Author Topic: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.  (Read 7052 times)

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Offline fagilia

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Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« on: December 12, 2011, 09:38:30 AM »
The final design of my oven will be decided of the members on this forum.
After evaluationg pros and cons i will make the design decision of each part of the build.
I have only a couple of guidelines that i have decided on which I will state below.
I will go through all the steps in the build from bottom to the Top.
I will use a metal stand since it worked for shuboyje and obviously Stefano Ferrara.
My initial sktech is inspired by availible pictures of neapolitan ovens as you can se.
I think the most interesting part of the project will be insulation on top of the dome
but first i need to decide the bottom part (floor insulation).

Guidelines and performance
1: The oven must be able to be used as a commercial oven cocking neapolitan pizzas (high temp).
2: It should consume as little wood as possible.
3: It should be able to keep an constant temperature over time (high temp)
4: It has to be mobile. Thats why i will use a metal stand
5: It has to be 48 inch inside DIA since i believe its the smallest commercial oven and also the biggest i have room for.
6: I have more or less decided to use a squirrel tail vent after reading Marcos posts, and looking at pictures of SF ovens.
7: I will make all parts with as good quality as possible and it will probably take time but Im up for the challenge, and i hope to engage as many as possible.

Below is a sketch of what I am aming for but after all the design will be decided of you. The pictures has no insulation of top since i have no ide what to use right now, since shuboyje said most neapolitan ovens are hot on the outside.

After parts are decided i will but them on a drawing and post them in this topic.


Offline fagilia

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 10:20:25 AM »
The first decision that has to be made is what type of  floor and floor insulation to be used. This i guess goes hand in hand.
I can only get a hold of firebricks 230*114*65mm for the floor so this has to be put into consideration.
The options as i understand it are:
1: Tuff stone like SF picture. Does the tuff stones work like insulation only or does it add mass? Anyone have an idea how to use it? Experience?
2: FB board. If so what thickness.
3: vermiculite and Portland cement mix. If so what thickness
4: Perlite and Portland cement mix. If so what thickness

Questions to be answered:
1: Do i need extra mass than 65mm floor thickness. Remember it has to be able to preform in a restaurant over time with high temp.
2: What should i use to level out the space between the floor and the insulation? Sand, salt, lime, water, etc? Shuboya had a good reciept for this i believe.

Im swedish so i have to say sorry for my language.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2011, 02:35:14 PM »
Mass=heat storage, Insulation=efficiency.  It is important to get the amount of mass right for your application, but you can seldom have too much insulation.  Just a note on the whatever you use for the floor.  It is important that the joints be at an angle to the entry.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2011, 02:42:17 PM »
A couple thoughts:

- You have to live with the oven, not us. Be sure you understand the reason for every decision you make.

- SF and MA both make a 105cm commercial oven (41). Maybe others do as well.

- My Acunto (120cm/47) has about 30cm+ (12+) insulation all the way around, on top, and under the deck. I believe the SF ovens are similar. Most Neapolitan ovens may be hot to the tough if you run them every day, but starting cold, I can take mine up to 1000F+ for 8 or 10 hours and it barely gets warm. I would think there must be a correlation between insulation and wood used in the start-up if nothing else. Like Tom, Id error on the side of too much mass and insulation.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline fagilia

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2011, 03:19:21 PM »
I will defenitely go for a 41 inch if it is possible to cock 4 pizzas at the time in it.
That is enough for me.
Anybody else knows if 41 inch is good for making 4 pizzas at a time?

For the floor i will probably use a herringbone pattern described in FB design plans.

As for the insulation i will use alot of it. If you say 30cm then it sounds good to me.
When you talk about insulation in you case Craig do you then mean pertile mix or similar?

So what about the floor would 65mm inch be enough for a commercial oven?

Like Tom, Id error on the side of too much mass and insulation. (sorry but i did not understand this sentence)
 
 
 
 

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2011, 03:33:42 PM »
I will defenitely go for a 41 inch if it is possible to cock 4 pizzas at the time in it.
That is enough for me.
Anybody else knows if 41 inch is good for making 4 pizzas at a time?



From the research I have done, it may be possible to do 4 pizzas at once in a 41 inch oven, but it will be difficult. And that is obviously only addressing the amount of space on the floor you have, not the incredible dexterity and split second timing you must display. A 48 in oven might be a better option if that is your route - assuming you are talking about 12" pies.

