Author Topic: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions  (Read 4451 times)

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Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2011, 01:00:53 PM »
Thanks for the reply guys
Scott, I agree with you that I should just start with the 11% and simultaneously seek for a better flour
Eventhough this won't be the first time I have made pizza dough, reading all the information on this site messes with my head, and now I'm more than confused about the procedure of my dough making
I can't decide WHEN to cut the the batch into 2 balls (I plan to make a batch of 2 13.3" pizzas, roughly)
I always thought that it should be done right after the dough was kneaded and ready to rest, but now I see that some of you (Mike included) only cut it after like 24 hours? and then letting it rest even further? I'm confused...  what is the difference? how does it affect the outcome? and what method should I be following?!
Followed by this question, I can't decide HOW long I should let my dough rest for, will 24 suffice? longer? shorter? and ofcourse, it should be in correspondingly to the amount of yeast (more yeast= shorter rest, less yeast= longer rest, letting the dough time to develop)
you guys said I should go for 0.5% IDY, what is the sufficient rest time for this kind of amount?

Peter, thanks to you I now know I should back off the autolyse, and both you and Scott have mentioned that you think dry-to-wet is the way to go, so this part is also covered for me.
another thing, though, Scott, you said my 11% flour isn't gonna suffice for this kind of thin pizza, so my question is, should I STILL put 0.085 in the calculation for my dough?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 01:05:14 PM by DoughFoSho »


scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 02:49:06 PM »
Shahar,

Mix
Knead
Ball
Refrigerate 1 to 2 days (for best results)
Allow to warm up
Bake

Mike put some time in before balling, because, as I said earlier, at that point in the thread he hadn't made pizza much and was using unorthodox approaches.  If you keep reading, you'll see he eventually loses the pre-balling ferment (also called a 'bulk' ferment).

Quote
more yeast= shorter rest, less yeast= longer rest

Yes.  Also:

more yeast= cooler rest, less yeast= warmer rest

Also, just to be clear, the term 'rest' is usually used in the context of either pauses in kneading or, later in the process, after you've worked with the dough and the gluten is tight, the dough is given a 'rest.'  When it comes to the time it takes for the dough to rise- that's called a ferment, or a proof.

Pizza01

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 03:14:23 PM »
I dont know if its because of the israeli flour or somthing else but almost every time i had better result with room temp rise. Without cooling at the fridge. I hope you will get better result in cold rise then mine shahar.

scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 03:19:53 PM »
Cold rises do favor enzyme activity, and enzymes, to an extent, break down the proteins in the flour, so weaker flours may not cold ferment as well as stronger ones do.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 03:27:41 PM by scott123 »

Pizza01

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 03:31:06 PM »
That explain why most of the pizzarias in israel use warm rise. Exept chains that i am sure that they add things to the dough.
Many time that i am reading in the forum i want pizza and fast, so i call dominos. I am vip client and kind of virtual friend of the manger/owner of the store. So i figure why not ask them?
So i text him now. What kind of flour are they using?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 03:36:56 PM by msheetrit »

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2011, 03:59:48 PM »
Ok thanks Scott, this is what I thought to go for but as I said, overload of info overwhelmed me :-D

Michael; thanks for your Stybel experienced tip, I'll adopt that and let my dough proof outside of the fridge, and to be honest, it's pretty cold here in Ashdod, so I do think 'room' temp is the way to go on this one

Also, how long should the Stybel flour be kneaded for? (with a dough hook, in-case of a mixer, because I might use one this time)
I also direct this question at you guys; based on the stybel nutritional facts I have posted, how long should I knead it for to meet the required time for the gluten to develop but not over-do it?

Scott and the rest of you guys, you still havn't answered my question (or wonder, to be exact);
Since this flour isn't sufficient to meet the required thickness level of an NY pizza, maybe I shouldn't insert "0.085" in the dough calculator? wouldn't it be too thin for a 11% flour?

