Author Topic: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.  (Read 6809 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wheelman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 841
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2011, 09:12:59 AM »
my first oven has a concrete base, with a pearlcrete insulating layer over - finished flat.  my second oven has a concrete base - finished flat - with a layer of insulating board over.  Both have the floor on top of a thin layer of dry sand to level.  both were easy and work well.  the insulating board floor oven is better insulated.
i think the wood consumption issue depends on insulation and oven size. 
Stable temps depend largely on oven management technique, and will be less of a problem with an oven that is operated daily for long periods of time.  you'll get this part figured out quickly. 
my 2 cents!
bill


Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1086
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 09:48:26 AM »
Dry sand sounds great to me.  How thick of a layer do you think you used?  Do you think having it move would be an issue on a mobile oven?   That would be my concern
-Jeff

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3377
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2011, 09:49:26 AM »
The easiest and most effective way is to wet set the floor brick using either regular mortar or refractory cement.  Just a skim coat, enough to level the brick.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12345
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 10:35:50 AM »
Thanks for the info Craig, the Acunto ovens look very well insulated.  That makes me wonder which branch of the Acunto family supplied the first oven for Una Pizza Napoletana when they were in New York because I've read comments from them that the SF oven used much less wood, which has my wheels spinning.

I don't think it is the same as mine - it doesn't look anything like it. I don't think the oven in UPN/Motorino was built on site. I seem to remember him talking about being worried that it wouldn't fit through the fron of the restaurant, but maybe I'm confusing it with someplace else?

As for wood usage, I'm sure there are plenty of factors, but insulation intuitively would be near the top of the list. The more easily the heat escapes, the more fuel you need to replace the lost heat and keep the oven hot. Itís pretty basic physics.

I think the physical size of the wood burned (the cross-section in particular) is the other important factor. For the same mass of wood, a larger log burns slower and longer than several smaller ones (less oxygen in contact with the fuel in a larger log). Generally speaking, the same amount of energy is released either way, but it is released over a longer period of time when burning a larger log.

Here is my theory on wood consumption, keeping in mind that I want an open flame when I bake. If I didnít, insulation might be even more of a factor. For me, I always have to have a fire burning which means Iím consuming fuel when I might not need to be if I was only concerned with maintain the operating temperature:

I think insulation is the most important factor.  The better the insulation, the less energy you need in a given amount of time to keep the oven warm. If your oven is well insulated, once you get it up to temperature, you can burn larger logs for the open flame (and replacement heat) during the bake. This works in a well-insulated oven because you donít need as much replacement heat to keep the oven at operating temperatures. If you used smaller logs for the open flame, you would burn more fuel simply because they burn faster.

Letís say you have a less well insulated oven of the same size, once you get it up to operating temperatures, you will either need to burn smaller logs which burn and release their energy faster or several larger logs simultaneously to replace the heat lost and keep the oven at operating temperature.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1086
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2011, 12:26:24 PM »
Not to get off topic but for clarity the oven currently at Motorino is a SF oven, originally Una pizza napoletana had an Acunto oven in that location which they replaced at some point during their time there.  There are two branches of the Acunto family tree making ovens in Naples, I'm just not sure which branch his was from. 
-Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12345
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2011, 12:47:04 PM »
Not to get off topic but for clarity the oven currently at Motorino is a SF oven, originally Una pizza napoletana had an Acunto oven in that location which they replaced at some point during their time there.  There are two branches of the Acunto family tree making ovens in Naples, I'm just not sure which branch his was from. 


I think he's right. I'm pretty sure the oven at UPN/EV - Motorino/EV is a Gianni Acunto oven. http://www.acunto.it/en/company

Mine is Mario Acunto. The oven in UPN/San Francisco is an SF.

According to this article in the NYT, it is an Acunto. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/dining/09matt.html

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline wheelman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 841
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2011, 03:12:06 PM »
Dry sand sounds great to me.  How thick of a layer do you think you used?  Do you think having it move would be an issue on a mobile oven?   That would be my concern

my second oven is trailer mounted and i haven't noticed any problems with the floor moving.  i have large firebricks for a floor in that oven.  the sand layer was about a quarter of an inch or so.  the floor was not difficult to get level with that.
bill

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 295
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2011, 02:54:38 AM »
OK, thank you so far.
I believe that wheelmans last post forces me to try out both methods before i decide which one i will use.
So if any person disagrres with something stated below for a 48inch commercial oven as stated in the first post please let me know.
If you think it is a good idea please say this too..

1: 30cm insulation pertile concrete meix since its cheap in Sweden
2: leveling with either sand or wet fireclay mix
3: 65mm firebrick floor in herringbone pattern

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 295
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2011, 03:09:12 AM »
Next step, oven entrance!!!

