Author Topic: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough  (Read 25671 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2011, 05:30:25 PM »
Norma,

I believe that you are better prepared today to repeat your prior test and thought to say so in my last post but I did not want to steer this thread in a new direction. However, I do think that you might be able to repeat what John has done with, say, five dough balls, although I don't recall seeing the sizes of pizzas that John has been making (I know you like thicker crusts for your NY style). But the dough formulation that John posted is really a version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, using a high-gluten flour, some sugar (which Tom recommends for long fermentations), and with an "effective" hydration of 61% when the 3% oil is taken into account.

In your case, where the dough has to be made entirely at market because of the market's rules, you might have to adjust the amount of yeast and add it late in the process if you are to make the dough one day at market and use it about a week later, also at market. In effect, you would be adapting the dough formulation that John posted to a longer window of usability by using some of the methods I described in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. There is also no reason that I can see why you can't take the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that was adapted for use with a preferment and adapt it to take advantage of John's methods, especially the reballing. What I don't know is when you would be able to do the reballing after the bulk ferment. You would have to do that at some time where you are permitted to have access to the market. I also don't know if the end results would be better than what you are now getting at market with the preferment Lehmann NY style dough formulation. But, if a test along the lines discussed by John is doable, a few dough balls should give you the answer.

Peter

Peter,

I donít want to take this thread off-topic either, but since John and you have posted about bulk fermenting or a longer cold ferment with or without reballing, (maybe giving me better results at market) after Christmas I will try an experiment out with 5 dough balls.  I think when I did the experiment back at Rely 241 on your thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg85495.html#msg85495 I donít think I really understood enough about dough to be able to know how to change the results I was getting.  Looking back to what I know now, I probably would have reballed those dough balls, added less yeast, or used a lower water temperature. 

I will reread over your thread again at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html because I have forgotten a lot of what is in that thread.  I am not sure if I will go for a 8 day cold fermented dough again, but maybe a 5 day cold fermented dough with or without a reball on a Monday.  I could also try a bulk ferment like John is experimenting with and reball the dough on a Monday, but wouldnít know when to make the dough to bulk ferment.  When I am ready I will start a new thread so I wonít mess-up Johnís thread.

At least John and you have given me some ideas to experiment with.

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2011, 05:48:07 PM »
I understood that Mike....can you explain to me what makes it a better finished crust..can you give me a description of what it feels like, looks like etc.
Thank you
John

John,

A crust, especially the rim, that has an almost thin, egg-shell like exterior, a fluffy, airy and light interior and with the center crust of having a slightly crunchy bottom with a moist and light layer before it all melts into one goodness the minute you take a bite.

Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2011, 07:50:40 PM »
I am not sure if I will go for a 8 day cold fermented dough again, but maybe a 5 day cold fermented dough with or without a reball on a Monday.  I could also try a bulk ferment like John is experimenting with and reball the dough on a Monday, but wouldnít know when to make the dough to bulk ferment.  When I am ready I will start a new thread so I wonít mess-up Johnís thread.

Norma,

My recollection is that you are permitted access to the market on Monday through Friday, but not on Saturday or Sunday. If that is correct, you could start the bulk dough on Thursday, ferment it until Monday (4 days) and do the division and scaling on Monday also. Then use the dough balls on Tuesday (5 days).

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2011, 10:09:51 PM »
Norma,

My recollection is that you are permitted access to the market on Monday through Friday, but not on Saturday or Sunday. If that is correct, you could start the bulk dough on Thursday, ferment it until Monday (4 days) and do the division and scaling on Monday also. Then use the dough balls on Tuesday (5 days).

Peter

Peter,

You are correct that I am only permitted access to market Monday through Friday, and not Saturday or Sunday.

I will mix a regular Lehmann dough (5 dough balls) on a Thursday to be bulk fermented until Monday, then do the division and scaling on Monday, then cold ferment until Tuesday.  I want to see if I can get anywhere near the results that John is getting. 

