Author Topic: bromated flours  (Read 5233 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2011, 09:26:53 PM »
And KA flours suck. As soon as you start working with real pizzeria flour, the difference is immediately recognizable.  No one that gets the chance to use pizzeria flour ever goes back to KA.

scott123,

Having been on this forum for over 7 years, and having observed who comes to the forum and why, I have concluded that most are really only interested in being able to make a decent pizza in their homes using ingredients that they can get at their local supermarket in small quantities. They are not interested in seeking out and buying 25- or 50-pound bags of bromated flours even if they have access to sources for such flours (such as the big box stores, PennMac, GFS, etc.). And, since there are no bromated flours sold at the supermarket level, at least at the stores I have frequented, that leaves them with whatever choices are available to them where they shop. That means flours like the King Arthur flours (which do have the strictest tolerances in the industry and above average protein levels), Better for Bread flour, Pillsbury flour, house brands, and regional brands (like Hecker's/Ceresota, Stone Buhr, Dakota Maid, etc.). I think there is merit to all of these flours. By comparison with bromated flours, they may come up short in certain areas but I wouldn't go so far as to say that they "suck". They are what they are and for most that is good enough.  

Peter


scott123

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2011, 09:34:46 PM »
Legitimate question:  What about the exposure to the unbaked flour/dough to the pizza maker?  In a pizzeria kitchen, the pizza maker is constantly handling dough and flour, breathing it, it gets in your eyes and ears and hair, etc.  I also like to taste a bit of uncooked dough when I'm making it.

Again it's an individual decision.  I don't think it's necessary for my purposes, so it's my choice not to use it.  

"KA flours suck"?  I've not heard that very often.  I find them to be excellent.

Guy, I think, that as time passes, some bakers are beginning to see the dangers of chronic flour inhalation and are taking steps to avoid it- such as using masks while preparing the dough and having proper ventilation in the prep area.  I know Chris Bianco has spoken extensively about the breathing issues he's had that he attributes, in part, to working with flour.

And this is with any flour, bromated or not.  Diatomaceous earth (DE) is added to flour all the time to control pests, and, while they use the 'good' DE (as opposed to the 'bad' DE used in pools), the jury on prolonged DE inhalation is, imo, still out.  As far as breathing in flour, I'd be a lot more concerned about DE than bromate.

KA has almost a completely monopoly over bread flour for the home baker.  You don't hear many complaints because, for the most part, people don't have any alternatives.  It doesn't help that misinformed shill authors like Peter Reinhart market the daylight out of it in their books.  Ask any pizzeria owner in the NY metro area about KA flour and they'll have no clue what you're talking about.  It's like using all purpose flour for pastry crust.  Most bakeries don't use all purpose flour.  They'll use pastry flour for pastries and bread flour for bread.  It's the ideal tool for the task. Home bakers are only forced to use AP because you can't get pastry flour in a supermarket. It's the same thing with pizzeria flour.  KA is not pizzeria flour.  If you want to approach pizza seriously, either at home or for a business, you use pizzeria flour.  If you don't want to use bromate, then avoid bromate, but there's much better unbromated flours than KA.


Offline PizzaBrewer

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2011, 09:55:58 PM »
Ask any pizzeria owner in the NY metro area about KA flour and they'll have no clue what you're talking about.  It's like using all purpose flour for pastry crust.  Most bakeries don't use all purpose flour.  They'll use pastry flour for pastries and bread flour for bread.  It's the ideal tool for the task. Home bakers are only forced to use AP because you can't get pastry flour in a supermarket. It's the same thing with pizzeria flour.  KA is not pizzeria flour.  If you want to approach pizza seriously, either at home or for a business, you use pizzeria flour.  If you don't want to use bromate, then avoid bromate, but there's much better unbromated flours than KA.

I really don't want to get into a long drawn out argument.  Suffice it say that I disagree with many of your assertions, including the implication that I don't take it seriously as a business because I use KA.  I approach pizza *very* seriously as a business and at home.  And you're right, the pizza industry doesn't know about KA.  I had to find a specialty supplier who was willing and able to special order it for me.

But I will ask out of curiosity:  what specifically makes KA inferior to unbromated "real pizzeria flour" in your view?
Man does not live by bread alone.  There's also tomato, cheese and pepperoni.

scott123

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2011, 10:02:23 PM »
scott123,

Having been on this forum for over 7 years, and having observed who comes to the forum and why, I have concluded that most are really only interested in being able to make a decent pizza in their homes using ingredients that they can get at their local supermarket in small quantities. They are not interested in seeking out and buying 25- or 50-pound bags of bromated flours even if they have access to sources for such flours (such as the big box stores, PennMac, GFS, etc.). And, since there are no bromated flours sold at the supermarket level, at least at the stores I have frequented, that leaves them with whatever choices are available to them where they shop. That means flours like the King Arthur flours (which do have the strictest tolerances in the industry and above average protein levels), Better for Bread flour, Pillsbury flour, house brands, and regional brands (like Hecker's/Ceresota, Stone Buhr, Dakota Maid, etc.). I think there is merit to all of these flours. By comparison with bromated flours, they may come up short in certain areas but I wouldn't go so far as to say that they "suck". They are what they are and for most that is good enough.  

