Author Topic: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough  (Read 6943 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2011, 11:54:22 PM »
Here is the last day of my experiment, trying to determine what the optimum processes are to achieve the dough I want.

This first pizza is made from a dough ball which was mixed, scaled and balled and left to sit in the refrigerator for 72 hours.  This was baked in my home oven (615 degrees) and took only 3 min 45 seconds to bake.  This pizza was better than the one that sat for 48 hours, but it was a bit chewy for my taste.
John


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 11:57:48 PM »
The second pizza was made from a dough that was balled after mixing, refrigerated 48 hours, reballed, and refrigerated another 24 hours.  Again, baked at 610 degrees, this pizza baked in 3 minutes 45 seconds, and is so superior to the first one it aint funny...it's crispy, light and delicious.

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2011, 12:01:02 AM »
The last pizza is made from a dough that was bulk fermented 48 hours, scaled, then balled and refrigerated another 24 hours.  This is the best of them all, just a notch over the second one...crispy, tender, delicious.
John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2011, 12:09:03 AM »
My final conclusion is that the reballed doughs, and the doughs that are balled after bulk fermentation, make a far better product than those that are balled after mixing and never touched.  Having said that, reballing lower hydration doughs can be alot tougher than working with high hydation doughs.  So, this leads me to believe that balling bulk fermented doughs is really the best way to go.  This opens up a whole other area of experimentation though....what is the perfect amount of time that a dough needs after balling to bake up to the perfect pizza?

John

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6978
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2011, 01:32:58 AM »
John, again nice work.  The last crumb shot is my favorite of the bunch and looks perfect for me.

By any chance Chau, did you write your experiment up, hopfully with pictures....I'd love to read about it!!

John

John, I have the notes in one of my 5 notepads but didn't write this one up or take photos.  This was done about a month ago during a period where I decided to wean myself from posting experiments.  I typically experiment with either bread dough or pizza dough 3-4x a week, sometimes experimenting with up to 3 completely different doughs in one setting.  It's hard enough keeping detailed notes let alone take photos and post everything.  I'm sure you understand.

The pies you describe are very similar to what I call my first perfect pie.  I'm sure you've see that thread.  It too was bulked and balled after 24h of cold fermentation, and then again right before baking because the dough was so slack it was almost liquid.  If you look through that thread, there are crumb shots at the beginning of the thread and towards the end you can compare.  I think your workflow and what I did and other similar workflows produce a certain desirable texture in the crust and crumb.  Btw, what flour are you using again?

Chau


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21596
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2011, 07:28:15 AM »
My final conclusion is that the reballed doughs, and the doughs that are balled after bulk fermentation, make a far better product than those that are balled after mixing and never touched.  Having said that, reballing lower hydration doughs can be alot tougher than working with high hydation doughs.  So, this leads me to believe that balling bulk fermented doughs is really the best way to go.  This opens up a whole other area of experimentation though....what is the perfect amount of time that a dough needs after balling to bake up to the perfect pizza?

John

John,

Your final conclusions are interesting.  Always there is that whole new area of experimentation right?  ďWho knows what the perfect time that a dough needs after balling to make the perfect pizza.Ē  I am sure you will find out if you decide to do more experiments.

Your last pictures of your pies do look perfect to me with that beautiful crumb structure.  :chef:

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline DannyG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 129
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2011, 09:30:21 AM »
John, what type of flour are you using for these experiments?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21898
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2011, 11:34:40 AM »
I think I have convinced myself, that balling a bulk fermented dough, will return the best product possible (at least for what I like).  So, in a commercial setting, I don't see this process adding  a whole lot of steps....since the dough has to be balled either way....of course I'm assuming that taking the dough from the mixer,  and placing it in a container to be refrigerated would be a very minor step.  Maybe I'm missing something.


