Author Topic: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)  (Read 4003 times)

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Offline fagilia

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Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« on: December 06, 2011, 06:51:33 AM »
I would like to build a WFO with the neapoletan look. Why? Because the best uses it so it is probably the best to use. I have read all posts by pizzanapoletana and i have seen the sketches but there are many question marks. I want to make it as authentic as i can. That is my aim. I do not want to make a pompeii forno bravo oven!!

1: Isn't there anybody who has seen or documented exactly how the oven is built? Or is there not anybody who has disassembled a true neapoletan oven to see how its constructed inside?

2: I am mostly interested how the chimney traveling to the top of the dome is designed? The dome itself I think is pretty clear from the fornobravo plans togetaher with pizzanapoletana measurements.


Ps. To me it is funny that there is such a great forum on forno bravos site and they are all discussing an oven that do not look like the real deal!!
There must be people who want to at least try to make the real deal. Please anybody.


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2011, 07:03:20 AM »
This recent thread shows a true neapolitan design, covers the vent design beautifully, and one of the only builds on the forum that conforms to the vent design you see in ovens from makers in Naples:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13681.0.html

Also, you can see the vent being constructed in this set of pics on the Uno Forno Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.180340278680407.44206.100001133070013&type=3

There are also construction photos here:

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001878281177&sk=photos

John

Offline fagilia

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2011, 07:32:40 AM »
Thank you for this,
I have read it all and seen the pictures. What I really would like to know is how eg. the transition between the dome and the steel opening looks like. As well as how the vent looks like from the inside? Is it made of steel or bricks?
I can probably figure out something myself but as the subjects states I would like to come as close to the real deal as possible. That would have been wonderful.
Does anyone for example knows if the build by shuboyje is authentic or just guessing?
Thanks again

Ps. I could not open the second link..

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2011, 08:05:29 AM »
The thread I referenced has the pictures you are looking for. They are at the end. Also, the builder in that thread has a very informed build process that takes tradition and interprets it for a modern approach. Take the time to read it through and you will probably find your answers.

If you are looking for step by step instructions from a professional oven builder in Naples, I think you are out of luck.

John

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 11:32:47 AM »
To be honest, the only part that matters for the pizza itself is the floor and dome.  The vent and exterior design have no influence upon the pizza, rather only on the installation and you.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 11:54:12 AM »
To be honest, the only part that matters for the pizza itself is the floor and dome.  The vent and exterior design have no influence upon the pizza, rather only on the installation and you.

I once read that the neapolitan tradition of venting along the top of the dome and out a center hole is to use the vent heat to help with stored heat in the dome. Whether or not it works, I do not know. It seems to me that the modern refractories being used would not need or benefit from this design - and may only apply to all-brick designs.

John

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2011, 11:57:51 AM »
I am sure it helps a little, squirrel tail ovens being even more common for bread baking, but again, that has nothing to do with the actual cooking of the pizza.

Offline fagilia

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2011, 01:02:18 PM »
Thanks again all,
I trust that there is a purpose for the design thats why i want to know how its done.
From what i have read the squirrel vent is used to heat up the smoke so it draws better not to help heat up the dome?

To me it is strange that not more people want to achieve the real thing.
Its would also be strange if nobody has dessassembled a true neapoletan oven?

So ill hope for more answeres.

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2011, 01:20:01 PM »
I think you are overthinking it.  It is not a secret, nor is it complicated to build.  The purpose of the squirrel tail is to reclaim heat; a straight flue will always draw better than one with angles.  FYI, pizza doesn't care where the heat comes from.  For a Neapolitan pizza you need high deck and dome temps and a source of radiant heat.  How that is achieved is immaterial to the pizza, it only affects the perception of people.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 01:22:53 PM »
I've read the same thing as John.  It's purpose is in the efficiency of the oven, more stored heat equals less burned wood.  Less wood burned equals money saved.  

Fagilia, the only reason I could see someone disassembling an oven is if it was damage or inoperable.  These artisan ovens are hand made and expensive at that.  No one is going to rip one apart just for the sake of documenting it.

The real thing? So all other ovens aren't real ovens?  Or incapable of making "real" NP pizza?  The oven doesn't make the pizza, the pizza maker does.  If you haven't gotten the dough down, no oven no matter how real it is will help.  

Just my 2cents.  No offense intended.  I too would like to know, just for the sake of knowing, the how's and why's of a Napoletan oven, but the oven is only part of the equation.

Chau
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 01:28:40 PM by Jackie Tran »


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 04:00:31 PM »
a straight flue will always draw better than one with angles.
All other things being equal, of course. I'd bet my 10', 10" diameter insulated flue with angles at the bottom draws better than the 3 or 4' of 6 or 8" straight uninsulated pipe you often see on similar-sized ovens.

