 03:27:41 PM by scott123 »

Pizza01

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 03:31:06 PM »
That explain why most of the pizzarias in israel use warm rise. Exept chains that i am sure that they add things to the dough.
Many time that i am reading in the forum i want pizza and fast, so i call dominos. I am vip client and kind of virtual friend of the manger/owner of the store. So i figure why not ask them?
So i text him now. What kind of flour are they using?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 03:36:56 PM by msheetrit »


Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2011, 03:59:48 PM »
Ok thanks Scott, this is what I thought to go for but as I said, overload of info overwhelmed me :-D

Michael; thanks for your Stybel experienced tip, I'll adopt that and let my dough proof outside of the fridge, and to be honest, it's pretty cold here in Ashdod, so I do think 'room' temp is the way to go on this one

Also, how long should the Stybel flour be kneaded for? (with a dough hook, in-case of a mixer, because I might use one this time)
I also direct this question at you guys; based on the stybel nutritional facts I have posted, how long should I knead it for to meet the required time for the gluten to develop but not over-do it?

Scott and the rest of you guys, you still havn't answered my question (or wonder, to be exact);
Since this flour isn't sufficient to meet the required thickness level of an NY pizza, maybe I shouldn't insert "0.085" in the dough calculator? wouldn't it be too thin for a 11% flour?

I will probably change it if you guys advise so, when answering my thickness level question, but so far I think my next batch will be the following:
thickness level .1 with the following;
Flour (100%)
Water (60%)
IDY (0.5%)
Salt (1.7%)
Oil (1%)
Sugar (2%)
Total (165.2%)

I also have an off-topic (to this thread) question, if you guys don't mind
I just made my sauce, and while I was at it I was wondering a few things that I thought I'd share
first off, I mixed (blender) my entire ingredients together (tomato can, sugar, oregano etc etc etc) WITHOUT olive oil, what I did was heat a pot on the lowest heat, put about 1.5 tbs olive oil and then my mixed tomato sauce, for a few minutes, to give the sauce more of a thick texture. (and now it's in the fridge, let all the flavours come together)
And this is where my question goes... I know you guys use your lovely 6in1 cans and don't cook your sauces at all,
but in general, what do you think of my sauce proccess? would you recommend I changed anything? Should I have just mixed the olive oil along with the rest of the ingredients and then avoid cooking? It's just that I was scared my sauce will not be thick enough to fit as a pizza sauce.

What is the more common way?

And thanks everyone once again for making this whole thing easier for me ^_^

EDIT:
Awesome, Michael, I just read your new post, thanks for asking Domino's, let us know please
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:02:02 PM by DoughFoSho »

Online scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2011, 04:20:33 PM »
.085 thickness factor shouldn't be too thin for 11% flour.  If you're not used to stretching dough, .085 can be a bit tricky, but, with practice, you'll get the hang of it.

Rather than cooking your sauce, try to find tomato puree or crushed tomatoes that are thick enough to be used uncooked.  There's also the option of crushing whole tomatoes, but that's a bit more work.

For NY style, I generally recommending kneading to a point where the dough is halfway between a cottage cheese appearance and smooth.  For reference, here is a photo of cottage cheese:

http://www.healthalternatives2000.com/images/cottagecheese.jpg

I've been focusing a lot on flour because that's the largest barrier for international pizzamakers, but, by far, the biggest barrier for pizzamakers in general, regardless of location, is oven setup. Could you take another look at Michael's oven related questions?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:40:05 PM by scott123 »

Pizza01

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2011, 04:55:29 PM »
Ok first of all shahar, i live 20 minutes from you, ashqelon.
Elad from pizza dominos text me back that he wil find out tommarow about the flour.so i asked him.
They get the dough ball ready from the factory/bakery every morning .  shahar would know the name- angel.
So that is exatly what i suspected. The balls dont go to fridge at all! And also that angel put inside some baking enzime.
And i suspect even add wheat vital protein powder.
Just like i suspected and with what scott wrote= cald rise is not good for the israeli flour.
So... I made batch for 24 hours  room temp rise for tommarows pizza  :)
100% b flour
60% cold water 19cl deg
2.5% salt
0.085 % cake yeast.
Just like in the old keste clone days. I miss the taste and airy crust.

Shahar, from scott i learned how to preheat my stone 90 minute and since then i have the best result and ovenspring ever. I will never go back.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:08:08 PM by msheetrit »

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2011, 06:23:14 PM »
Ok thanks Scott and Michael,
Micheal, 19cl degree?!?!? I think it's too cold, don't you o_o
and also 0.085% yeast O: that's so little
curious to see your pizza outcome [=

EDIT: Also, Michael, how long did you knead your dough for in this batch?