John,

I don't think you are missing anything. What we don't know, however, is what the results would be if you were to bulk ferment a batch of dough to make 100-200 dough balls, particularly a dough based on a hydration of 55% (a hydration of around 57-58% might be more common in a commercial setting for a Lehmann NY style dough) and using a period of cold fermentation before dividing and scaling. I once conducted some research to find examples where pizza operators bulk fermented large dough batches in their coolers before doing the division. At the time, I found few examples and, in those cases, the main reason for doing the bulk ferment/cold fermentation was because of limited storage capacity. See, for example, the thread at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8555&hilit and, in particular, the post by wa dave (Dave). Since that thread, it looks like wa dave has modified his dough management by bulk fermenting the dough in the cooler for 24-48 hours, dividing into dough balls, and then returning the dough balls to the cooler for processing the next day. This sounds a lot like the experiment you conducted but for a much smaller dough batch. However, as noted in wa dave's recent PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10629&p=73312&hilit=#p73312, he has been having problems with that method as applied to his particular dough formulation. Norma and I spent a lot of time examining wa dave's dough formulation, and I even went so far as to adapt the Lehmann dough formulation that Norma was using at market to incorporate a sour mix such as wa dave uses, as discussed at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg104939.html#msg104939 and elsewhere in the same thread. So, I am familiar with his dough formulation. What I do not know is whether wa dave's problems are due to his dough management or his formulation, or possibly both. So, much remains to be seen.

None of the above detracts from the experiments you conducted in a home setting with a few dough balls. What you did, and what Chau confirms, works.

Peter

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2011, 08:42:14 PM »
John,

I don't think you are missing anything. What we don't know, however, is what the results would be if you were to bulk ferment a batch of dough to make 100-200 dough balls, particularly a dough based on a hydration of 55% (a hydration of around 57-58% might be more common in a commercial setting for a Lehmann NY style dough) and using a period of cold fermentation before dividing and scaling. I once conducted some research to find examples where pizza operators bulk fermented large dough batches in their coolers before doing the division. At the time, I found few examples and, in those cases, the main reason for doing the bulk ferment/cold fermentation was because of limited storage capacity. See, for example, the thread at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8555&hilit and, in particular, the post by wa dave (Dave). Since that thread, it looks like wa dave has modified his dough management by bulk fermenting the dough in the cooler for 24-48 hours, dividing into dough balls, and then returning the dough balls to the cooler for processing the next day. This sounds a lot like the experiment you conducted but for a much smaller dough batch. However, as noted in wa dave's recent PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10629&p=73312&hilit=#p73312, he has been having problems with that method as applied to his particular dough formulation. Norma and I spent a lot of time examining wa dave's dough formulation, and I even went so far as to adapt the Lehmann dough formulation that Norma was using at market to incorporate a sour mix such as wa dave uses, as discussed at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg104939.html#msg104939 and elsewhere in the same thread. So, I am familiar with his dough formulation. What I do not know is whether wa dave's problems are due to his dough management or his formulation, or possibly both. So, much remains to be seen.

None of the above detracts from the experiments you conducted in a home setting with a few dough balls. What you did, and what Chau confirms, works.

Peter

That was some good reading Peter...thank you.  I have to say I'm very surprised you found so few operations trying this sort of method...especially when you consider the pains some operators go through to create their signature product...such as mixing large quantities of dough by hand.  Anyway, this all fascinates me. 

John, what type of flour are you using for these experiments?


Most of these experiments are made with KA bread flour.

John,

Your final conclusions are interesting.  Always there is that whole new area of experimentation right?  ďWho knows what the perfect time that a dough needs after balling to make the perfect pizza.Ē  I am sure you will find out if you decide to do more experiments.

Your last pictures of your pies do look perfect to me with that beautiful crumb structure.  :chef:

Norma


After reading the stuff Peter pointed to, I was amazed to see some used freshly balled doughs..but I found that even after sitting 24 hours, the doughs can very easily use 2 to 3 hours warm up time to help in their stretching.
John, again nice work.  The last crumb shot is my favorite of the bunch and looks perfect for me.

John, I have the notes in one of my 5 notepads but didn't write this one up or take photos.  This was done about a month ago during a period where I decided to wean myself from posting experiments.  I typically experiment with either bread dough or pizza dough 3-4x a week, sometimes experimenting with up to 3 completely different doughs in one setting.  It's hard enough keeping detailed notes let alone take photos and post everything.  I'm sure you understand.

The pies you describe are very similar to what I call my first perfect pie.  I'm sure you've see that thread.  It too was bulked and balled after 24h of cold fermentation, and then again right before baking because the dough was so slack it was almost liquid.  If you look through that thread, there are crumb shots at the beginning of the thread and towards the end you can compare.  I think your workflow and what I did and other similar workflows produce a certain desirable texture in the crust and crumb.  Btw, what flour are you using again?

Chau




Chau
Do you think that I am over exaggerating the differences between the pizzas?  I mean, it wasn't even close!!

