Author Topic: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough  (Read 26096 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #180 on: January 06, 2012, 11:45:17 AM »
Dan, I don't understand this? If you carefully dissolve your yeast into the water, why would you not have an even distribution?

CL

Craig,

I don't know how Dan does it, but many pizza operators simply crumble the cake yeast on top of the flour before mixing.

Peter


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #181 on: January 06, 2012, 11:54:17 AM »
Interesting. Sounds like I'm a little more agressive than you when balling. I use a fair amount of force and pull the ball in pretty tight. On the other hand, when opening the skin, I'm as gentle as possible. Granted there is generally 8-12 hours in between. If I was only going to be in balls for a couple hours, I would not do this.

CL

Exactly Craig.  It depends on what style of crust and at what point in the fermentation I am balling.  When I do NP pies, I tend to ball earlier in the process compared to NY style or hybrid pies.  For the NP style, I have been balling sooner, very tightly as you do and allowing for a longer proof time.

Chau

Offline JimmyG

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #182 on: January 06, 2012, 12:08:16 PM »
Peter and Dan,
Since yeast growth is exponential, I would think that time and temp would play a more critical role in yeast distribution over the long term assuming that your dough is properly mixed.
Jim
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 01:03:36 PM by JimmyG »
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Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #183 on: January 06, 2012, 12:43:13 PM »
John,

Will be watching your experiments.  Interesting!  ;D

Norma
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Offline DannyG

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #184 on: January 07, 2012, 11:36:38 AM »
OBJECTIVE: Compare a short bulk/long ball ferment to a long bulk/short ball ferment.

Dough:
Flour: 100%  (All Trumps)
Water: 60%
Salt: 2%
Oil: 2%
IDY: 0.25%

Made enough dough for (4) 275 gram pies.

Poolish:
Flour: 33% (of the above amounts)
Water: 50%
IDY: 22%

The Mix
Poolish Ė combine ingredients, mix and rest for 7 hours at room temperature

-Add remaining ingredients to poolish
-mix in KA for 4 minutes
-rest 5 minutes
-mix in KA 4 minutes
-rest 20 minutes at room temperature

Split dough in half-
1st Half
-Bulk ferment at room temperature for 2 hours
-split and ball, place in individual containers. cold ferment in refrigerator for 42 hours
-pull from refrigerator and let sit at room temperature for 4 hours
-assemble and bake

2nd Half
-Place in container and put in refrigerator. Cold ferment for 44 hours
-split and ball, rest at room temperature for 4 hours
assemble and bake

The pies were baked in a GE electric oven with a maximum temperature of 550 degrees. I use a fibrement stone which reached a maximum temperature of 605 degrees.


RESULTS
This was my first time using a poolish but since John was doing it I thought I would give it a try. I also followed his mix for most parts. The first photo below shows the dough balls after they were taken from the refrigerator. Obviously the dough that was balled earlier had the most development. The description of each photo is in the title caption.

Long Bulk/Sort Ball
I found making dough balls from cold refrigerated dough to be a little difficult. I tried to handle the dough as little as possible and after splitting the bulk, tried to lightly fold under the edges, but it took a lot of effort to pinch the dough closed. I also found this dough more difficult to sheet as it was not as relaxed as the long fermented balls. You can see that I did not get a very round pizza. Also, as soon as I started to sheet the dough it was producing gas bubbles like crazy. The pie cooked in about 4 minutes, 20 seconds, had nice flavor and was very tender.

Short Bulk/Long Ball
This is my usual way of making pizza so there were no surprises. It sheeted very easily and baked in about the same amount of time. It was also a very good tasting pie and very tender. Both my wife and I agreed that this was the better of the two but the difference was hardly noticeable.

CONCLUSION
There are so many variables in making pizza. The results I got could be totally different with any change of ingredient or technique. Even a larger batch of dough might effect the results, especially in the bulk part of fermentation. That being said, I found only a slight difference between the two fermentations methods but overall preferred the short bulk/long ball process. It is also an easier process as the dough is being balled at room temperature. (The plastic containers I use for dough balls are from take-out chinese food and with their plastic tops make perfect dough containers that can be stacked in the refrig. As the dough ball ferments the container keeps it perfectly round and I can just flip them over to drop out the dough with minimum handling.)


Offline DannyG

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #185 on: January 07, 2012, 11:37:27 AM »
More photos;

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #186 on: January 07, 2012, 01:13:15 PM »
Dan, I don't understand this? If you carefully dissolve your yeast into the water, why would you not have an even distribution?