Some interesting information here on placement:

http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_oven.htm

John

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2011, 03:36:03 PM »
I have done 3 pizzas at a time, but only after the oven had cooled down to a 3 minute bake.  Ain't no way a human can work 4-90 second pies at a time.

Offline fagilia

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2011, 04:09:27 PM »
Ok, the article was really helpful. Thanks but still i would like more opinions.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2011, 05:29:15 PM »
I've done 2 in my 42" with plenty of space for a third, but 4 would be pushing it, and certainly not what I would want for a commercial venture.  I think 48" is the way to go for a commercial oven.  I'm headed out to fire mine right now, but I'll have more to say about your questions later.
-Jeff

Offline wheelman

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2011, 06:16:49 PM »
42" has space for 3 easy.  you could probably fit 4 if you crowded the fire a bit.  in my experience, one person can handle making and cooking 2 at a time but more than that it would take one person on the bench and another on the oven. 
bill


Online Matthew

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2011, 07:56:34 PM »
I have done 3 pizzas at a time, but only after the oven had cooled down to a 3 minute bake.  Ain't no way a human can work 4-90 second pies at a time.

Tom,
It's not hard at all; just takes practice & you need to move very quickly.  If we didn't do 4 at a time during the rush we'de be in deep crap.  By the time the 4th one goes in the first gets a quick spin & it's done. You  continue to do the same with the 2nd & 3rd. The 4th cooks a bit slower because it's at the mouth. I usually move the 4th to the rear once I spin the 3rd.

Matt
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 07:59:04 PM by Matthew »

Offline JConk007

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2011, 08:31:05 PM »
looks good ! On size, I can do 3 12" no problem in a 40" oven I would go min 48" if you want to do the 4 at once (which is very doable) and yes, you better be alert and you have to stay with the oven not makeing and baking as Matthew said its a must during rush, and with practice it can easily be done.
Do some Research on the insulation thickness, types.. should only take about 2 months to have enough to go on  :-D Thats why I would be buying mine for sure. A sure thing (experienced neapolitan oven builder) is a good thing  and as  craig says, you have to live with the oven. But if you have time, access to the materials (more research) and are up for the challenge we welcome the build !
good luck
John
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 08:35:04 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline shuboyje

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2011, 08:42:34 PM »
I'll start with the original post.

First thing that comes up is the metal stand.  I just want to mention I work with metal for a living, and have training in structural welding.  If this was not the case I would not have put my oven on a metal stand.  Make sure that yourself or whoever fabricates the stand has the experience needed to make it safe.  An oven collapse could easily kill some one, safety must be your first concern so build quality must be #1.  Same goes for the casters, use only top quality industrial casters rated for the intended load.  

As for insulation on top of the dome, traditional or not I would insulate the heck out of it.  Even if you can confirm that traditional ovens have sand over top of them in place of insulation and insist on going this route(I wouldn't) I would still insulate well over top of the sand.

Now for the questions in your second post.

Tuff is a volcanic rock, much like pumice or scoria.  It is light and full of air cavities, so it certainly insulates.  From what I've seen it is formed into rough bricks and a layer is put under the cooking floor much like any other underfloor insulation.  That said I have no clue where you would get it, and just don't think it would be worth the hassle.  Insulation is insulation and I am sure modern insulators are just as good and probably even better.

I've never used FB board, but I do know it is made in asia and many people comment it is much softer then other insulating boards.  You should be able to find cal sil board locally if you want to use a refractory board under the floor.

Vermiculite and Portland and Perlite and Portland will yield similar results.  I personally like the Perlite a bit more but whatever is cheaper is the way to go.  4 inches thick is plenty, but if you want to go over kill 6 inches would be more then enough.

65mm should be plenty thick for the floor.

On to Craig's Acunto,
I've noticed in pictures it seems to be built different then a SF oven(the soldier bricks look to have their wide side facing in), and this sounds like another difference.  SF has the specs for their ovens listed on their website.  If you do the math the mobile oven has no space for insulation around the soldier once the brick thickness is factored in.  The stationary oven does, but we are talking about a mobile oven.  I tend to default to SF as the standard simply because it is the most documented and people all over the world rave about them so I assume they are a good representative.  I have also read a quote from a famous italian pizza maker(can't remember who or find the quote like a dummy) that SF puts a secret mix of salt over the dome and it is the one part of the build he will not let anyone see.  I'd love to hear everything you know about the insulation on your Acunto.

