Author Topic: bromated flours  (Read 4819 times)

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Offline patnx2

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bromated flours
« on: December 08, 2011, 01:39:05 AM »
I can't get bromated flour in calif, Why? What makes it dangerous? What are it's benifits. Patrick
Patrick


Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2011, 02:37:07 AM »
miata pat?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 10:53:29 AM »
Patrick,

If you do a forum search (Advanced and/or Google) using the search terms bromate and California, you will get several hits that frame the issue regarding bromates flours, both pro and con.

Peter

Offline tikidoc

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2011, 11:29:07 AM »
Potassium bromate is considered to be a class 2B (possibly carcinogenic to humans) carcinogen by the International Agency for Research on Cancer.  It has been banned for use in the EU, Canada, and China, and other countries.  Theoretically, there is very little residual in bread after baking, so the risk should be small.

Since I can make breads and pizzas that I am very happy with using unbleached unbromated flours, I stay away from those that have been chemically altered.  It may or may not be a carcinogen, but if I can get good results without it, why take the risk?  That is one of the reasons I prefer King Arthur flours.  I also like to avoid using flours from companies like ADM, which have less than stellar records when it comes to the environment.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 03:28:30 PM »
For some recent views on the use of bromated flours from pizza professionals who post over at the PMQ Think Tank, including Tom Lehmann, see the thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10686.

Peter

Online scott123

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 03:31:48 PM »
Theoretically, there is very little residual in bread after baking, so the risk should be small.

This 'risk' from bromate isn't small, it's non existent.  You're talking about a possible carcinogen that's added to flour in parts per million and that ends up in the baked product in parts per billion. Not only has no connection between human cancer and bromate ever been found, the amounts being consumed are infinitesimally small.

Great pizza can be made with unbromated flour, but it's much more difficult to do, especially for the beginning pizzamaker.  Bromate gives you a much wider target to hit when it comes to all the different factors that impact oven spring- such as hydration, fermentation, baking time and gluten formation.

Patrick, you can't get bromated flour in California because you live in a state with paranoid fearmongering lawmakers.


Online scott123

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 03:36:02 PM »
For some recent views on the use of bromated flours from pizza professionals who post over at the PMQ Think Tank, including Tom Lehmann, see the thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10686.

Peter


Quote
Actually, potassium bromate is a carcinogen (it can cause cancer in some individuals).


This is wrong, and I'm disappointed that Tom would be spreading this kind of misinformation.

Offline PizzaBrewer

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 05:16:42 PM »
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/bromate.html

I'd advise staying away from it.  It's not necessary and it is a known carcinogen.
Man does not live by bread alone.  There's also tomato, cheese and pepperoni.

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2011, 06:08:41 PM »
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/bromate.html


Oh, and King Arthur would have absolutely NO reason not to portray bromate in a negative light.  ::) No reason whatsoever.  It's not like they're making money from selling unbromated flour. Oh... wait-

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2011, 06:17:00 PM »
I'd advise staying away from it.  It's not necessary and it is a known carcinogen.

If you're SO worried about carcinogens, then maybe you should be advising people to stay away from the pepperoni that you reference in your signature, because, unlike bromate, there's actual proof that cooked pepperoni is carcinogenic for humans.

And, while you're at it, start a campaign against black pepper- another confirmed carcinogen.

Cooked pepperoni- extensively proven carcinogen for humans
Black pepper- same
Bromate- zero proof that's it's bad for people. Zero, nada, zilch, goose egg.


Offline Essen1

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2011, 06:37:06 PM »
Scotty,

You can get bromated flour in CA, as far as I know, and pizza places are allowed to use it but a label/sign is required that states the use of bromate. However, I have not seen bromated flours in any regular supermarket.

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.answers.com/topic/potassium-bromate

Potassium bromate (KBrO3), is a bromate of potassium and takes the form of white crystals or powder.
Uses in baking

Potassium bromate is typically used as a flour improver (E number E924), strengthening the dough and allowing higher rising. It is an oxidizing agent, and under the right conditions, will be completely used up in the baking bread. However, if too much is added, or if the bread is not baked long enough or not at a high enough temperature, then a residual amount will remain, which may be harmful if consumed. Potassium bromate might also be used in the production of malt barley where the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has prescribed certain conditions where it may be used safely, which includes labeling standards for the finished malt barley product.[1] It is a very powerful oxidizer (E° = 1.5 volts comparable to potassium permanganate). Bromate is considered a category 2B (possibly carcinogenic to humans) carcinogen by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).[2]
Regulation

Potassium bromate has been banned from use in food products in the EU, Canada, Nigeria, Brazil[3], Peru and some other countries. It was banned in Sri Lanka in 2001[4] and China in 2005.

In the United States, it has not been banned. The FDA sanctioned the use of bromate before the Delaney clause of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act—which bans potentially carcinogenic substances— went into effect in 1958, so it is more difficult for it to now be banned. Instead, since 1991 the FDA has urged bakers to voluntarily stop using it. In California a warning label is required when bromated flour is used.