CL

The distribution of the yeast is uniform. What I am referring to is the density of each yeast colony. Perhaps an example is better to explain my idea. Suppose you have a handful of marbles (representing the yeast cells) and you throw then on the floor. Only some of them will grow in a competitive environment and reach complete stationary phase (Growing outwardly in 3 dimensions). On a microscopic level, there are perhaps areas in between yeast colonies where their outward growth is overlapping, but no colony originally started from this "space". You would expect there to be localized areas of undigested, un-tapped substrates where the yeast density is thin. So what I am saying is this represents a "coarse" distribution, (ie, fewer but larger colonies.) When you now take the marbles and chop them up (aka reball the dough) and throw them on the floor again, the process repeats. This time however you have already competitively selected for strong growing colonies and their distribution is "finer", a higher percentage of the marble pieces will grow. (ie, more individual colonies but perhaps smaller in size due to limited substrates, more competition, etc.). Their size when they reach this secondary stationary phase is now more limited by the amount of un-tapped substrate remaining in the dough.

I of course do not have microscopic vision, just throwing out some more of the variables that seem to be at play here. I mention the yeast because in these long-term cold fermented doughs the yeast amount is usually very low. This means in the beginning the the ratio of substrate to viable yeast cell is quite high. This gives the yeast more time to actively grow, albeit slower at cooler temperatures to produce the compounds and byproducts we all enjoy.

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #187 on: January 08, 2012, 02:08:40 AM »
Not to detract from the discussion, but what about the yeast? In a bulk ferment you get a coarse distribution of yeast cells which are probably localized. If you reball this, you are essentially disrupting the yeast colonies and spurring further yeast growth by their displacement with new "undigested" carbon sources. From a biological standpoint, yeast colonies will revert to a log phase growth if they are inundated with carbon sources and NOT around a lot of other yeast cells which are in stationary phase. Essentially you are increasing their distribution in the dough on a finer scale by reballing. The yeast are not in solution, but rather anchored in the dough.

Questions:
Do you see a lot of yeast activity in the dough when it sits for the 3 hours prior to baking? What about on the longer fermented doughs?

Had you NOT reballed the dough, would you get the same yeast activity during this 3 hour period?


Dan
Now I see why you are DNA Dan. Here is what I observe.....a reballed dough, or one that is balled after bulk fermentation and left to warm up has a lot bubble activity in the dough.....where the dough which was balled after mixing, refrigerated, and then taken out to warm up doesn't.  That's what i observe, you can give me the science.

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #188 on: January 08, 2012, 02:17:20 AM »
John,

Thank you very much for your explanation of your dough handling methods. My experience with handling cold fermenting doughs prior to using to make pizza is exactly as Chau described in Reply 170 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16761.msg166121.html#msg166121. As a result, I almost never re-ball/re-knead/re-work any cold fermented dough ball I make, especially where in my case I tend to use rather low formula hydrations and small amounts of yeast. Where I have done re-kneading is for long room-temperature fermented doughs where the gluten was attacked by protease enzymes and water was released from its bond, along with the effects of alcohol and acids, producing a wet dough that seemed to have a higher hydration value than its nominal formula hydration. In such cases, there really was no other option but to re-ball. I think I am also like Chau in how I approach things because I want to know everthing about a dough, from the dough formulation (including the types and amounts of all ingredients) to the dough preparation and dough management (including mixing methods, autolyse or no autolyse, temperatures and mode and duration of fermentation) to the bake protocol. Until then, I don't think I am ready to analyze the dough to either diagnose a problem or to adapt it to meet my particular needs and timetable. Having all the facts also makes it easier for me to predict what might happen at different stages. As I read Chau's posts on this topic, I found myself nodding in complete agreement.

To give you a simple example, I took the liberty of calculating the "effective" hydration of the dough formulation you posted at Reply 162 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16761.msg166097.html#msg166097. That value takes into the account the nominal formula hydration and the "wetting" effect of the oil. That value is 64%. I also calculated the total water content of your dough that takes into account the formula hydration and the moisture content of the flour (using 14%). The total water content of your dough is 45%. For the past few months, the only doughs I have made is Mellow Mushroom clone doughs. Corresponding effective hydration values and water percentage values have been about 56% and 40%, respectively. Those doughs are inherently on the elastic side so I would never do any aggressive kneading before using them. I do not think the doughs would recover or else it would take a good part of the day at room temperature to do so, and with unpredictable results. In your case, the dough balls should be reasonably soft and easy to handle, and knowing your numbers tells me that some form of re-working of the dough is definitely doable.

