Author Topic: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough  (Read 31449 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24210
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #150 on: January 03, 2012, 08:59:15 PM »
Norma


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24210
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #151 on: January 03, 2012, 09:00:05 PM »
Norma

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24210
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #152 on: January 03, 2012, 09:00:56 PM »
Norma

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24210
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #153 on: January 03, 2012, 09:03:32 PM »
Norma

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24210
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #154 on: January 03, 2012, 09:04:36 PM »
Norma

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24210
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #155 on: January 03, 2012, 09:05:45 PM »
Norma

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #156 on: January 03, 2012, 11:09:02 PM »
John and anyone else that is interested,

The piece of scaled dough that was left to cold ferment without balling, was balled today at about 1:10 pm. The dough ball sat at room temperature for a little over 3 hrs.  I decided to open the dough ball around 4:30 pm.  The dough ball was easy to open and had more bubbles in the skin than my other preferments Lehmann dough skins today.  The resulting pizza baked well and was different than my regular pizzas today.  The crumb was lighter and the texture was better.  The bottom crust also browned well.  Steve, my taste testers, and I all were surprised how well this pizza baked with Johnís methods.  Steve and I kept talking about what a difference Johnís method made in the final pizza. 

Norma

Norma
Thanks for giving it a shot...it's hard to believe its the same dough, huh???

Not to drag this on and on....but....here's a pizza made from dough which was in the fridge 118 hours, taken out and balled 3 hours prior to baking.....this is 5 beauties in a row.  Looking forward to the Peter challenge...coming soon!!

John

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24210
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #157 on: January 04, 2012, 07:58:11 AM »
Norma
Thanks for giving it a shot...it's hard to believe its the same dough, huh???

John


John,

You are correct, it was hard to believe it was the same dough.  :) I want to do some more experiments with the preferment Lehmann dough, but don't know how to go about them right now.

Norma

Offline DannyG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 132
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #158 on: January 04, 2012, 09:49:35 AM »
John,
This may seem like a simple question but how do you ball your dough? I find that there are two basic methods. After cutting your dough into the appropriate weights you can;

1. pick up the dough and start folding the edges over and rotating approximately 90 degrees each fold. After 6-8 folds, turn the ball over and twist the bottom to close any open edges.

2. take your loose dough and keeping it on the counter, use your hand to form an inverted cup and roll the dough until the ball is formed.

IMO the first method works the dough more. It's almost like a folding method of kneeding. The second method is more gentler on the dough. The reason I ask is because you are balling just a few hours before making the pie and I'm wondering how that might effect your final results.


Offline cosgrojo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 65
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #159 on: January 04, 2012, 10:38:16 AM »
John, I have been fascinated by this thread as well, and through my own meager experience, agree with your theory. I second Danny's request about your balling technique. I use technique number two... But I feel that I may knead more aggressively at the beginning than most do. What say you sir? Thanks.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #160 on: January 05, 2012, 03:09:27 PM »
John, I have been fascinated by this thread as well, and through my own meager experience, agree with your theory. I second Danny's request about your balling technique. I use technique number two... But I feel that I may knead more aggressively at the beginning than most do. What say you sir? Thanks.

I don't know how far you have followed this thread, but I prefer to scale my dough right after mixing, to make it easier to experiment with regard to different fermentation times.  So, after I scale it, I very lightly round the dough just to have a smooth skin, I then place in oiled refrigerator containers.  When it's time to ball I carefully release the dough from the container, and I gently ball the dough making the bottom of the dough become the inner part of the new dough ball.  I find this works great because the bottom is very soft and tends to make a dough ball very simply with very little work.  Also the top of the dough is already fairly smooth and remains that way through the balling process.  Hope that was fairly clear, kind of hard to describe in words.  Now, that you have made me think about it....I wonder how a more strenuous balling would affect the dough....Maybe someone could try it???

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #161 on: January 05, 2012, 03:17:59 PM »
Peter
 I'm beginning a new experiment using my methods in a 500 degree home oven to see what a lower temperature will do. 

Before I do though...I had one more dough from my last batch. I had faith after alot of experimenting, this pizza would be good, but had no idea it could possibly bake up this nice. This pizza was baked in my home oven at 500 degrees.  This pizza was made from a dough which was in the fridge 166 hours, it was taken out, balled and left to set out for 3 hours prior to bake.  This is a 13 ounce dough, stretched to 12.5 inches, it took 8 minutes to bake, it has color, but not as much as a hotter bake, it is still crisp, (crunchy crisp), just a little softer....and it is delicious.
John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #162 on: January 05, 2012, 03:35:29 PM »
John and anyone else that is interested,

The piece of scaled dough that was left to cold ferment without balling, was balled today at about 1:10 pm. The dough ball sat at room temperature for a little over 3 hrs.  I decided to open the dough ball around 4:30 pm.  The dough ball was easy to open and had more bubbles in the skin than my other preferments Lehmann dough skins today.  The resulting pizza baked well and was different than my regular pizzas today.  The crumb was lighter and the texture was better.  The bottom crust also browned well.  Steve, my taste testers, and I all were surprised how well this pizza baked with Johnís methods.  Steve and I kept talking about what a difference Johnís method made in the final pizza. 