John

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6978
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2011, 09:18:57 PM »
John, from your pictures, sometimes the reballed crumb shot looks very similar to your non reballed crumb so it would seem like you are exaggerating, but I know you are not, especially seeing the crumb on the last pie.  If you or I or anyone else makes a bunch of pizza and pays particular attention to the crumb and texture and you've made the gamut of bad pizza to great, you can look at pictures and it becomes pretty obvious what is good and what is not.  

It isn't PC to tell someone, hey you can do better or keep trying.  But everyone wants to hear great things right?  But if you've been there before, it's glaring when it's not right.   But me, I say you've discovered something valuable.  If others see it or not, no worries they'll get there sooner or later :-D

If you missed it, here are pies I made this morning.  Reply 62-65
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13728.msg162904.html#msg162904

The dough was bulked for 48 hrs cold, then divided cold and balled GENTLY, then cold fermented another 12hours.   I had planned on dividing and balling after 24hr, but decided to wait another 24hr to give the dough a bit more volume.  

As a point of interest, I repeated the same formula but varied the mixing and autolyse routine for another batch of dough last night.  This morning, only after about 8 hours of cold fermentation, the dough was ready to be divided and balled.  For me, it's less about the exact time but more about the dough volume and strength.

Peter, I don't have any commercial experience so I don't truly know how well this routine would work in a commercial setting but the only adjustment I see needed for a large volume of dough (100-200balls) is to adjust the level of yeast down and perhaps shorten the time the dough sits at room temp prior to cold fermentation.  The large mass would take much longer to cool down, but a few test batches should show what an appropriate level of yeast would be to use.  I don't think applying this routine to a commercial dough would be a big deal at all, but the specific formula would have to be matched to the routine.

John, I know you mentioned you have had success with this method with a variety of hydration rates, but I still think that at some point (if the hydration becomes too low), that the results would be less than ideal.  A typical NY dough that is well mixed initially may not benefit from a reballing.  As it is, many of the NY doughs you see opened on YouTube have a lot of strength built into the dough already and usually require a lot of time and effort to open.  The elasticity of their dough shows that the dough would not benefit from a reballing.

Chau
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 09:20:54 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2011, 09:01:54 AM »
Chau
You know as well as I, that pictures can only tell a small story about the quality of a product..they can tell a partial story though.  When I asked for your opinion, what i wanted was your response in regard to crispness, lightness and mouth appeal.  These can only be experienced by actually eating them, and I'm sure you enjoy eating as much as I do!  Beautiful pizzas on the above link...I mean beautiful!!

John

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21898
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2011, 10:33:26 AM »
Peter, I don't have any commercial experience so I don't truly know how well this routine would work in a commercial setting but the only adjustment I see needed for a large volume of dough (100-200balls) is to adjust the level of yeast down and perhaps shorten the time the dough sits at room temp prior to cold fermentation.  The large mass would take much longer to cool down, but a few test batches should show what an appropriate level of yeast would be to use.  I don't think applying this routine to a commercial dough would be a big deal at all, but the specific formula would have to be matched to the routine.


Chau,

I am perhaps one of the least qualified persons in this forum to talk about commercial quantities of dough balls since I rarely make more than one dough ball at a time. However, intuitively and also from what I have read, it seems that it would be far easier to divide and scale large numbers of dough balls and to form them into nice round shapes without seams when the dough comes out of the mixer fairly warm rather than doing the dividing, scaling and shaping from a bulk dough a day or more later at a commercial cooler temperature of about 35-40 degrees F. If one uses a water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80-85 degrees (for a commercial operation), that will enable the dough to be divided, scaled and shaped quite easily and quickly. Tom Lehmann says that one should ideally try to do that within about 20 minutes (see his PMQ TT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10045&p=68895&hilit=#p68895), presumably to minimize exposure of the dough balls to ambient temperatures that might be too high and make it more difficult to cool the dough balls down as quickly and as uniformly as possible, thereby avoiding the risk of the dough balls blowing. Of course, the actual amount of time to do the division and scaling will depend on the number of dough balls to be made and the number of workers who are assigned to perform these tasks and their experience at these tasks. From what I have read, there are some workers who can apparently process an entire batch of dough before the next batch of dough is done mixing.

