Author Topic: Baker's Pride model P22S (Read 1628 times)

kerrymarcy · « **on:** November 28, 2011, 10:40:06 AM »

I have a chance to buy a Baker's Pride Model P22S It has two hearthstone decks and can reach temp of 680*. Would I have adequate success in making NY and Naples crusts? Here is the link to specs sheet:
http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/Hearthbake_P22S_BL.pdf

Thanks Much,
Kerry

The Dough Doctor · « **Reply #1 on:** November 28, 2011, 11:44:14 AM »

Kerry;
The oven you're looking to buy, is it new or used?
Do you have a dedicated 208-V circuit that you can plug it into?
The oven should work just fine otherwise.
I see these being used in bars from time to time.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

scott123 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 28, 2011, 12:08:31 PM »

NY, possibly, Naples, not a chance.

These Baker's Pride countertop ovens tend to have really thin stones and the single thermostat controller can make dialing in the top/bottom heat ratio a bit difficult.

These may carry the 'Baker's Pride' label, but they don't carry the 'Baker's Pride' deck oven quality of years past.

Unless you're getting an amazing deal, the SAGE Chinese ovens are comparably priced, are of higher quality and will do NY without any issue. Assuming you're dead set on shelling out a few hundred dollars on a countertop. Most home ovens, with the right stone, will do NY pizza just as well and some will do Naples also.

kerrymarcy · « **Reply #3 on:** November 28, 2011, 01:14:21 PM »

Thank you guys for the input!
I can put a 208-V circuit in my kitchen with not too much difficulty. This oven is slightly used but in very good working shape as the restaurant is going out of business. My biggest issue is that I want to make some of your NY and Naples doughs and be able to achieve good results. What type of stone should be used, and can I modify this oven to accept such a stone? What is the best stone to use in my home oven? Thanks!

Kerry

scott123 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 28, 2011, 03:34:24 PM »

Kerry, this oven goes for $1500 new. If you're paying a cent over $500, imo, it's not worth it.

There's a chance that you could put 3/8" steel plate decks in, position them extremely close to the broiling element and eek out a Neapolitan-ish bake time, but I wouldn't put money on it. Out of getting a Neapolitan bake out of this versus a traditional oven, both are going to be especially difficult, but my money's on the traditional oven. This has no problem from a hearth perspective (combined with steel), but the broiler is a question mark. Since it's made for NY style pizza and the broiler is already about 3" from the hearth, it's not like you can decrease that vertical space much to increase the impact from the broiler.

For NY in an electric home oven, 1/2" steel plate is the reigning champ. Gas get's a little trickier. For Neapolitan in an electric home oven, 3/4" steel plate is the theoretical winner. So far, a celebrity chef author has done it and one forum member has ordered the plate, but it's still in it's preliminary stages of real world testing.

kerrymarcy · « **Reply #5 on:** November 28, 2011, 05:25:39 PM »

Scott,

Thanks for the input. The oven that I am looking at is $500.00 It is in very good shape, but if I am limited to what I can make with it, I would be better off putting that money toward something nicer like a wood burner. I am very interested in these metal plates. I remember reading about them somewhere in this forum, but If you could fill me a bit more about these plates, I would be grateful. Thanks!

Kerry

scott123 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 28, 2011, 06:24:59 PM »

$500 is pretty reasonable, especially if it's in good shape, but I agree, you're better off putting that money towards something better. Both the quality and the range of bake times it can produce are question marks, imo.

The plate that I'm referring to is A36 hot rolled steel plate found here:

http://www.onlinemetalstore.com/items/A36_Hot_Rolled_Steel_Plate.cfm

This is readily available at a local metal supplier. Just look up steel in the yellow pages.

The power of steel plate is that it's conductivity allows for much faster heat transfer, which, in turn, allows it produce much faster bakes at typical home oven temps. Basically, 1/2" steel plate preheated to 550 can mimic the effect, hearth wise, of a 1.5" thick cordierite deck in a commercial pizza oven preheated to 650. 3/4" steel plate at 550-600, because of the extra thermal mass, can mimic the 2" firebrick floor of a Neapolitan woodburning oven at 850.

The only real downside to steel plate is that it can be heavy. Most oven shelves have no problem supporting 1/2" steel plate, but 3/4" can be too much to handle. In order to work with 3/4" you basically have to remove the shelf from the equation and fashion your own support of an angle steel, running from shelf lip to shelf lip.

Both approaches are less than $100 scenarios, so, rather than spending either $500 or $5000 on any type of oven, wood fired or otherwise, it's worth the expenditure, especially for NY, as that's developing a fairly loyal following.

kerrymarcy · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2011, 08:48:51 PM »

Thanks Scott,

I like the idea of a cheaper alternative if it does what people proclaim it does. I have a buddy of mine in the metal fab business and I think that he would cut me one plate at a bargain price. If I were to try a 3/4" plate, what size square do you suggest? Should it be the A36 steel as mentioned at Online Metal Store? Do think any toxins will leech into the pizza? Thanks for the wisdom!