Peter

Peter, where I come from, coming 'up short in certain areas' is the same thing as sucking  ;D 

While I agree that many members who come here just want a 'decent' pizza, is it that wrong of me to try to push them to want something more? Am I that off base by telling people that the flour they're working with will most likely not make a better than good pie?  Not having truly great pizza is like never being in love. It really is that magical of an event. Everyone on this planet deserves to experience great pizza at least once in their lives, either by their own hands or by others.

I'm not asking people to invest vast sums of money or copious amounts of time. Most people have access to ideal pizza flour and ideal pizza stones. It's really not that difficult.  And the potential rewards are massive.

scott123

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2011, 10:46:56 PM »
I really don't want to get into a long drawn out argument.  Suffice it say that I disagree with many of your assertions, including the implication that I don't take it seriously as a business because I use KA.  I approach pizza *very* seriously as a business and at home.  And you're right, the pizza industry doesn't know about KA.  I had to find a specialty supplier who was willing and able to special order it for me.

But I will ask out of curiosity:  what specifically makes KA inferior to unbromated "real pizzeria flour" in your view?

Guy, did the thought ever occur to you, as you were going through all this trouble ordering KA, that, maybe the pizza industry might actually know what it's doing?  Do you really think that if KA were somehow better than what the pizzerias were using, someone, somewhere, wouldn't have figured it out?

I've seen countless unbromated KA pizzas and countless unbromated pizzas using commercial flours, and, in the right hands, the commercial flours always make slightly better pies. Pendleton- superior. Unbromated bouncer- superior. Harvest King- superior.  Jeff Varasano was, at one point, a big KA fan boy.  What's he using now? Harvest King.

Look at California.  The pizzerias there were forced into using unbromated flour.  When that happened, did they reach for the KA? Heck no.  

How about Brian Spangler in Portland? Nope. Chris Bianco has always gone the unbromated route.  Any KA there? Nada.

The entire industry- on both the bromated side AND the unbromated side, shuns KA. Do you really think that they're all wrong,  and that somehow KA is this magical fairy dust flour with razor tight specifications from wheat grown by happy smiling farmers who say "aw shucks" and "gee whiz?"


Offline PizzaBrewer

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2011, 10:59:38 PM »
Guy, did the thought ever occur to you, as you were going through all this trouble ordering KA, that, maybe the pizza industry might actually know what it's doing?  Do you really think that if KA were somehow better than what the pizzerias were using, someone, somewhere, wouldn't have figured it out?

I've seen countless unbromated KA pizzas and countless unbromated pizzas using commercial flours, and, in the right hands, the commercial flours always make slightly better pies. Pendleton- superior. Unbromated bouncer- superior. Harvest King- superior.  Jeff Varasano was, at one point, a big KA fan boy.  What's he using now? Harvest King.

Look at California.  The pizzerias there were forced into using unbromated flour.  When that happened, did they reach for the KA? Heck no.  

How about Brian Spangler in Portland? Nope. Chris Bianco has always gone the unbromated route.  Any KA there? Nada.

The entire industry- on both the bromated side AND the unbromated side, shuns KA. Do you really think that they're all wrong,  and that somehow KA is this magical fairy dust flour with razor tight specifications from wheat grown by happy smiling farmers who say "aw shucks" and "gee whiz?"



Thanks for the heaping dose of condescension.

I'm done with this one.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 11:01:32 PM by PizzaBrewer »
Man does not live by bread alone.  There's also tomato, cheese and pepperoni.

scott123

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2011, 11:34:39 PM »
Oh, come on, Guy, lighten up.  We agree on tomatoes, remember?  ;D

I have no doubt that you brew an amazing beer and bake a great pizza and that your brewpub/pizzeria is destined for success.  I couldn't make beer if a gun were pointed at my head. I have massive respect for the venture that you're undertaking.

My intent is not to condescend, but to put a little more coin in your pocket- by allowing you to make a slightly better pizza with a greater profit margin.