I will probably change it if you guys advise so, when answering my thickness level question, but so far I think my next batch will be the following:
thickness level .1 with the following;
Flour (100%)
Water (60%)
IDY (0.5%)
Salt (1.7%)
Oil (1%)
Sugar (2%)
Total (165.2%)

I also have an off-topic (to this thread) question, if you guys don't mind
I just made my sauce, and while I was at it I was wondering a few things that I thought I'd share
first off, I mixed (blender) my entire ingredients together (tomato can, sugar, oregano etc etc etc) WITHOUT olive oil, what I did was heat a pot on the lowest heat, put about 1.5 tbs olive oil and then my mixed tomato sauce, for a few minutes, to give the sauce more of a thick texture. (and now it's in the fridge, let all the flavours come together)
And this is where my question goes... I know you guys use your lovely 6in1 cans and don't cook your sauces at all,
but in general, what do you think of my sauce proccess? would you recommend I changed anything? Should I have just mixed the olive oil along with the rest of the ingredients and then avoid cooking? It's just that I was scared my sauce will not be thick enough to fit as a pizza sauce.

What is the more common way?

And thanks everyone once again for making this whole thing easier for me ^_^

EDIT:
Awesome, Michael, I just read your new post, thanks for asking Domino's, let us know please
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:02:02 PM by DoughFoSho »

scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2011, 04:20:33 PM »
.085 thickness factor shouldn't be too thin for 11% flour.  If you're not used to stretching dough, .085 can be a bit tricky, but, with practice, you'll get the hang of it.

Rather than cooking your sauce, try to find tomato puree or crushed tomatoes that are thick enough to be used uncooked.  There's also the option of crushing whole tomatoes, but that's a bit more work.

For NY style, I generally recommending kneading to a point where the dough is halfway between a cottage cheese appearance and smooth.  For reference, here is a photo of cottage cheese:

http://www.healthalternatives2000.com/images/cottagecheese.jpg

I've been focusing a lot on flour because that's the largest barrier for international pizzamakers, but, by far, the biggest barrier for pizzamakers in general, regardless of location, is oven setup. Could you take another look at Michael's oven related questions?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:40:05 PM by scott123 »

Pizza01

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2011, 04:55:29 PM »
Ok first of all shahar, i live 20 minutes from you, ashqelon.
Elad from pizza dominos text me back that he wil find out tommarow about the flour.so i asked him.
They get the dough ball ready from the factory/bakery every morning .  shahar would know the name- angel.
So that is exatly what i suspected. The balls dont go to fridge at all! And also that angel put inside some baking enzime.
And i suspect even add wheat vital protein powder.
Just like i suspected and with what scott wrote= cald rise is not good for the israeli flour.
So... I made batch for 24 hours  room temp rise for tommarows pizza  :)
100% b flour
60% cold water 19cl deg
2.5% salt
0.085 % cake yeast.
Just like in the old keste clone days. I miss the taste and airy crust.

Shahar, from scott i learned how to preheat my stone 90 minute and since then i have the best result and ovenspring ever. I will never go back.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:08:08 PM by msheetrit »

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2011, 06:23:14 PM »
Ok thanks Scott and Michael,
Micheal, 19cl degree?!?!? I think it's too cold, don't you o_o
and also 0.085% yeast O: that's so little
curious to see your pizza outcome [=

EDIT: Also, Michael, how long did you knead your dough for in this batch?

Scott
I forgot to reply to Micheal oven questions,
I also have been meaning to mention that my ovens highest temp is "9" (which means 475 F according to some googling)
I know it's pretty low but I hope you arn't about to tell me it's awful D: That's why I plan to preheat my oven about 75min prior to baking the pizza, as I read in this forum

I place my stone in the lowest place for sheets, NOT on the ovens floor, because I read that that kind of touch can be harmful for the oven (maybe you guys can confirm this) and that oven stones shouldn't ly on the oven, so I placed a net on the lowest possible sheet drawer, and placed the stone on it.

This is the oven mark I use:
http://i43.tinypic.com/dc3kaq.jpg
Sorry for the low quality pic, I don't have my Galaxy S2 just yet
It's some sun surrounded by a circle, I think it's called turbo mode? Perhaps pizza mode? not sure, but I once tried to search in google and came up with a similar pic so I chose this one for my bakings

btw, we're ahead of huge constructions in our house, and we will also get a new oven soon
so you might wanna advise me later how to pick the right baking oven
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:27:21 PM by DoughFoSho »


buceriasdon

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2011, 07:08:00 PM »
Shahar, Can you hear a fan moving on that oven setting you speak of? If so that is what we call a convection oven setting, simply meaning a fan blows the hot air around inside the oven. In my oven, perhaps not yours, but in my oven it creates uneven heat, not a good thing for baking pizza.
Don

scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2011, 07:19:36 PM »
I also have been meaning to mention that my ovens highest temp is "9" (which means 475 F according to some googling)
I know it's pretty low but I hope you arn't about to tell me it's awful D:

What other adjective would you like me to use? Horrible?  Catastrophic?  Abysmal?  ;D

I'm sorry, Shahar, but 475 is not going to give you a great pizza.  How soon before you buy the new oven?