Kerry

scott123 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2011, 09:00:30 PM »

1. Yes, A36

2. No toxins (same byproducts as cooking with cast iron)

3. NY style favors large pies (16"+) but Neapolitan pies can be a bit smaller. For NY style, I normally recommend people get the largest square stone that their oven can fit (touching the back wall and almost touching the door), but when you get into those dimensions with 3/4" steel, not only are you talking about something that's too heavy for the shelves to handle, but something that could be too heavy for you to handle. 18" x 18" x 3/4" is the best possible size for NY and Naples, but at 70 lb. it's going to be a major pain in the butt to lug around.

I guess, you could get a 16" square plate and make 15" NY pies. 15" is a bit small, but it's not the end of the world, and, although it will be heavy, it won't be the bear that an 18" square plate will be. It will also give you plenty of space for launching Neapolitan. The extra thermal mass (for Neapolitan) won't hurt either.

Btw, just to confirm- you've got an electric oven, right? What temp does it go up to?

kerrymarcy · « **Reply #9 on:** November 28, 2011, 09:20:05 PM »

scott,

I do have an electric convection oven that gets up to about 525-535. I think I might take a look at my racking rails and try to prefab something that can accommodate the weight-probably thinking more like 3/4"x17"x17" to make 15" pies so I don't have toppings dripping on the heating element (Been there and done that). I don't think my taste buds can tell what size pie I'm mowing!!!! Thanks Bud!

Kerry

scott123 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 28, 2011, 09:28:39 PM »

535... eh.

535 + 3/4" steel will do any respectable NY bake time, but for Neapolitan, you're going to need to squeeze a titch more heat out of the oven. There's very gentle/perfectly safe oven mods that will get an extra 25 or so degrees and get you that Neapolitan bake time on the hearth.

kerrymarcy · « **Reply #11 on:** November 28, 2011, 10:01:13 PM »

Scott,

I think I will go ahead and give it a try anyway. What can it hurt? I'm pretty confident my friend can give me a great price on the metal plate. I'll let you know how it works when I follow through in the near future! Thanks for all your help and advice on the oven.

Kerry

scott123 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 29, 2011, 09:43:37 AM »

You're welcome Kerry. I look forward to seeing how the steel plate works out for you.

Btw, if you are going with 17", you want to make absolutely sure that it will fit in your oven. A good way to do that is to cut a piece of cardboard to size and see if the door closes. Be aware of any lips or protrusions that might subtract from the available space.

Here's how one member supported his pizza stone

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12692.msg126602.html#msg126602

Angle iron/steel is a little more sturdy, though, so, for your needs, that's what I'd go with. It's still pretty much the same premise, though- steel bars hanging from the shelf support lips.

kerrymarcy · « **Reply #13 on:** November 29, 2011, 10:22:51 AM »

Scott,

I know that this thread is getting a bit diluted, but what do you think of putting a A36 plate inside that Baker's Pride oven that we were talking about earlier. I wonder if you could just set the plate on top of their stone and preheat for several minutes to achieve desired temp. The vertical working area is 3 1/2" which would accommodate virtually any crust after the metal plate was inserted. I did read your other thread pertaining to steel plates, and as you said, these plates retain and magnify temp. In that thread there was the issue with the bottum of the crust getting done before the the top. Also, it was suggested to place the pizza by the broiler at the very end of bake time to brown the top.
With all of this said, I would think that this baker's Pride oven would be an ideal setup for a plate application. The top heating element would take care of the top while the steel plate would do its work. Maybe then I would be able to get the temp up enough to make Naples pizzas.
Don't know if placing the steel plate on their stone will create any problems with weight, but this would be a relatively functionable oven for less than $600.00. I would ultimately, at some point in time, set my sights on getting a wbo, but probably not for some time so this may suffice for the time being. I'm not bent on spending this money by no means, but I like Naples pizzas and would like to be able to pull it off some how.

Thanks Kerry

scott123 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 29, 2011, 10:35:09 AM »

Kerry, when you bake a Neapolitan pizza, the bottom and the top both have to bake in less than 90 seconds. This means that you have to have a hearth that transfers enough heat to bake the bottom and a fire/dome that radiates enough heat for the top.

In the P22S, with the greater conductivity of the steel, there's absolutely no issue with achieving a Neapolitan bake time on the undercrust. But the broiler's ability to bake the top quickly... that's where I'm doubtful. Radiative heat is a factor of distance. When the top isn't browning quickly enough in an electric oven, the solution is to move the pizza closer to the broiler. In the P22S, though, you really can't move the pizza that much higher with only 3" of vertical space.

In other words, you can take an oven whose primary goal is to bake 3-10 minute pizzas and hack it in such a way that the bottom of the pizza bakes faster (using steel), but there's very little you can do for the top. A pizza where the top finishes baking in 3 minutes isn't Neapolitan pizza.