It is hard to imagine that one can work as fast and produce equivalently shaped dough balls without seams when the bulk dough is cold. Maybe that isn't as critical if the dough balls are to go back into the cooler, although (again, intuitively) I would think that you would still want to work as fast as possible so as not to disrupt the fermentation process any more than necessary or to expose them too long to the prevailing ambient temperatures that might be higher or lower than optimum. Also, you want the window of usability of the dough balls to be consistently the same. As mentioned previously, apparently wa dave has had problems adapting his dough management to the additional step of returning his divided dough balls (divided from a cold bulk dough) back to his cooler for further cold fermentation. He apparently did not have that problem when he did not use that additional step. The bottom line for me, especially since I have not found anyone else who has attempted to do the same on a commercial scale basis, is that I remain a skeptic. Someone would have to do some actual experiments and test runs on a commercial scale to satisfy me.

You and other members may also be interested in the debate that took place on the PMQ Think Tank, but in the context of a room temperature scenario rather than a cold fermentation scenario, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2846&p=14247&hilit=#p14180. I have cited that thread a few times before but it is always interesting to re-read it again from time to time.

Peter


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6978
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2011, 11:11:14 AM »
Chau
You know as well as I, that pictures can only tell a small story about the quality of a product..they can tell a partial story though.  When I asked for your opinion, what i wanted was your response in regard to crispness, lightness and mouth appeal.  These can only be experienced by actually eating them, and I'm sure you enjoy eating as much as I do!  Beautiful pizzas on the above link...I mean beautiful!!

John

John, sorry if I didn't understand or answer your question appropriately.  Sometimes, I end up posting about related topics that happen to pop into my head.  I know it's impossible to see my thought process, but there usually is reason for the ranting.  ;D

But yes, for me and the particular dough I make, there is a big night and day difference in mouth feel particularly the lightness of the crumb and the chewiness of the crust in general when I reball (or build the dough strength properly) versus not.  If I were to serve them side by side, I believe most ppl without knowing much about the process of making pizza can also detect the differences.  They may not be able to describe or pinpoint the differences, but they can usually say if one is better than the other.   So for me, I do see the value and purpose in using reballing as a means to build structure into my dough.  I have been using reballs and folds shortly after I started making pizza a few years ago and consider these steps an integral part in my dough making.  I can't make dough without feeling it with my hands and manipulating it to some extent.

Yes I agree with you that pictures can only tell us so much.  The final analysis can only be done through the act of eating and we can't eat pictures.  Also everyone's perception and taste is naturally different so we may not even agree on what is good, better, or best.

I am particularly glad that you started this thread discussing this aspect of dough making.  IMO, it is an advance topic of dough making and one that members may not see eye to eye on, but worthy of discussing never the less.  For me, I'll continue using these steps until I find something better.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 11:18:24 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6978
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2011, 11:57:39 AM »
Peter, thanks for the response and the link to the PMQ discussion of balling dough after mixing versus as needed or per order. 

Peter, as far as whether it is easier to ball dough when the dough temp is approximate to room temps versus cold, I would agree that generally it is easier to form doughs at room temps and not have seems in the dough.  But again, it is entirely dependent on the dough formulation and mixing regimen as these factors also affect if dough can/should be balled cold at a later point. 
If a moderate to high hydration dough is minimally kneaded and not allowed to rise in bulk volume too much (relative to the strength of the flour), it can be just as easy as balling a standard NY dough at room temps.  Especially if the dough has had 12-24 hours to soften up in the fridge.  Some of my previous CF doughs have come out of the fridge almost in a liquid state and I would consider to be much more difficult to handle because of their extensibility not elasticity.  So again, it depends entirely on the dough recipe (more specifically it's condition) as to whether it will tolerate and benefit from a late balling. 

Also, it may be that dough is process commercially in the way that it is (whatever that maybe) for efficiency purposes as well as consistency in order to maximize overall efficiency and profit.  It may not be efficient or as profitable to reball cold dough, but if I had a pizzeria I would still take the time and effort to do so as I believe it makes a better product.   But again, I don't believe this additional step would benefit all doughs, so it is only appropriate for doughs that can handle it, particularly under kneaded doughs and higher hydration doughs.  To me, it is simply and plainly another strength building step, an extension of mixing/kneading/manipulating the dough.  One can choose to build all the strength up front versus in parts separated by rest periods.  I am sure there are folks on both sides that have experience and reason to believe either balling early or late is better for their dough.