With the right stone and a gentle oven mod of maybe 75 degrees, you might be alright, but you're going to need an IR thermometer and you'll have to go stone shopping.

Btw, this is an electric oven, correct?

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2011, 07:40:44 PM »
EDIT since Scott replied while I was typing down this post:
EW D: D: So I'm in worse shape than I thought ]=
We are about to relocate for about 2-3months to let the constructions take place (in matter of a couple roughly), we should move out pretty soon, and by the time we get back we will have the new oven, so it is going ot take a while =[
And yes, Scott, it is electric

Yes Don, here are pictures of both the fan (which does work on this mode) and the location of my stone which explains everything I just said about its location:
http://i44.tinypic.com/3479rab.jpg

And, I photoshop'd the modes in the oven that don't put the fan to use, I'm not too sure about the meaning of the first one
http://i42.tinypic.com/2lxjoqr.jpg
do you recognize any of those which I should use? o_o Because I assume that oven marks are pretty much international in their meanings, perhaps a different drawing here and there, but in general- same idea
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 07:48:14 PM by DoughFoSho »

buceriasdon

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2011, 07:46:14 PM »
Shahar, Looking at your pic I wouldn't use convection mode, the rear most will bake the top much too quickly. Forget the fan, fan bad. Even, good. For now I would use = both upper and lower elements heated.
Don
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 07:49:13 PM by buceriasdon »

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2011, 07:51:54 PM »
Ok, Thanks! I'm really lucky you asked me that question about the fan, otherwise I'd be more than sure I've been using the right mode
Eventhough that I'm bummed out about Scotts post, lol =[ I now got the right mode but the wrong oven.. goddamn _

Any clue what the 1st mode in my pics means. btw? Because if it were simply the opposite mode of the 3rd one in the pic, why would it have this different drawing to it? Ya know what I mean?
And what kind of modes do you guys use? what is drawn for this specific mode you guys use? I'm curious
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 07:55:10 PM by DoughFoSho »

scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2011, 07:58:16 PM »
Shahar, to produce something Essen1-ish, yes, you've got a problem.  We do have members in the forum that have managed to make some pretty respectable pizzas with only cooler ovens at their disposal.  The undisputed heavyweight champion of the lower temp oven pizza is Peter (Pete-zza).  We can work on a better stone and a gentle oven mod, but in the mean time, I would start looking at Peter's recipes.

And, while I agree with Don that using the fan to bake the pizza is not a good idea, the fan does help to pre-heat the stone a bit quicker. Use the fan for the pre-heat, but not during the bake.

scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2011, 08:00:57 PM »
Any clue what the 1st mode in my pics means. btw? Because if it were simply the opposite mode of the 3rd one in the pic, why would it have this different drawing to it? Ya know what I mean?
And what kind of modes do you guys use? what is drawn for this specific mode you guys use? I'm curious

Your guess is as good as mine. Did the oven come with a manual?

As far as the modes I use, I use bake (bottom element) for the pre-heat, then turn the broiler on during the last two minutes of a four minute bake.

buceriasdon

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2011, 08:13:17 PM »
The first mode is what we call a broiler. Only the top heating element is on. Shahar, pizza baking is a balancing act between the correct amount of top and bottom heat. Too little of one or the other leads to the top half of the pizza being not properly baked while the lower half is over baked or vice versa. It's a matter of getting to know what your oven can or more importantly cannot do. It's a matter of baking pizzas and trying different methods to find the one that works for you with YOUR oven.
Don

Any clue what the 1st mode in my pics means. btw? Because if it were simply the opposite mode of the 3rd one in the pic, why would it have this different drawing to it? Ya know what I mean?
And what kind of modes do you guys use? what is drawn for this specific mode you guys use? I'm curious


Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2011, 08:27:31 PM »
Thanks for the tip of letting the convection mode do the preheating, Scott,
Also, given the fact my oven is 475, will 75 preheat be sufficient? or should I go longer than that?