Offline norma427

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2011, 11:59:29 PM »
I am not going to disagree with anyone about King Arthur flours, bromated, unbromated, or even other different flours that pizzerias might use.  I sure am not an expert pizza maker and probably never will be.  I have tried many brands of flours in many formulations and all I can say is KASL is a good flour in my opinion and from the experiments I have done.  I have almost blind taste tested pies with KASL and bromated flours and I really can’t say I have seen a big difference in the taste of the crusts whether using KASL or bromated flours.  Just recently, I told John (fazzari) although the pizzas made with bromated flour did seem to rise a little more and seemed to brown a little better, there really couldn’t be any differences tasted in the crusts when the bromated crusts were tasted.  I surely wouldn’t say anything bad about King Arthur flours. 

These are just my opinions.  I know I am not going to change anyone’s opinions, but thought I wanted to post about my experiences.

Norma
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Offline patnx2

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2011, 02:46:32 AM »
Thanks for all the responces and sort of clarity. I am happy to live in Calif. with the fruits and nuts. I'll stick with un-B Pendleton. My pies are improving but no camera, maybe ms. Santa will read this. Patrick

















c

Patrick

Offline tikidoc

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2011, 06:33:44 AM »
Thanks for the heaping dose of condescension.

I'm done with this one.

Agreed. 

Scott, you are welcome to your opinion and I respect your obvious knowledge base.  But first, not all of us make the same type of pizza.  I happen to love Chicago style deep dish (IL native) and use of a high gluten pizzeria flour would make a terrible deep dish pizza.  Waaayyy too much gluten.  I do like to sometimes make a thin crust, but I can't justify the purchase of a 50# bag of pizzeria flour (bromated or otherwise).  I do make enough bread and bagels to justify that size bag of KASL. So I use that and what I can get in the grocery store, along with some 00 that I got from a baker/pizza maker friend (owns a brick oven bakery) to make pizza.  But I don't have the space to store 50# of pizza flour and I don't have a wood fired oven.  I have a Big Green Egg equivalent and a home oven.

Second, and most importantly, I think what has set most people off here, PizzaBrewer and myself included, is your complete lack of respect for other opinions in the group.  You might get more people to listen to you if you tried listening to what they are saying and allowing for the fact that you may not be the only one with a valid opinion.  And when you do disagree with other's opinions, you might try voicing your own without trying to belittle everyone else.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2011, 08:10:06 AM »
I think our readers can now see why I cringe whenever a member asks about bromated flours, and especially for an opinion. That is why I jumped in as soon as I could after Patrick posted, before others had a chance to respond, and suggested that he use the forum's search engines. In his case, since he asked about California, I tried to help him narrow the search to posts that discuss bromates in relation to California. If he searched only on the term bromate, as I sometimes suggest that others do who inquire on the subject, he would have gotten six pages of hits (there are also ten threads with the word bromate in the topic headings). Maybe that is what I should suggest in the future and warn the members that the subject can be a contentious one, with strongly held views on both sides, and that, in the final analysis, the decision on bromates becomes a personal one after weighing and balancing all of the information and opinions presented on the subject. Barring any startling new revelations on the subject, I really don't think we need more threads on the subject.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2011, 08:56:25 PM »
Scott and I have had fun (it was fun for me anyway - hopefully for him too) going back and forth on whether KA flours "suck." I'm personally a fan. KAAP was the only thing I used for pizza for years until I needed to move to an unmalted flour.

When it comes to health risks, bromate or otherwise, I'm personally betting on red wine. My "theory" is that the resveratrol in red wine will counteract the negative effects of everything else I do if I drink enough of it. After all, it works in lab rats.  :-D

CL
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Offline Essen1

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2011, 11:19:50 PM »
Scott and I have had fun (it was fun for me anyway - hopefully for him too) going back and forth on whether KA flours "suck." I'm personally a fan. KAAP was the only thing I used for pizza for years until I needed to move to an unmalted flour.

When it comes to health risks, bromate or otherwise, I'm personally betting on red wine. My "theory" is that the resveratrol in red wine will counteract the negative effects of everything else I do if I drink enough of it. After all, it works in lab rats.  :-D

CL

Craig,

Not only is red wine good for you, it helps boost the good cholesterol, promotes a healthy heart and contains antioxidants which may help prevent prostate cancer.

Men, drink away!
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2011, 11:54:11 PM »
Peter,  well said.   

Bromate is a crutch for the weak minded.

Offline DonC

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2012, 07:13:09 PM »
I'm not a professional,or anywhere near as experienced as most here,just putting my two cents in(disclaimer;actual value may be less than two cents!!) My first large bag of flour for bread and pizza was bromated,I was so focused on protein levels that I didn't notice the "bromated"on the label till I was home with it.Since then I've only used unbromated.Frankly I haven't seen much difference with pizza.The dough did seem to rise better with breads however but not enough for me personally to accept the risk.Like so many other controversial subjects in our society,there is so much opposing information(or should I say disinformation!LOL) that it's very hard to tell what truth is.I can live with unbromated easily and have one less thing to worry about.