Japanese baked goods manufacturers stopped using potassium bromate voluntarily in 1980; however, Yamazaki Baking resumed its use in 2005, claiming they had new production methods to reduce the amount of the chemical which remained in the final product.[5]

Mike

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Online scott123

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2011, 07:06:56 PM »
However, I have not seen bromated flours in any regular supermarket.

Mike, you can't buy bromated flour in supermarkets here, either, but if you go to a pizzeria supplier, that's all you can buy. Pizzerias here wouldn't touch unbromated flour if you paid them- they know better  ;D

Offline Essen1

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2011, 07:15:56 PM »
Mike, you can't buy bromated flour in supermarkets here, either, but if you go to a pizzeria supplier, that's all you can buy. Pizzerias here wouldn't touch unbromated flour if you paid them- they know better  ;D

You should send that quote to the guys in Sacramento. I have to see if I can get a bag of b-flour from my pizza guy. Will report back.
Mike

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Online scott123

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2011, 07:30:42 PM »
You should send that quote to the guys in Sacramento. I have to see if I can get a bag of b-flour from my pizza guy. Will report back.

A few Californian members have gone to pretty great lengths to score bromated flour and failed. Maybe you have connections that these other members lacked, but don't be surprised if your pizza guy says he can't get it for you. Do you ever make it to Reno? I think you should be able to score some there.  There's also online resources, but paying shipping for flour is kind of ridiculous.

Besides, do you really need bromated flour?  It's perfect for a pizzeria who wants a little more leeway in their approach or a beginning pizzamaker that needs all the help they can get, but, with your experience and skills, I think you can get just as good results out of the Pendleton.

Offline tikidoc

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2011, 07:32:02 PM »
This 'risk' from bromate isn't small, it's non existent.  

A lack of evidence does not necessarily mean a lack of risk.  It is a documented carcinogen in rats and is nephrotoxic to humans, and is also a potent mutagen.

The bottom line is that we just don't know if there is any risk from eating bromated flours, but I would prefer to buy flours that contain just wheat. KA flours are also the most consistent on the market, as far as protein content. I also like the idea that I am buying my flour from a company with a business model that I support.

For the record, I despise both black pepper and pepperoni.


Offline Essen1

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2011, 07:38:53 PM »
A few Californian members have gone to pretty great lengths to score bromated flour and failed. Maybe you have connections that these other members lacked, but don't be surprised if your pizza guy says he can't get it for you. Do you ever make it to Reno? I think you should be able to score some there.  There's also online resources, but paying shipping for flour is kind of ridiculous.

Besides, do you really need bromated flour?  It's perfect for a pizzeria who wants a little more leeway in their approach or a beginning pizzamaker that needs all the help they can get, but, with your experience and skills, I think you can get just as good results out of the Pendleton.

Scotty,

I don't need it but I used it before and loved the results. It was the All Trumps from Pennmac and yes, shipping was more than the entire order so that's not an option.

But it can't hurt to ask my guy to see if he can score a bag.
Mike

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Online scott123

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2011, 08:13:08 PM »
A lack of evidence does not necessarily mean a lack of risk.  It is a documented carcinogen in rats and is nephrotoxic to humans, and is also a potent mutagen.

The bottom line is that we just don't know if there is any risk from eating bromated flours, but I would prefer to buy flours that contain just wheat. KA flours are also the most consistent on the market, as far as protein content. I also like the idea that I am buying my flour from a company with a business model that I support.

For the record, I despise both black pepper and pepperoni.

No black pepper or pepperoni?  Okay... then how about:

Grilled food
Deep fried food
Chocolate
Coffee
Tea
Cinnamon
Nutmeg
Sunlight

because these are all carcinogens as well.

As we speak, there's as much bromate in Californian drinking water supplies as there is in your average bromated flour pizza.  Even IF bromate happens to be carcinogenic to humans, the amounts we're talking about are so small that they were unmeasurable up until a few years ago. Mountain, molehill.

Both water and salt are toxic- in very high doses. Just about everything is toxic- if you consume enough of it.  The parts per billion- let me repeat that, billion, that you see in baked goods have no meaning whatsoever.

And KA flours suck. As soon as you start working with real pizzeria flour, the difference is immediately recognizable.  No one that gets the chance to use pizzeria flour ever goes back to KA. And if you think, for a second that KA's 'business model' is the PR speak that they put on their website, you're kidding yourself.  They're big agribusiness and are just as in bed with Monsanto and just as evil as the rest of them.

Offline PizzaBrewer

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2011, 08:38:06 PM »
If you're SO worried about carcinogens, then maybe you should be advising people to stay away from the pepperoni that you reference in your signature, because, unlike bromate, there's actual proof that cooked pepperoni is carcinogenic for humans.

And, while you're at it, start a campaign against black pepper- another confirmed carcinogen.