Norma
 
Norma
After seeing the result of your pizza I couldn't wait to get going on a cooler home oven experiment.  So here goes:

Here is the recipe I used, I'm using ADM High  Gluten flour
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (.5%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (168.5%):
Single Ball:
1019.59 g  |  35.96 oz | 2.25 lbs
632.15 g  |  22.3 oz | 1.39 lbs
5.1 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.69 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
20.39 g | 0.72 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.65 tsp | 1.22 tbsp
20.39 g | 0.72 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.53 tsp | 1.51 tbsp
20.39 g | 0.72 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.11 tsp | 1.7 tbsp
1718.01 g | 60.6 oz | 3.79 lbs | TF = N/A
286.33 g | 10.1 oz | 0.63 lbs

Placed all ingredients except oil and flour in mixing bowl and stirred.  Added flour and mixed on stir until it started to come together and then added the oil.  Mixed until dough was smooth...about 6 or 7 minutes.
Dough was scaled, lightly rounded, and placed in refrigerator containers.  I made six 10 ounce doughs.  The first pizza is made from a dough which was refrigerated for 36 hours, taken out, balled and left to sit out 3 hours prior to bake.  Baked in a 500 degree oven, quarry tiles on very highest rack.  This is a 10 inch pizza made from a 10 ounce dough, and it baked in 6 minutes and 40 seconds.  Has very good color, is crisp, a little softer than a hot bake......delicious!!!!!  And one hour later, the slices have enough body to stick straight out.  The only downfall from the hotter bake (and it's a very slight downfall), is that the crust is just a hair chewy..........good first result!!
John

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23450
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #163 on: January 05, 2012, 03:56:23 PM »
John,

Is the last pizza part of the experiment that I suggested? And can you clarify what you mean by the "hotter bake" (in the last sentence)?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23450
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #164 on: January 05, 2012, 04:08:47 PM »
When it's time to ball I carefully release the dough from the container, and I gently ball the dough making the bottom of the dough become the inner part of the new dough ball.  I find this works great because the bottom is very soft and tends to make a dough ball very simply with very little work.  Also the top of the dough is already fairly smooth and remains that way through the balling process.  Hope that was fairly clear, kind of hard to describe in words.  Now, that you have made me think about it....I wonder how a more strenuous balling would affect the dough....Maybe someone could try it???


John,

I am having a hard time visualizing the above. I assume that you are not doing an aggressive reknead of the dough ball and that you are not doing stretch and folds. Are you pressing the bottom of the dough ball into the middle of the dough ball, sort of like a gentle folds into the center from all sides, and then pinching and resealing the "new" bottom in some fashion so that it is smooth? I was imagining a fairly aggressive reworking of the dough ball.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 04:11:48 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7222
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #165 on: January 05, 2012, 04:54:17 PM »
John that is pretty much how I reball as well.  It's very gentle and minimal unless the dough is really slack.  I basically only manipulate the dough with as little effort as is required for it to hold it's shape.

Offline cosgrojo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 65
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #166 on: January 05, 2012, 05:00:50 PM »
John- yup I understood your process of scaling in the beginning. I don't make more than 2-3 dough ball amounts at a time, so I bulk ferment it. But I don't think that matters honestly. I think that doing the balling (for me) or the re-balling (for you) a few hours before stretch and bake is the defining technique. Honestly I do the bulk rise as a space saver, so I don't have to have multiple containers taking up my wife's space (she's very territorial).

I think that what we are dealing with is the difference between relaxed gluten, and semi-relaxed gluten. I'm thinking that maybe that a reball or ball this close to stretch and bake would not do so well in say, sub 60% hydration, cuz the gluten wouldn't have enough water to relax in... Just a thought... Any insights into that?

But I will admit that I, like Peter, was envisioning a slightly more aggressive reball. I try to be gentle because it is my first balling... But I am an aggressive kneader by nature... My form of stress relief. :)

Thanks for the conversation.

Josh


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #167 on: January 05, 2012, 07:03:57 PM »
John,

Is the last pizza part of the experiment that I suggested? And can you clarify what you mean by the "hotter bake" (in the last sentence)?