As far as applying it to a large batch of dough and commercial setting, a possible work around to the bulk of the dough cooling too quickly is to divide the bulk into smaller portions all to be refrigerated until time of balling.  Only a portion of dough that can be balled in a timely fashion will sit out at room temps.  When said batch is done, another can be moved from the fridge to counter to be balled and so on.

As for the link, it is an interesting debate and I would have to say that for that specific scenario, it is unadvisable to ball dough on a as needed base if making NY style pizza   As Tom said, not only are you having to deal with trying to open a dough ball that was just formed, but the resulting pizzas would be terribly inconsistent if you were making NY style pies.  If you are making a low yeasted dough that was sheeted, then it could work.     

But as far as balling dough early or later in the fermentation process, as long as it's not done really late in the overall process, I haven't had any issues with consistency in the final dough ball or in the resulting pizzas (in a home setting).   An interesting and related topic on the side of bread making, bread dough must also have some sort of rest period to relax prior to baking.   If the dough is put through the final shaping process really late in fermentation and then baked too hastily without a decent rest period, the bread has a tendency to separate during baking along the seam.  It simply hasn't had enough time for the dough to relax and for the gluten strains to meld and realign themselves.   Something similar would also happen to pizza dough if it were to be balled and then immediately open for baking.  The dough would be too strong and one would risk tearing it.   This is why even if a dough can tolerate and benefit from a late balling, it also usually needs a sufficient time to relax prior to opening.

On several occassions, I have made amazing pizzas with dough that came out of the fridge in almost a liquid state.  I reballed the dough about 10 minutes prior to baking and the results were stellar.  The dough opened up easily and felt fantastic.  This was a unique dough and circumstance, but the point is that great bread and pizza is a balance of hydration, dough strength, and the perfect bake.  As long as one can achieve the balance of these things, it matters less if the dough was balled out of the mixer or right before baking. 

Chau
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 12:03:58 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21898
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2011, 02:39:55 PM »
Chau,

I understand what you are saying, particularly with respect to moderate or high hydration doughs. You might even recall that Brian Spangler uses multiple interventions in making his dough but my recollection is that even he lowered the formula hydration to make the dough more manageable. My recollection is that wa dave's dough as he described it at the PMQTT had a formula hydration of around 53%. My original comments were made, and my last post as well, with respect to the 55% hydration dough that John made. Lately, over the last few months, Norma and I have been making frozen dough balls as described over at the Mellow Mushroom thread with an "effective" hydration of around 55-56% (the nominal hydration is several percentage points lower but it is adjusted to compensate for the water content of liquid sweeteners and also the use of some oil). The frozen dough balls are given one day in the refrigerator section to thaw out and a second day in the refrigerator to undergo some fermentation before using. When the dough is removed from the refrigerator, it is quite stiff and lifeless, with little or no softness. It takes around an hour or two at room temperature (around 68 degrees F in my case) for the dough to soften enough to use. It is hard to imagine carving up a large bulk dough into pieces at a hydration of around 55% and a temperature of around 35-40 degrees F as it comes out of the refrigerator or cooler.

Peter

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2011, 08:44:36 PM »
Hey guys
I've got to give a big experiment a try....I'm going to mix up 40 13-ounce doughs, probably on Tuesday morning.  I'm going to use ADM high gluten flour (because that is what we use), but I'm going to increase the hydration to 58%.  I will then scale, ball and refrigerate 5 doughs to be used successively over 3 to 5 days as a control.  The rest of the dough will be bulk fermented.  After 24 hours, I will scale, ball and refrigerate maybe 5 more doughs to be used successively over 3 to 5 days (this way I can see what time will do to the balled dough).  After another 24 hours, I will scale, ball and refrigerate maybe another 5 doughs to be used successively (to see what time might do in this case).  The rest of the dough I will ball and freeze for eating later.

I need to make a large enough batch that my mixer will actually mix (I use a big one), and I'm thinking a slightly higher hydration will make the dough alot easier to use.  If you can think of anything else I should test or do please speak up now...I'm willing to try anything.  I'm wondering what the shelf life of a dough is which has been scaled, balled and refrigerated right after mixing....I'm wondering because I would be willing to bet (just a hunch), great pizzas can be made with older dough by using this method.  I guess I'll see.