One caveat. This is a certain amount of conjecture. It's a fairly educated guess, but it's still a guess. Perhaps the broiler in this unit does have enough umph to do a 90 second bake. But, like I said before, I wouldn't bet on it. Does this place have a return policy?

kerrymarcy · « **Reply #15 on:** November 29, 2011, 07:40:11 PM »

Scott,

I guess I was paying too much attention to the bottum of the pizza crust ignoring the fact that this oven may not be powerful enough to finish the top in the desired time. Instead of saying "What ifs", I guess I should just chill out and be a bit more patient and become educated with different dough formulations and cooking times. I surley appreciate your take on this and hope that you can give me some more guidance when needed. I still want to try the steel plate thing when I get around to it maybe after the Holidays.
Thanks Scott!

Kerry

Bobino414 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 29, 2011, 08:35:08 PM »

Hi Kerry

I have an oven similar to the Baker's Pride you are considering.

Although this oven is marketed for a N.Y. style pie (approx 5-6 minute bake), you can also bake a pie in 90 seconds or less for the Neopolitan style. Basically the thermostat needs an attitude adjustment so when the temp dial is set to 550 for example the oven is actually 700 degrees; when set to 700 degrees the oven is about 950. (insert the usual cautionary note; the manufacturer doesn't like or recommend this mod.) At 900 degrees I can incinerate a pie in 45 seconds !!!

These ovens are not zero clearance so it will give off a lot of heat-ok for winter if the oven is inside but not summer. I keep mine in an outside kitchen area that is well protected from the elements.

Regarding the cooking surface-I use Cordierite stones. I have tested many Cordierite stones of varying densities (Thanks to member GSpots) and they all do a good job. If the supplied stones are 1/2" or a little thicker you should do fine. Baking in this thing is all about oven management-balancing stone heat with the broiler element-you should be able to get this part down with some practice. I know that Scott loves steel plate but the balancing act may be more difficult. I have tried aluminum but I didn't like the results, I have not tried steel plate.

$500 seems like a fair price to pay if the oven is in great shape and you don't have to buy new stones but if the stones supplied are 1/4" or less you should replace them. I have seen these ultra thin stones on the 120 volt model.

Bob

Bob

scott123 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 30, 2011, 08:29:36 AM »

Quote from: Bobino414 on November 29, 2011, 08:35:08 PM

I know that Scott loves steel plate but the balancing act may be more difficult.

Bob, I love steel plate, but only in instances where conductivity is a benefit. At 900 degrees, steel plate would burn the bottom of a pizza in less than 15 seconds and you'd end up with completely raw dough in the middle. At very high temps such as this, it can be necessary to handicap the hearth by going with especially less conductive materials such as quarry tile.

I'm curious about the 45 second 'incineration' you're able to do. This incineration involves the bottom and the top of the pizza, correct? Are both sides equally incinerated? This is regular malted flour, right? Can you recall the fermentation time and quantity of sugar in the dough? This was with an additional stone, right, so the vertical gap was a bit smaller, correct? Any idea how much smaller?

If this was a no sugar, malted flour dough and fermented for no more than a day, and the top was truly black in 45 seconds, then I'm a little more open to the idea that this oven can do Neapolitan bake times. Now, whether or not it can withstand frequent 900-ish bakes... that I'm not so sure about- especially considering the clearance aspect. If I were purchasing this oven, I would definitely take it apart and attempt to insulate the wiring a bit better.

kerrymarcy · « **Reply #18 on:** November 30, 2011, 10:19:20 AM »

Bobino, Thanks for the reply, I hear what you are saying and it seems that you have a pretty decent oven after your modification. Speaking for myself, I might be a little hesitant in making these modifications because of the longevity of wiring and heating element. If I spend my hard-earned cash on something that may not last, I would likely hear it from my wife. Maybe its not a problem for this oven to reach and maintain these temp levels after modification with no harm done. How long has your oven been in operation after modification? I would like to see the manufactures specs on max temp. I would be interested in hearing your reply from Scott123 about your dough formulation and if the pizza is indeed cooked evenly top and bottom. Thanks guys!!

Kerry

kerrymarcy · « **Reply #19 on:** November 30, 2011, 10:43:25 AM »

Scott,
Could you throw me one of your favorite dough recipes for my conventional oven. I'm having some people over Friday that like pizza as much as I do. I want to blow their socks off!! I would greatly appreciate your response. I'm not that big on deep dish, as I get full too fast, but any other will do. I live on the Wisconsin, Illinois border, 60 miles from DT Chicago, in cheese country. Going to get some good cheese at Mar's cheese castle http://www.marscheese.com/ a few miles from my home - One of the best in the state for cheese. You should see this place it actually looks like a big castle-must be making a ton of cash! I want to order some Grande mozz. also. From what I been reading, and what you have said about this cheese, it must be pretty awesome stuff. Anybody around my area that sells Grande Thanks much!!

Kerry