Don, I don't think there is that much to it (or should I say I don't hope so), I mean, we just confirmed I only have 3 non-fan modes, broiler, bottom and even
Wouldn't that mean I should just preheat the oven (using the convection mode), then bake the pizza using the even mode? Or are you implying that you arn't sure about the even mode being the best way to go for my baking, and that it might aswell be bottom/broiler and that I should experiment?

Scott, where can I find the said recipes by Peter? Also, dealing with a lower temperature oven, in practical terms, what does this mean? how does it change the procedure? would one have to use more/less ingredients? (if you take the formula I intended to use - Flour (100%) Water (60%) IDY (0.5%) Salt (1.7%) Oil (1%) Sugar (2%) for example)

Thanks
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 08:31:36 PM by DoughFoSho »

buceriasdon

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2011, 07:27:57 AM »
Shahar, Experimenting to find the right combination of dough to oven is exactly what I am saying. You may find just using the low element works best, no one knows for sure how your particular oven will work best for pizza. In order to experiment you first have to make some dough and then form the skin, place toppings and then bake. Reading about the process is all well and good but you need to start working with some mass. Get out to the kitchen and make some pizza. Have you recipe close at hand so you don't leave out something and go for it. Take notes for future reference. Hands on experience is the best teacher.
Don


Don, I don't think there is that much to it (or should I say I don't hope so), I mean, we just confirmed I only have 3 non-fan modes, broiler, bottom and even
Wouldn't that mean I should just preheat the oven (using the convection mode), then bake the pizza using the even mode? Or are you implying that you arn't sure about the even mode being the best way to go for my baking, and that it might aswell be bottom/broiler and that I should experiment?

Scott, where can I find the said recipes by Peter? Also, dealing with a lower temperature oven, in practical terms, what does this mean? how does it change the procedure? would one have to use more/less ingredients? (if you take the formula I intended to use - Flour (100%) Water (60%) IDY (0.5%) Salt (1.7%) Oil (1%) Sugar (2%) for example)

Thanks

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2011, 09:46:20 AM »
Ok, made a batch of 60% water 1.7% salt 2% sugar 0.5% idy, only thing tho, my original calculator also included 1% olive oil, which I forgot to write down as I went to the kitchen, but no biggie

This was a 2 dough batch of 0.085 TF, devided the dough by 2, one was 328g, the other- 329g.
I'll get back to one of them in 24 hours [=

scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2011, 10:02:54 AM »
Shahar, you have a relatively thick stone which is going to take a while to pre-heat.  It really depends on the oven as to how long it will take to pre-heat, though. Some ovens are powerful and some are weak.  You might be able to get away with less time, but, for now, go with 90 minutes.

Use bake w/ convection for the pre-heat, then use the broiler for the bake.  With the thickness of the stone, having the bottom element on while the pizza is baking will have no impact.

I was kind of hoping Peter would chime in with his favorite pizza recipe, but I think his Papa John clone is one of his more popular formulations:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html

It works well at lower temps because the high quantity of oil tends to produce a tender crumb and good oven spring. I don't thing there are any hard and fast rules about thickness, so, if you wanted something a bit more NYish, you could dial back the thickness factor a bit.

The formula you're working with would be an excellent jumping off point for your flour, IF you had an oven that could get hot enough. Since you've already made the dough, you might as well bake it. You never know, although the "9" setting is supposed to be 475 according to google, perhaps your oven might run a bit hotter.  Give it a shot.

Eventually you'll want an infrared thermometer to confirm the temp of the stone prior to baking.  Here's one that I recommend that will work well for the style you're interested in.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/digital-infrared-thermometer-with-laser-sight-32-c-380-c-26-f-716-f-29079

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2011, 11:05:50 AM »
Thanks for the comment!
I like your point of how bottom heat will have no effect due to my stone thickness, that makes sense
Secondly, you're basically saying that lower temp- alot of olive oil, so I guess I'm really screwed I havn't used olive oil at all then, huh? :\
How do you think it will affect the outcome? (Eventhough I'll get to see it tomorrow, but I kinda want to know what to expect)

As for the InfraRed, THANKS! I appreciate you going through the trouble of also finding me a link,
a couple questions, though
What temp do I aim for, using this InfraRed gun? I mean, what temp should my oven be at when I start baking the pizza? Because I know Chamotte stones they can get to very high temperatures, even 3X the highest temp of the oven
(Also, if I do purchase it, I will still have use for it with my new oven, right? You guys use IR aswell?)