Dan (DNA Dan) also makes some very good points. November has also discussed the idea of redistribution of yeast away from waste products (e.g., at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4443.msg39724.html#msg39724). Also, Marco (pizzanapoletana) insisted that a two-stage bulk/balling sequence was absolutely necessary (for Neapolitan style doughs fermented at room temperature) but without saying exactly why. There is some interesting reading on these topics starting at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7022.msg60428/topicseen.html#msg60428. However, in your case, John, you are not doing any aggressive re-working of your dough balls. There may be some gentle rearrangement of the gluten matrix near the outer edges of your dough balls and some redistribution of the yeast to new fermentation sites and maybe you end up with a more taut and smoother outer skin for the dough balls that has some therapeutic effect on the final outcome, but I don't think that the usual explanations for a more aggressive re-working of the dough balls apply in your case. So, it will be interesting to see how your remaining dough balls perform, especially after getting so many possible explanations as to what is happening in your case :-D. You might find yourself handling the later dough balls too gently--like you have a grenade in your hand or you are de-fusing a time bomb :-D.

Peter

Peter
Thank you for your thoughts and for pointing me to more reading on the subject.  As I have said a million times...I'm just an observer and an experimenter, so I welcome all the inputs I can get to explain things to me.  Having said that, I got to thinking about Brian Spangler's recipe, and went back and read his dough process.  So, he's using a poolish, then he mixes his dough, then he stretch and folds 4 times....but the dough is balled 3 hours prior to opening...and I know balling is but one factor, but still the noted Spangler pizza is balled only 3 hours prior to baking....is it significant...don't know...just sayin, it gets me thinking.
JOhn

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #189 on: January 08, 2012, 02:29:30 AM »


Long Bulk/Sort Ball
I found making dough balls from cold refrigerated dough to be a little difficult. I tried to handle the dough as little as possible and after splitting the bulk, tried to lightly fold under the edges, but it took a lot of effort to pinch the dough closed. I also found this dough more difficult to sheet as it was not as relaxed as the long fermented balls. You can see that I did not get a very round pizza. Also, as soon as I started to sheet the dough it was producing gas bubbles like crazy. The pie cooked in about 4 minutes, 20 seconds, had nice flavor and was very tender.

Short Bulk/Long Ball
This is my usual way of making pizza so there were no surprises. It sheeted very easily and baked in about the same amount of time. It was also a very good tasting pie and very tender. Both my wife and I agreed that this was the better of the two but the difference was hardly noticeab


Danny
Thanks for giving it a shot....obviously your results are different then mine, that's the way it goes I guess.

Here is the second dough in this exercise.  The pizza below was made from a dough which was refrigerated 95 hours, taken out, balled and left to sit out 2.5 hours prior to bake.  A reminder, this is my Peter challenge to show results using an oven not hotter than 500 degrees.  I cheated a bit as the average temp of the quarry stones was 510 degrees.  You can see, the pizza got great color, good oven spring, absolutely excellent bottom...baked in 6.5 minutes.  This one is crunchelicious, and tender, as tender as any pizza baked at 580 or higher.   Why????...I don't have a clue!

John


Offline DannyG

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #190 on: January 08, 2012, 10:09:38 AM »
This one is crunchelicious, and tender, as tender as any pizza baked at 580 or higher.   Why????...I don't have a clue!

You may be on to something here John. I have always thought that the higher the temperature the better. You are getting great results at these lower temperatures. Something else to try.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #191 on: January 08, 2012, 01:24:06 PM »
I believe another reason some restaurant operators use bulk fermentation is simply because they don't have enough space to keep 2 or 3 days (or more) of dough in balls. Bulk is much more efficient from a storage perspective.

Craig
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #192 on: January 08, 2012, 02:10:19 PM »
I believe another reason some restaurant operators use bulk fermentation is simply because they don't have enough space to keep 2 or 3 days (or more) of dough in balls. Bulk is much more efficient from a storage perspective.

Craig

That is what I found when I researched this matter before, as I so noted at Reply 27 in the related thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16618.msg162894.html#msg162894. But there are very few people who do it for a cold fermented dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 02:12:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #193 on: January 09, 2012, 12:19:41 AM »
This one was in the fridge 118 hours, taken out and balled, left to sit out for 2.5 hours.  This time the oven temperature was averaging about 490 degrees.  I have to admit, I was afraid that baking this pizzas at this cool a temp would prove to make the pies more chewy and soft.  Not so, this is tender and crunchy, and delicious.
John

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #194 on: January 09, 2012, 07:06:00 PM »
I mixed a 5 dough ball batch of a regular Lehmann dough today at market in the Hobart mixer.  I wanted to see if I left at least two of the dough balls not balled and then balled them tomorrow, if any differences can be seen. I plan on balling at least two of the unballed doughs tomorrow morning sometime and letting one dough ball room temperature ferment at least a couple more hours than the other dough ball.  I donít know if any differences will be able to be seen in the texture, crispness or the final pizzas, or if any other differences can be noted.  I also want to bake the regular Lehmann dough balls (scaled and balled right after mixing) into pizzas after the reballed ones to see if any differences can be noted.