Do you have idea of how much yeast I should use when doing a bulk fermentation of 4 days, or should I just try to figure out what might work?  Do you think the amount of IDY (0.50) John is using would be too much?  I see John had a final dough temperature of 70 degrees F.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2011, 10:23:17 PM »
Do you have idea of how much yeast I should use when doing a bulk fermentation of 4 days, or should I just try to figure out what might work?  Do you think the amount of IDY (0.50) John is using would be too much?  I see John had a final dough temperature of 70 degrees F.

Norma,

Is your refrigerator case at market where you hold the dough balls more like a home refrigerator than a commercial cooler in terms of its operating temperature range?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2011, 10:28:59 PM »
Norma,

Is your refrigerator case at market where you hold the dough balls more like a home refrigerator than a commercial cooler in terms of its operating temperature range?

Peter

Peter,

The deli case where I would be bulk fermenting the dough is now at 38 degrees F.  Since it is colder in our area and at market during the week when there isnít market, the temperature stays constant because no one is opening and shutting the deli doors.  At market most of the time lately is it about 52 degrees now where I would be mixing the dough. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2011, 10:39:30 PM »
Norma,

I was thinking of a combination of about 0.25% IDY and a finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees F. However, since I do not do bulk cold fermentations of dough, maybe John has an opinion as to the amount of IDY that you might use, given that he has made doughs with several days of cold fermentation in bulk. At the values mentioned above, I don't see a risk of overfermentation. And any weakness in the dough structure can be overcome during the reballing.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2011, 10:48:57 PM »
Norma,

I was thinking of a combination of about 0.25% IDY and a finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees F. However, since I do not do bulk cold fermentations of dough, maybe John has an opinion as to the amount of IDY that you might use, given that he has made doughs with several days of cold fermentation in bulk. At the values mentioned above, I don't see a risk of overfermentation. And any weakness in the dough structure can be overcome during the reballing.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your suggestion to use 0.25% IDY and to get a finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees F.  I will wait and see what Johnís opinion or suggestions are.  For the first experiment I will use the ADM Gigantic high-gluten flour like John did. 

I understand that any weakness in the dough structure can be overcome during the reballing.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2011, 02:37:33 AM »
Peter and Norma
I don't have an opinion about what percentage of yeast to use... I will tell you what I did, and also tell you there were no problems.  I used .5% yeast, and i mixed up 520 ounces of dough.  The whole dough piece was bulk fermented in a 5 gallon tub.  I had a finished dough temp of 70 degrees, because I had to start somewhere, and knew this was a pretty big piece of dough.  Your batch will be much smaller, and I just don't see you having a problem.  I also believe Peter is correct in saying, that even if you do overferment the balling will take care of that.  As for my experiment, I still had a piece of dough in the walkin today.  (5 days old)....I took a 36 ounce piece, buttered up a 16 inch deep dish pan, let the dough warm up and rise in the pan, and we had an excellent snack after our dinner rush tonite.

Best wishes to you both
John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2011, 02:39:12 AM »
John,

A crust, especially the rim, that has an almost thin, egg-shell like exterior, a fluffy, airy and light interior and with the center crust of having a slightly crunchy bottom with a moist and light layer before it all melts into one goodness the minute you take a bite.


I think you nailed that Mike....would I be correct in saying you haven't achieved that texture doing it your new way??

John


Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2011, 06:58:28 AM »
Peter and Norma
I don't have an opinion about what percentage of yeast to use... I will tell you what I did, and also tell you there were no problems.  I used .5% yeast, and i mixed up 520 ounces of dough.  The whole dough piece was bulk fermented in a 5 gallon tub.  I had a finished dough temp of 70 degrees, because I had to start somewhere, and knew this was a pretty big piece of dough.  Your batch will be much smaller, and I just don't see you having a problem.  I also believe Peter is correct in saying, that even if you do overferment the balling will take care of that.  As for my experiment, I still had a piece of dough in the walkin today.  (5 days old)....I took a 36 ounce piece, buttered up a 16 inch deep dish pan, let the dough warm up and rise in the pan, and we had an excellent snack after our dinner rush tonite.