As you can see i have stolen the design for the entrance based on various pictures and pizzanapoletanos description of a oven entrance.
It will be made out of 10mm thick steel corten steel since i will not hot galvanize it.
Any other material sugestions?

Pizzanapoletana describes a 44cm wide and 22cm high entrance in arch shape.
This was for a 42inch oven. Do i have to multiply these numbers with 1,14 to get the right measurments? (48/42=1,14)

In my design the chimeny starts directly above the entrance steel plate. In my design i have 100mm between oven opening and where the chimeny starts.
Would this be ok. I have tried to measure from pictures. Maby we have some real experience?

This step will also be discussed later talking about insulation since my entrance will not be inslutaed that much!!

Questions:
1: material
2: equation to calculate dimension of opening?
3: how important is this step really?
4: How high over the entrance should the chimeny start?

I would like as many opinions as possible

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 295
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2011, 07:36:11 AM »
here is a link with some info but i dont know if it is trsutable:

http://www.fuocoelegna.it/costruzione.php

It says a 120cm oven should have a opening 50cm wide and 28cm high.


Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3377
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2011, 08:08:22 AM »
The width isn't critical, but the inner arch height apparently needs to be close to 63% of the height of the  dome.

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1086
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2011, 09:47:14 AM »
My understating is that they only make on size door in Naples and all ovens use that size.  I went a different route for ease of building, structural stability, and insulation.  My decision is documented in by build pretty well.
-Jeff

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1086
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2011, 12:13:41 PM »
I did some research last night that only confused me more.  The oven at UPN In the video "naturally risen" is certainly a Gianni Acunto.  I could swear I've read that he switched to a SF oven while still in New York but can't find that info anywhere.  All the articles about his new location say he is using the same oven he had in New York, and his new oven is a SF for sure.  Confusing part is when I pulled up a video of Motorino EV they seem to be using the same oven seen in "naturally risen" with different tile.   Am I going crazy?
I think he's right. I'm pretty sure the oven at UPN/EV - Motorino/EV is a Gianni Acunto oven. http://www.acunto.it/en/company

Mine is Mario Acunto. The oven in UPN/San Francisco is an SF.

According to this article in the NYT, it is an Acunto. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/dining/09matt.html

CL
-Jeff

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2011, 12:28:43 PM »
I did some research last night that only confused me more.  The oven at UPN In the video "naturally risen" is certainly a Gianni Acunto.  I could swear I've read that he switched to a SF oven while still in New York but can't find that info anywhere.  All the articles about his new location say he is using the same oven he had in New York, and his new oven is a SF for sure.  Confusing part is when I pulled up a video of Motorino EV they seem to be using the same oven seen in "naturally risen" with different tile.   Am I going crazy?

No, you are not going crazy. Anthony Mangieri, while still in NYC, installed a Gianni Acunto a few years before he sold it to Motorino. When he opened the new UPN in San Fran, he had a SF installed.

After Motorino moved in, they re-tiled the white Acunto with black. I have no idea why. I also do not know if they have since installed a SF there.

John

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12345
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2011, 12:56:05 PM »
No, you are not going crazy. Anthony Mangieri, while still in NYC, installed a Gianni Acunto a few years before he sold it to Motorino. When he opened the new UPN in San Fran, he had a SF installed.

After Motorino moved in, they re-tiled the white Acunto with black. I have no idea why. I also do not know if they have since installed a SF there.

John

No SF at Motorino/EV, I was there a couple weeks ago, and it is the same G. Acunto (in black as you noted - it looked better in white, IMHO).

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1216
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2011, 09:35:26 PM »
Little late getting back,  but yes I agree with shu about the floor.  should be flat before the bricks go on,  unless that is not an option.  It is an option if you plan it right.  -Marc

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 295
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2011, 05:01:54 AM »
Never to late to get back!!

Here are my thoghts ot the entrance after reading and studying.
I think there might be an idea to insulate the front like everybody in forums do in opposite to neapolitan builders.
I have done a compromise. I left room between the soldiers and the entrance plate 50-60mm so i could press in a 50 mm ceramic
blanket in between. This would give a realtively good insulation. Better than nothing i guess.
What you guys think of these thouht??
The oven opening i had to make to 47cm since swedish pizza is 35cm wide and not 30cm. Any remarks on this?

I put 100mm 4 inch  in between opening and the vent hood. Is this sufficient?
This i would be happy to get opinions about.
I made my decision based on this picture below.

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 295
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2011, 05:04:03 AM »
th picture i based space between openin and vent

Offline kuppelofen

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 4
    • Pizzaoven germany
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2011, 02:50:28 PM »
Hi

here you find some pictures of neapolitan ovens.

http://www.kuppelofen.de/3_acuntoforni_beschr.html


Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12345
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Neapolitan oven build where design is decided by you.
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2011, 06:18:54 PM »
That's a good looking oven!    ;D
Pizza is not bread.