The formulation I used for the 5 dough ball batch of the regular Lehmann dough was a TF of 0.10, 61% hydration, IDY 0.40%, Mortonís salt 1.75 and olive oil at 1%.  I am making 16Ē pizzas for the experiments.  I used KASL as the flour in the formulation.

I know this is only a one day cold ferment, but I wanted to see what would happen with the final pizzas that were not scaled and balled right after the mix in comparison to the dough that were scaled and balled today.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #195 on: January 11, 2012, 01:27:22 AM »
I mixed a 5 dough ball batch of a regular Lehmann dough today at market in the Hobart mixer.  I wanted to see if I left at least two of the dough balls not balled and then balled them tomorrow, if any differences can be seen. I plan on balling at least two of the unballed doughs tomorrow morning sometime and letting one dough ball room temperature ferment at least a couple more hours than the other dough ball.  I donít know if any differences will be able to be seen in the texture, crispness or the final pizzas, or if any other differences can be noted.  I also want to bake the regular Lehmann dough balls (scaled and balled right after mixing) into pizzas after the reballed ones to see if any differences can be noted.

The formulation I used for the 5 dough ball batch of the regular Lehmann dough was a TF of 0.10, 61% hydration, IDY 0.40%, Mortonís salt 1.75 and olive oil at 1%.  I am making 16Ē pizzas for the experiments.  I used KASL as the flour in the formulation.

I know this is only a one day cold ferment, but I wanted to see what would happen with the final pizzas that were not scaled and balled right after the mix in comparison to the dough that were scaled and balled today.

Norma

Norma
I trust that even with just a one day ferment you will notice a difference in your doughs..I know I have.  I'll be interested in your results.

This is the last dough that I baked from my experimental batch for Peter..  This pizza was made from a dough which was in the fridge 166.5 hours.  The dough had a huge bubble and had brown specks all over it.  I usually see these specks when I use high gluten flour.  The dough was very easily balled, and left to set out 2.75 hours prior to baking.  My home oven averaged about 510 degrees.  The dough weighed 10 ounces and was stretched to about 11.5 inches and the pizza cooked in just under 7 minutes.  Also notice, the stretched dough is loaded with bubbles, similar to the pic Norma posted earlier in this thread.  As with the other doughs in this exercise, the pizza was crispy, had body, and was delicious.  This experiment surpised me....I knew the dough would act as I said, but I was concerned at using an oven around 500 degrees.  But again, I ate excellent pizza this week.

John
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 01:29:44 AM by fazzari »

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #196 on: January 11, 2012, 09:04:54 AM »
John,

Your continuing experiments with a lower temperature oven are very intereting.  Excellent looking pizza!   :chef:  I bet the crust tasted great after the long ferment.   ;D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #197 on: January 11, 2012, 09:16:07 AM »
John or anyone else that might be interested,

I would not have made these posts, but since I posted I was trying the experiment on the 5 dough ball batch of trying balling after the dough fermented, and also balling right after the mix, I thought I need to make these posts. 

I sure donít know what I did wrong, but somehow I must have mixed something wrong when I mixed the 5 dough ball batch.  I thought back to what I could have done wrong, but canít remember anything I did wrong, but know I did something wrong, because even the pizzas made with the balling right after mixing where nothing like regular Lehmann doughs I made before.  When I was mixing the 5 dough ball batch my friend was at her market stand across from me house cleaning her stand.  We were talking the whole time I was weighing the ingredients for the regular Lehmann dough, so somehow I must have done something wrong in weighing the ingredients.  I really donít know, but could have weighed the amount of yeast wrong, but donít really know if that is what was wrong.  Whatever I did, it will remain a mystery to me what happened. 

All the dough balls from the 5 dough ball batch of regular Lehmann doughs (with both the ball after the mix and the balling of the dough after a day), opened differently than ever before.  They seemed to stretch out so easily and felt like a Lehmann dough, but somehow they seemed more slack than a regular Lehmann dough.  The dough balls didnít feel like a higher hydration, but were different somehow.  There didnít seem to be many fermentation bubbles in any of the dough balls, even the ones that were left at room temperature for 3 to 5 hrs.

Even the bakes of the 5 dough batch were different than any other regular Lehmann doughs I have made before.  The pizzas just didnít bake the same, even though I had the oven temperature at the same temperature.  Someone might not be able to tell from the pictures, but both Steve and I opened dough balls and saw the bakes, and we both concluded they were nothing like a regular Lehmann dough.  Steve and I both have made regular Lehmann doughs before, so we both couldnít figure out what I did wrong. 

First picture of a Lehmann dough using the ball right after the mix.

Sorry, I fouled-up this experiment.  :-[

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #198 on: January 11, 2012, 09:17:53 AM »
6 pictures of pizza from balling the next day and letting the dough ball sit out at room temperature for 3 hrs.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #199 on: January 11, 2012, 09:18:51 AM »
Norma
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