Peter
Peter,
The second pizza shown was made from a new batch I mixed to specifically be baked at 500 degrees using my balling methods..........but, I had one dough left from last week, that I chose to bake at 500 degrees, just to see if I could.....and I was very, very excited with the results, almost to the point that I know this weeks dough will have no problem baking up great.  I've got 5 more dough balls to bake as I have time this week from my new batch.  When I say "hotter bake", I mean 580 degrees to 610 degrees which I can reach in my home oven.

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #168 on: January 05, 2012, 07:16:29 PM »

John,

I am having a hard time visualizing the above. I assume that you are not doing an aggressive reknead of the dough ball and that you are not doing stretch and folds. Are you pressing the bottom of the dough ball into the middle of the dough ball, sort of like a gentle folds into the center from all sides, and then pinching and resealing the "new" bottom in some fashion so that it is smooth? I was imagining a fairly aggressive reworking of the dough ball.

Peter

Peter
I take my container of dough, gently turn it upside down to release the dough in a whole continuous piece onto my hand.  The top is now what was the bottom as it sat in its container.  The top is very soft and moist...and this soft piece of dough is what I work into the middle of the new dough ball, stretching the bottom around it.....roughly.....this seems to be the easiest, softest way to make a smooth dough ball when balling later in the process...because it takes so little pressure and very little actual manipulation.  Please though Peter, understand that I have no reason to believe that this is the best way,...this is just my evolution of the method so far...like I said before, maybe a more thorough balling would make even a better dough....I haven't got that far yet...maybe Chau has some insight.....I'm sure I'll investigate sooner or later.

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #169 on: January 05, 2012, 07:28:58 PM »

I think that what we are dealing with is the difference between relaxed gluten, and semi-relaxed gluten. I'm thinking that maybe that a reball or ball this close to stretch and bake would not do so well in say, sub 60% hydration, cuz the gluten wouldn't have enough water to relax in... Just a thought... Any insights into that?

Josh

Josh
That is worthy of investigation.  I have investigated 55% hydrated doughs, but the time from ball to bake was longer......... And I still experience, that for my taste, almost any dough that I use, which has been reballed, or bulk fermented and balled is better than the dough which is balled after mixing.  And so perhaps the limits come upon us as we shorten the time from ball to bake or lower the hydration of doughs.  Calls for experimentation Josh!

John

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7222
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #170 on: January 05, 2012, 08:47:21 PM »
Peter
I take my container of dough, gently turn it upside down to release the dough in a whole continuous piece onto my hand.  The top is now what was the bottom as it sat in its container.  The top is very soft and moist...and this soft piece of dough is what I work into the middle of the new dough ball, stretching the bottom around it.....roughly.....this seems to be the easiest, softest way to make a smooth dough ball when balling later in the process...because it takes so little pressure and very little actual manipulation.  Please though Peter, understand that I have no reason to believe that this is the best way,...this is just my evolution of the method so far...like I said before, maybe a more thorough balling would make even a better dough....I haven't got that far yet...maybe Chau has some insight.....I'm sure I'll investigate sooner or later.

John

John, I think the amount and way that you reball is on track.  For me, it is done by feel.   When I first started experimenting with reballing, there were several times where I reballed too aggressively and/or did not allow enough time for the dough to relax prior to baking.  The result is a doughball that is too elastic and tough to open without risk of tearing.  The result is still a similar crumb but a much thicker pizza.  If one were to reball too agressively, and especially with a low hydration high gluten flour dough, even an extensive rest period prior to baking may not be enough to allow the dough to relax.

Here are a few examples of reballing too agressively prior to baking...

reply #28.  This one was reballed prior to baking.  I was a newbie at that time and referring to it as a stretch and fold, but it was actually reballed.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10734.20.html

Reply #575-#581 of Norma's Lehman dough with preferment.
Again, fairly dry dough, reballed out of the fridge a few hours before baking.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.580.html

The result was a dough that was difficult to open resulting in a thick pizza crust.

Offline cosgrojo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 65
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #171 on: January 05, 2012, 08:57:29 PM »
So I guess my theory is that the length of time  between ball and bake to get the optimum pie relates directly to the wetness of the dough. I think that a very wet dough may be at its optimum after say 1 hour (completely arbitrary numbers just for discussion), while a drier dough might not hit its peak for 2-4 hours after reball. To take it a bit further, I think that it is possible to get almost identical end product pies with a variety of different hydration levels simply by stretching and baking at the proper moment of gluten relaxation.  The caveat to this theory is that I think this conversation hits a road block at higher temperatures. I'm not sure exactly why I think that, but I think neopolitan baking temps would nullify a lot of this discussion, mostly because of what the heat will do to the extra moisture.

What we need is an Americas Test Kitchen style studio to gather forum member to perform these experiments in a controlled environment where we can chart our findings.