John

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21596
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2011, 09:24:46 PM »
Hey guys
I've got to give a big experiment a try....I'm going to mix up 40 13-ounce doughs, probably on Tuesday morning.  I'm going to use ADM high gluten flour (because that is what we use), but I'm going to increase the hydration to 58%.  I will then scale, ball and refrigerate 5 doughs to be used successively over 3 to 5 days as a control.  The rest of the dough will be bulk fermented.  After 24 hours, I will scale, ball and refrigerate maybe 5 more doughs to be used successively over 3 to 5 days (this way I can see what time will do to the balled dough).  After another 24 hours, I will scale, ball and refrigerate maybe another 5 doughs to be used successively (to see what time might do in this case).  The rest of the dough I will ball and freeze for eating later.

I need to make a large enough batch that my mixer will actually mix (I use a big one), and I'm thinking a slightly higher hydration will make the dough alot easier to use.  If you can think of anything else I should test or do please speak up now...I'm willing to try anything.  I'm wondering what the shelf life of a dough is which has been scaled, balled and refrigerated right after mixing....I'm wondering because I would be willing to bet (just a hunch), great pizzas can be made with older dough by using this method.  I guess I'll see.

John

John,

Your experiments sound exciting!  ;D  Canít wait to see the results.  All depending on how your experiments work out I do have some extra ADM high-gluten flour I also can try to see if I can get anywhere near your results.  I agree with you that a slightly higher hydration will make the dough a lot easier to use. 

I really donít know what the shelf life of a dough which has been scaled, balled, and refrigerated right after mixing, but I would guess it would have to do with the final dough temperature and the amount of IDY you use.  I have seen Lehmann dough balls my friend Steve made and left to cold ferment for a week and they still baked fine without any added sugar in the Lehmann dough, but I never really tried that.  Steve did make great pizzas with his week old cold fermented doughs.

This doesnít have to do with your experiment, but I had upped the hydration on my preferment Lehmann doughs awhile ago and did do a second reball right after I had the dough balls balled once.  That didnít seem to work for me.  I had just wanted to see what a second reball did to my dough balls, with a little higher hydration.  The dough balls the next day were harder to open and the pizzas didnít seem to bake much different. 

Thanks for doing the experiments!  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2011, 12:45:55 AM »
John,

Your experiments sound exciting!  ;D  Canít wait to see the results.  All depending on how your experiments work out I do have some extra ADM high-gluten flour I also can try to see if I can get anywhere near your results.  I agree with you that a slightly higher hydration will make the dough a lot easier to use. 

I really donít know what the shelf life of a dough which has been scaled, balled, and refrigerated right after mixing, but I would guess it would have to do with the final dough temperature and the amount of IDY you use.  I have seen Lehmann dough balls my friend Steve made and left to cold ferment for a week and they still baked fine without any added sugar in the Lehmann dough, but I never really tried that.  Steve did make great pizzas with his week old cold fermented doughs.

This doesnít have to do with your experiment, but I had upped the hydration on my preferment Lehmann doughs awhile ago and did do a second reball right after I had the dough balls balled once.  That didnít seem to work for me.  I had just wanted to see what a second reball did to my dough balls, with a little higher hydration.  The dough balls the next day were harder to open and the pizzas didnít seem to bake much different. 

Thanks for doing the experiments!  :)

Norma

Norma
I'm still going to experiment, but I've changed the parameters abit after much thought..  This time around I'm not going to see how long the dough lasts..i thought I'd work within a  4 day window and try to compare differing bulk ferment times, with differing amounts of time after the ball.  Anyway, I'm going to start a new thread...and add to it each of the next few days.
John

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21596
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2011, 08:25:51 AM »
Norma
I'm still going to experiment, but I've changed the parameters abit after much thought..  This time around I'm not going to see how long the dough lasts..i thought I'd work within a  4 day window and try to compare differing bulk ferment times, with differing amounts of time after the ball.  Anyway, I'm going to start a new thread...and add to it each of the next few days.
John

John,

Will watch when you post a new thread.  I am interested in any results you achieve.  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2050
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: reballing dough balls is the same as balling a bulk fermented dough
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2012, 11:57:58 PM »
Fazarri - are you using the same dough ingredients as your original post in this thread for all of these experimental pies?  33% preferment poolish as well?  I've never reballed my dough nor have i done a bulk fermentation before so im getting pretty excited to take my crust to the next level.  

Pete - what does the term scale mean?  When reballing the dough are we lightly flouring again?  Can this also be done with KAAP flour as well?  For some reason im liking the flavor more than the KABF.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 11:59:53 PM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.