Best wishes to you both
John

John,

Thanks for telling me you donít have an opinion about what percentage of yeast to use.  I wonder if I should use a higher percentage of IDY than 0.25% in my 5 dough ball batch to get the fermentation process going better in a bulk ferment since you made more dough and used 0.50%.  I would think your dough would have fermented better because you mixed more dough and used a higher percentage of IDY.  I have different Cambro containers I can bulk ferment the dough in.  How did your dough look after bulk fermenting, before the division, and scaling?  Was the bulk fermented dough really bubbly and soft? 

I am excited to try your experiment.  If I have time this coming Thursday I will start a batch.  If not, then it will be the next week.

I bet the 5 day old piece of dough you used in a deep dish pan to bake a pizza sure tasted good.   ;D

Thanks for the best wishes!  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2011, 11:11:48 AM »
Norma,

You should just use your best professional judgment. You know your equipment and your operating environment better than anyone, and you have made five dough ball batches many times before, so you are likely to know better than John or I what you should do under the circumstances. But, whether you go with 0.25% IDY or 0.50% IDY, I don't think that you will hurt anything. If you would rather risk that the dough overferment rather than underferment, knowing that you have reballing as a safeguard, then go with the larger amount of yeast.

Peter

Offline CRHammond

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2011, 11:30:16 AM »
Is it bulk fermentation or the balling after some extended period that makes the most difference?  I don't see how a piece of dough can tell if it is in a ball or a bucket (except rate of temperature change).  An experiment I would like to try over the holidays will be to scale and ball straight out of the mixer, then re-ball 1/2 of the balls about 12 hours later, baking 12 hours after that.  I will try an abbreviated version today - re-balling 6 hours before the bake.

Reif

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2011, 11:37:19 AM »
John,

Thanks for telling me you donít have an opinion about what percentage of yeast to use.  I wonder if I should use a higher percentage of IDY than 0.25% in my 5 dough ball batch to get the fermentation process going better in a bulk ferment since you made more dough and used 0.50%.  I would think your dough would have fermented better because you mixed more dough and used a higher percentage of IDY.  I have different Cambro containers I can bulk ferment the dough in.  How did your dough look after bulk fermenting, before the division, and scaling?  Was the bulk fermented dough really bubbly and soft?  

I am excited to try your experiment.  If I have time this coming Thursday I will start a batch.  If not, then it will be the next week.

I bet the 5 day old piece of dough you used in a deep dish pan to bake a pizza sure tasted good.   ;D

Thanks for the best wishes!  :)


Norma


Norma
The bulk fermented dough was not bubbly at all...it had grown quite a bit, and was loaded with holes.  The interesting part is that when you slice a hunk out of this soft mass, and scale it, it is very easy to ball up.  Also, I agree with Peter regarding the usage of yeast...with such a small amount of dough, it should be insignificant.

Now, I'm going to make a statement and I hope Peter and anyone else will comment.  Although I am still investigating this, here is what I think.....bulk fermentation in and of itself is not the reason we can create such a marvelously textured dough.  The usage of bulk fermentation simply delays the balling process, letting one manipulate a fermented dough.  Also, the usage of bulk fermentation, allows one to ball a very nice soft dough, whereas a reball is much harder to accomplish unless one uses a very highly hydrated dough.  I was thinking about this last night, and so if I'm correct, shouldn't you be able to mix a dough, scale it, and refrigerate it without balling it?  Anyway, when I got home last night, I mixed up a batch of dough (enough for 2 13 ounce doughs), I scaled and balled one dough like we all normally do, and the other I simply put in a container to refrigerate.  After 12 hours I will ball the one dough mass, and refrigerate to be used tonight.  In my mind, this has to be correct..we'll see.