I'm leaning toward the belief that the techniques used to ball or reball, are mostly inconsequential, that the real goal is to determine when the gluten is at the ideal level of rest for the particular hydration level of the dough you are working with. Am I crazy? Or does that make any sense?

Josh

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7222
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #172 on: January 05, 2012, 09:29:10 PM »
Josh, I don't know if John will agree or disagree with me but IMO you are on the right track.  IMO, it's not so much the time of balling or even the amount of balling.  These are only singular variables.  Pizza making is a symphony of many variables coming together.  In the end it is a balance of all the factors that result in the proper amount of gluten strength coupled with the proper bake (heat and time).

I discussed some of these factors that affect gluten development and strength in one of John's threads earlier here....reply#5

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16618.0.html

In short, gluten strength is affected by protein content, hydration ratio, % of salt, use of oil or fats, amount of physical aggitation of the dough (mixer vs hand techniques - hand kneading, stretch and folds, balling and reballing), type and amount of yeast, length of fermentation, temperature of fermentation, extent of proofing,
and possible a host of other variables I am unaware of.    The nice thing is that once you learn the consistency and feel of your dough and the results it will produce, you can make dough by feel and that will get you into the ball park of your ideal results.  

You are also correct, that at really high temps or conversely really low temps, you will have to adjust the formula to maintain similar crust and crumb characteristics.  So in short, you will have to adjust your formula to your oven and how it bakes.  This is why following someone else's formula verbatim may not produce the same exact results.  Your oven may bake very differently, but it should get you close.

Having said that, the act of reballing if not done in excess, for most recipes, builds gluten strength that will mitigate the dough softening effects of a long fermentation (regardless of temp) which results in a more airy and light texture.   Just saying this to say that if members do not wish to create a more airy and light texture, but like a dense and more chewy crust, that they should avoid reballing their dough.

Chau
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 09:31:34 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #173 on: January 05, 2012, 11:46:10 PM »
So I guess my theory is that the length of time  between ball and bake to get the optimum pie relates directly to the wetness of the dough. I think that a very wet dough may be at its optimum after say 1 hour (completely arbitrary numbers just for discussion), while a drier dough might not hit its peak for 2-4 hours after reball. To take it a bit further, I think that it is possible to get almost identical end product pies with a variety of different hydration levels simply by stretching and baking at the proper moment of gluten relaxation.  The caveat to this theory is that I think this conversation hits a road block at higher temperatures. I'm not sure exactly why I think that, but I think neopolitan baking temps would nullify a lot of this discussion, mostly because of what the heat will do to the extra moisture.

Josh
Your thoughts regarding getting identical end products using a variety of different hydrations is spot on in my opinion.  It was the experiencing of this exact phenomenon, that lead me to these experiments.  So, your instincts are good.  I also agree that these discussions don't apply to neapolitan pizzas.

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #174 on: January 05, 2012, 11:59:04 PM »
Josh, I don't know if John will agree or disagree with me but IMO you are on the right track.  IMO, it's not so much the time of balling or even the amount of balling.  These are only singular variables.  Pizza making is a symphony of many variables coming together.  In the end it is a balance of all the factors that result in the proper amount of gluten strength coupled with the proper bake (heat and time).

I discussed some of these factors that affect gluten development and strength in one of John's threads earlier here....reply#5

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16618.0.html

In short, gluten strength is affected by protein content, hydration ratio, % of salt, use of oil or fats, amount of physical aggitation of the dough (mixer vs hand techniques - hand kneading, stretch and folds, balling and reballing), type and amount of yeast, length of fermentation, temperature of fermentation, extent of proofing,
and possible a host of other variables I am unaware of.    The nice thing is that once you learn the consistency and feel of your dough and the results it will produce, you can make dough by feel and that will get you into the ball park of your ideal results.  

You are also correct, that at really high temps or conversely really low temps, you will have to adjust the formula to maintain similar crust and crumb characteristics.  So in short, you will have to adjust your formula to your oven and how it bakes.  This is why following someone else's formula verbatim may not produce the same exact results.  Your oven may bake very differently, but it should get you close.

Having said that, the act of reballing if not done in excess, for most recipes, builds gluten strength that will mitigate the dough softening effects of a long fermentation (regardless of temp) which results in a more airy and light texture.   Just saying this to say that if members do not wish to create a more airy and light texture, but like a dense and more chewy crust, that they should avoid reballing their dough.

Chau
Thanks for all of your insight Chau. 

I think I only have one small difference of opinion with you.  You say that the time of balling and the amount of balling are just singular variables in the process of making pizza.  I couldn't agree more....BUT...I maintain, these variables might be the strongest variables in the process.  I do agree though, that these variables in concert with the monitoring of the myriad of other variables is the path to fine tuning.
Again Chau, thanks!
John


 

pizzapan