Scott
I forgot to reply to Micheal oven questions,
I also have been meaning to mention that my ovens highest temp is "9" (which means 475 F according to some googling)
I know it's pretty low but I hope you arn't about to tell me it's awful D: That's why I plan to preheat my oven about 75min prior to baking the pizza, as I read in this forum

I place my stone in the lowest place for sheets, NOT on the ovens floor, because I read that that kind of touch can be harmful for the oven (maybe you guys can confirm this) and that oven stones shouldn't ly on the oven, so I placed a net on the lowest possible sheet drawer, and placed the stone on it.

This is the oven mark I use:
http://i43.tinypic.com/dc3kaq.jpg
Sorry for the low quality pic, I don't have my Galaxy S2 just yet
It's some sun surrounded by a circle, I think it's called turbo mode? Perhaps pizza mode? not sure, but I once tried to search in google and came up with a similar pic so I chose this one for my bakings

btw, we're ahead of huge constructions in our house, and we will also get a new oven soon
so you might wanna advise me later how to pick the right baking oven
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:27:21 PM by DoughFoSho »

buceriasdon

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2011, 07:08:00 PM »
Shahar, Can you hear a fan moving on that oven setting you speak of? If so that is what we call a convection oven setting, simply meaning a fan blows the hot air around inside the oven. In my oven, perhaps not yours, but in my oven it creates uneven heat, not a good thing for baking pizza.
Don

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2011, 07:19:36 PM »
I also have been meaning to mention that my ovens highest temp is "9" (which means 475 F according to some googling)
I know it's pretty low but I hope you arn't about to tell me it's awful D:

What other adjective would you like me to use? Horrible?  Catastrophic?  Abysmal?  ;D

I'm sorry, Shahar, but 475 is not going to give you a great pizza.  How soon before you buy the new oven?

With the right stone and a gentle oven mod of maybe 75 degrees, you might be alright, but you're going to need an IR thermometer and you'll have to go stone shopping.

Btw, this is an electric oven, correct?

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2011, 07:40:44 PM »
EDIT since Scott replied while I was typing down this post:
EW D: D: So I'm in worse shape than I thought ]=
We are about to relocate for about 2-3months to let the constructions take place (in matter of a couple roughly), we should move out pretty soon, and by the time we get back we will have the new oven, so it is going ot take a while =[
And yes, Scott, it is electric

Yes Don, here are pictures of both the fan (which does work on this mode) and the location of my stone which explains everything I just said about its location:
http://i44.tinypic.com/3479rab.jpg

And, I photoshop'd the modes in the oven that don't put the fan to use, I'm not too sure about the meaning of the first one
http://i42.tinypic.com/2lxjoqr.jpg
do you recognize any of those which I should use? o_o Because I assume that oven marks are pretty much international in their meanings, perhaps a different drawing here and there, but in general- same idea
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 07:48:14 PM by DoughFoSho »

buceriasdon

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2011, 07:46:14 PM »
Shahar, Looking at your pic I wouldn't use convection mode, the rear most will bake the top much too quickly. Forget the fan, fan bad. Even, good. For now I would use = both upper and lower elements heated.
Don
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 07:49:13 PM by buceriasdon »

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2011, 07:51:54 PM »
Ok, Thanks! I'm really lucky you asked me that question about the fan, otherwise I'd be more than sure I've been using the right mode
Eventhough that I'm bummed out about Scotts post, lol =[ I now got the right mode but the wrong oven.. goddamn _

Any clue what the 1st mode in my pics means. btw? Because if it were simply the opposite mode of the 3rd one in the pic, why would it have this different drawing to it? Ya know what I mean?
And what kind of modes do you guys use? what is drawn for this specific mode you guys use? I'm curious
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 07:55:10 PM by DoughFoSho »

Online scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2011, 07:58:16 PM »
Shahar, to produce something Essen1-ish, yes, you've got a problem.  We do have members in the forum that have managed to make some pretty respectable pizzas with only cooler ovens at their disposal.  The undisputed heavyweight champion of the lower temp oven pizza is Peter (Pete-zza).  We can work on a better stone and a gentle oven mod, but in the mean time, I would start looking at Peter's recipes.

And, while I agree with Don that using the fan to bake the pizza is not a good idea, the fan does help to pre-heat the stone a bit quicker. Use the fan for the pre-heat, but not during the bake.


 

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