John
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 11:38:52 AM by fazzari »

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2011, 11:40:27 AM »
Is it bulk fermentation or the balling after some extended period that makes the most difference?  I don't see how a piece of dough can tell if it is in a ball or a bucket (except rate of temperature change).  An experiment I would like to try over the holidays will be to scale and ball straight out of the mixer, then re-ball 1/2 of the balls about 12 hours later, baking 12 hours after that.  I will try an abbreviated version today - re-balling 6 hours before the bake.

Reif

Woa, you beat me to it....I think you and I are on the same wavelink

john

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2011, 11:50:34 AM »
Is it bulk fermentation or the balling after some extended period that makes the most difference? 
Reif

Reif, it's the act of reballing after a period of bulk fermentation that makes the difference.  This is b/c the longer dough sits the softer it gets as the enzymes break down the gluten matrix.  Reballing rebuilds the strength in the dough and gives a better crumb.  But this depends on several factors though.  Getting a better crumb depends on not reballing too much, and also depends on not using a too low hydration with a too strong flour.   

John, as an interesting point and side experimentation, I am willing to wager $ that if you were to make 2 batches, ball batch A straight from the mixer, ball batch B 12-24 hours later, AND reball a few dough balls gently from batch A at the time you ball batch B, that you will get a nearly identical result. 

Hope that wasn't too confusing.  In other words, keep your routine now, but just reball a few of the balls (after 12-24h of CF) that were balled straight from the mixer.   Again, per your other thread, it's not specifically in the time frame per se.  It has more to do with the building and rebuilding of gluten.  The balance of dough strength.  B/c of your year long experimentation, you have built up the necessary feel for the dough.  You know just the right amount of balling the dough to get your desire results.

Here is another experiment to do that will shed more light on this topic.  Make a batch of dough and bulk ferment cold.  After 12 hours divide and ball all the dough as you normally would.  To a few or half of the dough balls, do twice the number of folds during the balling phase.  Or ball it really tight.  Ball it until you can't ball it anymore or until you see see the outter skin breaking.   Now allow the dough to rest another 12 hours or whatever your usual routine.  Bake both up and post the results.   Again, per my other post, we can definitely overball the dough as well.  Per my experiments, great texture depends on balancing many factors: proper dough strength relative to hydration and flour type and proper bake time.

Chau
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 08:17:25 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2011, 01:26:08 PM »
Norma,

You should just use your best professional judgment. You know your equipment and your operating environment better than anyone, and you have made five dough ball batches many times before, so you are likely to know better than John or I what you should do under the circumstances. But, whether you go with 0.25% IDY or 0.50% IDY, I don't think that you will hurt anything. If you would rather risk that the dough overferment rather than underferment, knowing that you have reballing as a safeguard, then go with the larger amount of yeast.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts about the IDY amounts.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2011, 01:34:21 PM »
John,

Thanks for telling me the bulk fermented dough was not bubbly at all, but had grown and was loaded with holes.  Thanks also for saying you agree with Peter about the IDY amounts.

You and Chau are probably right that bulk fermentation might now in itself be the reason for the great textured dough.  I have seen dough balls that looked like they might be over fermented and then did a reball and the pizzas that turned out from them were also very good in texture and taste.  Some of them werenít high hydration doughs either. 

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2011, 02:08:54 PM »
John would you mind detailing your mixing method and regimen.  I'd like to take a closer look at your methods.

Chau
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 10:19:51 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Essen1

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2011, 02:50:21 PM »
I think you nailed that Mike....would I be correct in saying you haven't achieved that texture doing it your new way??

John

Yes, you would. If I ever achieve that 'dream' crust I can die a happy man.  :)

Seriously though, I have yet to figure out what the secret to achieving such crust is. Is it the flour, the hydration, the oven, the baking surface...amongst a gazillion other possible factors?!
Mike

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