Cooked pepperoni- extensively proven carcinogen for humans
Black pepper- same
Bromate- zero proof that's it's bad for people. Zero, nada, zilch, goose egg.

Scott, you and I have agreed in the past on tomatoes, this is one we'll just have to disagree on.  It's a matter of picking and choosing which risks and uncertainties you're willing to expose yourself to.  IMO, bromate isn't necessary, and in my home kitchen and in my brewpub/pizzeria I made the choice to use King Arthur.

Lead in paint made it brighter and more durable, and is completely safe if used and maintained properly.
Beer used to be filtered through asbestos--old timers in the industry have told me it was far superior to any filter media used today, and it was perfectly safe if used correctly.

Risk/reward is both a personal decision and is often also a public policy decision.
Man does not live by bread alone.  There's also tomato, cheese and pepperoni.

Offline PizzaBrewer

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2011, 08:44:58 PM »
No black pepper or pepperoni?  Okay... then how about:

Grilled food
Deep fried food
Chocolate
Coffee
Tea
Cinnamon
Nutmeg
Sunlight

because these are all carcinogens as well.

As we speak, there's as much bromate in Californian drinking water supplies as there is in your average bromated flour pizza.  Even IF bromate happens to be carcinogenic to humans, the amounts we're talking about are so small that they were unmeasurable up until a few years ago. Mountain, molehill.

Both water and salt are toxic- in very high doses. Just about everything is toxic- if you consume enough of it.  The parts per billion- let me repeat that, billion, that you see in baked goods have no meaning whatsoever.

And KA flours suck. As soon as you start working with real pizzeria flour, the difference is immediately recognizable.  No one that gets the chance to use pizzeria flour ever goes back to KA. And if you think, for a second that KA's 'business model' is the PR speak that they put on their website, you're kidding yourself.  They're big agribusiness and are just as in bed with Monsanto and just as evil as the rest of them.

Legitimate question:  What about the exposure to the unbaked flour/dough to the pizza maker?  In a pizzeria kitchen, the pizza maker is constantly handling dough and flour, breathing it, it gets in your eyes and ears and hair, etc.  I also like to taste a bit of uncooked dough when I'm making it.

Again it's an individual decision.  I don't think it's necessary for my purposes, so it's my choice not to use it. 

"KA flours suck"?  I've not heard that very often.  I find them to be excellent.
Man does not live by bread alone.  There's also tomato, cheese and pepperoni.

Offline tikidoc

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Re: bromated flours
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2011, 09:11:56 PM »
Both water and salt are toxic- in very high doses. Just about everything is toxic- if you consume enough of it.  The parts per billion- let me repeat that, billion, that you see in baked goods have no meaning whatsoever.

But if, to me, there is not a benefit, why be exposed to a carcinogen, even in small amounts, if I don't need to be?  Can you tell me anything about the dose response curve of potassium bromate when it comes to its' mutagenic and carcinogenic effects?  Me neither.  I am happy with the results I get with the flour that I use.  Like you said, we are exposed to hundreds of harmful chemicals every day, why not eliminate those that we do not personally benefit from?  You like the bleached and bromated flours, fine, then use them.  But I find the attitude you take towards those who do not downright obnoxious and condescending.

And KA flours suck. As soon as you start working with real pizzeria flour, the difference is immediately recognizable.  No one that gets the chance to use pizzeria flour ever goes back to KA. And if you think, for a second that KA's 'business model' is the PR speak that they put on their website, you're kidding yourself.  They're big agribusiness and are just as in bed with Monsanto and just as evil as the rest of them.

For what I make, which is primarily breads, bagels, and Chicago style pizzas, KA flours are very good.  I disagree with the blanket statement that their flours suck.  They have much tighter specifications than any other well known flour company out there, and are therefore as consistent a product as you will find.  Those specifications may not be ideal for the pizzas that you make, but the quality of the product does not "suck".  Their AP flour makes for an excellent Chicago deep dish crust, and the KASL makes a kick-ass chewy, flavorful bagel.  I do not make enough of other types of pizza that it would be worth getting a big bag of pizzeria flour, and I have yet to see a place that sells smaller amounts for anything I would want to pay.  I don't own a pizzeria, I make pizza at home a few times a month.

As for the business model, yes, KA contracts with Con Agra and other producers that I have a major problem with.  I wish that was not the case, but they are not big enough to do otherwise.  They do control the specs of the flour that is grown and milled for them.  They are an employee owned company that is consistently ranked as an excellent place to work, they have a reputation of treating employees very well, and they do a lot for communities in Vermont.  So while they have ties to big agribusiness (which they are open about), they are certainly not "just as evil" as Monsanto.

So if there was a place where I could buy flour that has as consistent quality as KA from a small, local company, I would, but I am not aware of any.  Would I rather buy a bleached bromated flour with less strict quality control in a Con Agra bag, or an unbleached unbromated consistent flour that meets my needs from a company that is not perfect but has a more positive record of social responsibility?  I choose KA, thanks.


 

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