Think that is all for now...
-Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2011, 10:08:57 PM »
On to Craig's Acunto,
I've noticed in pictures it seems to be built different then a SF oven(the soldier bricks look to have their wide side facing in), and this sounds like another difference.
Yes, that is correct about the bricks.

Quote
I'd love to hear everything you know about the insulation on your Acunto.
I think from the pictures and text on the Forno Authentico website, it is probably insulated with a cement/vermiculite mix. I measured the oven, and its about 65 OD and 47 ID. Take out a couple inches for the bricks, and that leaves about 6 of insulation all the way around. From the top of the deck to the bottom of the oven is 13. Its harder to measure the top, but Id estimate it is generally about 12 +/- except where the chimney is, of course.

CL
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Offline fagilia

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2011, 02:57:15 AM »
OK,

So for i have decided to use a:
1200mm oven for 4 pizzas
65mm floor firebricks in herringbone pattern
300mm insulation under the floor pertile or vermiculate mix

Only thing left in this stage is what to use to level out the surface under the floor tiles? Somebody have a better idea than Shuboyje?


I have both time and a company that works both in construction and architectual business so I am fortunate. I have employees here who can make the stand for me with good quality.
Even if the project turns out as a fail i will have learned a great deal about my passion. My goal is to start a pizzeria
in Sweden and then i will buy a oven if this one do not meet my high demands set in the first post.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2011, 01:48:48 PM »
Only thing left in this stage is what to use to level out the surface under the floor tiles?

Why not pour your base of insulating cement mix then use fine sand to level the floor tiles? Isn't this how it is most often done?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2011, 08:29:17 PM »
Thanks for the info Craig, the Acunto ovens look very well insulated.  That makes me wonder which branch of the Acunto family supplied the first oven for Una Pizza Napoletana when they were in New York because I've read comments from them that the SF oven used much less wood, which has my wheels spinning.

The method used in the Pompeii e-book is to make a "paste" of 1 part sand to 1 part fire clay.  I used it on my first oven and found it to be a pain.  When I built my new oven I tried it again, and just was not happy with the result.  Problem is both times I've done it has been the heat of the summer, the paste dries out too fast and you can't adjust the bricks easily.

The method I decided on was making a slurry of 1:1 fireclay and sand which I then applied to the insulation and leveled with a screed.  This dried to a smooth flat surface I was able to set my bricks directly on, just like they do with cal sil board minus the horrible lung clogging fibers I work to avoid.
-Jeff

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2011, 10:09:28 PM »
Shu,  It was part of the instructions,  but it has been either removed or overruled.  I used the method for my my oven and it was incredibly frustrating.  When I poured my insulation layer,  I set up forms, and scraped the pour clean.  With angle iron.  It was smooth,  flat and level.  The mixture of fireclay and sand was a nightmare compared to what I could have had.  When I did the dry layout,  it was nearly perfect.  This was the biggest mistake I made during my build.  My 2 cents for this thread.  -Marc

Offline fagilia

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 03:55:28 AM »
I have been studying this topic only for 2 months now but it seems to me the big questions are:
1: How do they minimize the wood consumptions, like SF for example? (chimeny, insulation, combination etc?)
2: How do they do to keep temperature stable with little effort over time so you are able to cock as many pizzas in one day as pizzanapoletana describes?

I think there are many people here who have put a lot of thinking into these general problems and it would be really cool if everybody could
give their thoughts right or wrong. Maby if everybody works togeather we can come a little bit closer to the perfect pizza oven. That would have been fantastic!

Also, is there anbybody who think it will be a bad idea to level the insulation surface perfectly before putting the firebricks on like shuboyje describes?
If I understand it correctly, the surface should be dry and hard before assembling the firebricks?


Offline fagilia

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Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 03:58:27 AM »
One more thing widespreadpizza. My English is not that good so could you explain again with more simple steps
what you mean with your last post. Do you agree with shuboye or not?
Sorry again!


 

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