Btw, speaking of hardware, my scale is 5KG/1g, and I, by accident, bumped into this 2pound/0.1g pocket scale in dealextreme (and found similar ones on eBay) for like 8$
Should I get one of those? because mine is 1g minimum, or do you think it isn't that big of a deal and I should just stick to my 5K/1g one?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 11:45:44 AM by DoughFoSho »

scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2011, 11:50:00 AM »
Shahar, right now, you want to pre-heat the stone to the highest temp the oven will go. You probably already know this, but, just in case you don't, all electric ovens have probes that measure the temp in the oven.  When choosing a setting on the dial, the probe monitors the oven temps, so when the oven reaches that temp, the probe tells the thermostat and the thermostat shuts the heating element off.  The oven then will start to cool a bit, and the thermostat will turn the heating element on again. Over the course of a long pre-heat, the heating element cycles on and off many times and the temperature in the oven will hover in about a 50-75 (Fahrenheit)  degree range. This 50-75 range is the maximum temperature you can pre-heat your stone to and no higher, regardless of the stone's position in the oven.  The only way to get a higher temp is to have an oven with a higher setting or to shield the probe in such a way that it doesn't get hot, aka, an oven trick.

As far as baking stones go, the chamotte stone you have is pretty good.  The stones sold in stores in the U.S. are a lot thinner and don't work as well.  If the new oven you purchase gets hot enough (600ish F), then I would suggest continuing to use your current stone, but if the peak temp is lower, then I'd suggest getting something more conductive like 1/2" steel plate.

Most of the people who join this forum just want the simplest and easiest route to good pizza and don't really want to know all the ins and outs or approaches to make the most perfect pie possible. It tends to be an anti-intellectual, very hands on approach. You, on the other hand, seem to want to understand absolutely everything before the pizza hits the stone.  I applaud your excitement and your thirst for knowledge, and, as long as you ask questions, I'm going to answer them, but I think Don's got the right idea. Research will only get you so far. You'll learn a lot more, at this point, by making pizzas then you will by understanding every little nuance of the process. Most of the time, I'm trying to get people to run, but, in your instance, I think some walking is in order  ;D
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 12:17:45 PM by scott123 »

scott123

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2011, 11:56:14 AM »
Here's the reigning .1 accuracy scale of choice

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SC3LLS/?tag=pizzamaking-20

I'm not sure what shipping to Israel would be, though.

Offline DoughFoSho

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Re: How much flour in a specific-sized pie? A couple questions
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2011, 12:19:11 PM »
Scott, thanks for the reply as always
Yes, I'm a perfectionist and in addition I like to know the reason behind things (actually I think perfectionism includes that in, lol) and not just act like a robot. This is why I'm such a pain in the ass and can't settle with less than perfect when I do things. Some would count this as a disadvantage, and it does get annoying sometimes, but I'm ok with it D:

This is why after joining this forum, it took me that long to make a batch, because I read so many things that have led me to change my procedure, searching for the flour and the rest of the things, ofcourse, and I agree with Don and you, and as I said; I already made a batch today, but as for now- all I can do is wait, because I let it proof for 24hours, right? ^_^

As for the scale, I don't think you understood my question
I know how to find those, I said I did,
here's one from DX, http://www.dealextreme.com/p/digital-pocket-scale-2lb-1kg-1165 (you can check their videos aswell)
aswell as if you search eBay for "digital scales" you will find many more alike.
Where to purchase them was not my question, I was wondering whether I should or shouldn't bother getting one of those, as I already have my scale, but mine goes by 1g devision and NOT 0.1g as this one (eventhough mine goes up to 5KG unlike those pocket ones, but we don't weight that much anyway)
So I was asking if you think I should get this kind of a scale or just stick to mine

Also, Scott
I found that this whole gas marks in the oven are pretty controversial. Even Wikipedia says so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_Mark
Quote
Different manufacturers and oven types do vary, so this table cannot be relied upon; instead, cooks should refer to the cooker instruction book for the oven type used, or calibrate the scale using an oven thermometer.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061004073925AAta5mp
As you can see my Oven 9 gas mark can might aswell be 260CL which is 500F
I'll try to find this ovens model number and look for its manual online, but I think I have tried that already and failed
Worth a shot
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 12:25:19 PM by DoughFoSho »