CL
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 04:04:09 PM »
The oven doesn't make the pizza, the pizza maker does.  If you haven't gotten the dough down, no oven no matter how real it is will help.  

This really sums it up. The oven can make a difference at the margin, but it won't make up for any errors or shortcomings along the way.

CL
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 08:51:44 PM »
Natural Draft is simply a created by a pressure differential.  The hot air inside the flue is less dense then the ambient outside air.  Difference in density creates the pressure that moves the air.  So the pressure created is based on two things, temperature difference and air volume.  More air in the flue will lead to more draw.  Hotter air in the flue will lead to more draw. 

The second one is the theory of the neapolitan vent.  By routing the flue gases over the hottest part of the dome you heat them, creating a bigger temperature difference, more pressure, and more draw.

My oven draws great, as good as my old over sized straight up vent on start up, and much better once up to temperature, so it seems to support the claim so far, but I do have another theory.  The neapolitan vent design is always said to increase fuel economy.  A more complete combustion due to better air flow would cause this, but some would other things, like insulation.  I am starting to form an opinion that neapolitan ovens may be more mass based(like most old world ovens) rather then insulation based like more modern ovens.  I'm pretty positive some form of sand mixture is used over the dome.  This would be thermal mass, and it is supported by the fact commercial neapolitan ovens get so hot on the outside you wouldn't want to touch them.  My idea is that the neapolitan vent, and it's benefits actually come from it acting as a form of insulation in the dome that otherwise would have none.  Heat moves from hot to cold, so putting an air cavity over the dome and filling it with hot flue gases would drastically reduce the flow of heat out the top of the oven, and essentially act as insulation.  An oven built with all this mass over the dome and no cavity would burn more wood.  Just an idea, but one I'm leaning toward.

As you can see, I can talk about this stuff for hours, and think about it non stop.  Fagilla, if you have any questions not answered in my thread feel free to ask.  What you see there is the result of literally thousands of hours of reading, research, thinking, problem solving, designing and improving.  Much more then I could ever post.   
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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 09:03:48 PM »
Mass based ovens are great for production baking, but not so useful for intermittent use.  You can conjecture about crooked flues all you want, but simple physics (and my reference books for hydrodynamic pipe friction) refute you.  The other issue with elbowed pipes is the accumulation of residue that can and does lead to chimney fires.

I am not saying that the design is faulty, far from it.  My points are this:

You do not need to build a Neapolitan design oven to create Neapolitan pizza.

Elbowed flues are always less efficient in draw than straight flues, all else being equal.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 09:39:00 PM »
I have a pretty good understanding of airflow and friction losses.  It is the essence of what I do for a living.  I have never seen a fiction loss table that has anything to do with flue gases being heated while in the flue.  If you have one I would love to see it.

As I said before I'm actually leaning towards other things causing the effects generally attributed to the neapolitan vent, that said the vent on my oven draws like crazy once the oven begins to get hot.  All of a sudden the airflow gets supercharged ad everything goes up in flame, from fresh wood just added to the oldest most charred coals that would only have smoldered until they where gone in my old oven.

At some point in the future I plan to measure the airflow and compare it to the theoretical flow of the vertical portion of the stack, but that will have to wait.

I agree you don't need any of this to cook great pizza, the only thing I really would stress to a home builder is a dome height in coordination with the temperature you plan to cook at. The higher the temp the lower the dome.  It will just make it easier to get a balanced bake.  You can get one without it, but why should you have to fight to cook what you want in your oven?
-Jeff

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2011, 09:46:50 PM »
Temperature is one of those, "all things being equal" variables.  The amount of preheating would be minimal for a continuous operation, and irrelevant for for an intermittent one.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2011, 10:02:49 PM »
The amount of preheating would be minimal for a continuous operation, and irrelevant for for an intermittent one.

Funny you bring that up, I agree completely, especially about intermittent use.  That is actually what led me to think about others reasons for the effects generally associated with the neapolitan vent design.
-Jeff

Offline fagilia

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Re: Neapoletan pizza oven design plans (the real deal)
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 09:53:01 AM »
Thank you all so far,
This is my first post in this forum and i have learned more in one day than i did after 2 months of oven research in Sweden.
There is not one pizzeria here making neapolitan pizzaz even if we have over 5000 pizzerias.
My goal is to make an almost genuine neapolitan pizza. That means learning everyting i can even buildning a neapolitan oven.
I will probably buy a real oven for my restaurant but i also need to know everything about it!
I dont care if a pompeii oven from FB can do the job. I want to try to make the genuine stuff even if its almost impossible.
Since i am young i have all my life in head of me :D