Author Topic: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough  (Read 25566 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2011, 06:47:12 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts about the IDY amounts.

Norma,

Out of curiosity, I decided to see if the method described by member November at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572 might work in your case where you would hold your bulk dough in your refrigerator case at market at a temperature of 38 degrees F (3.333 degrees C) for 5 days, or 5 x 24 hrs/day = 120 hours. The division and scaling and balling would take place on Day 4, whereupon the dough balls would go back into the refrigerator case for the final day.

For purposes of using November's method, for the Reference Rate I used a case where I fermented a dough at room temperature that doubled in about 18 hours. This is the same Reference Rate that I used when I came up with the dough formulation for Andre. The Predicted Rate in your case would simply be holding the dough/dough balls in your refrigerated case at market as described above. The adjusted value of IDY that I got from my calculations was 0.135% IDY. I then redid the exercise but where I subtracted a half hour from the total hours, on the assumption that you wouldn't need more than a half hour to do the division, scaling and balling. On that basis, the IDY did not change much. It went from 0.135% IDY to 0.136% IDY. Not worth worrying about.

You might think that the above numbers are on the low side. However, if you look at the Papa John's clone dough formulation that I originally posted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, you will see that I used 0.14% IDY. That was for a dough that was intended to cold ferment for 5-8 days. I used the dough on Day 5 but it could have lasted longer had I chosen to extend the fermentation time.

I have no idea as to whether the above amount of IDY would work for your application. I am not suggesting that you change your numbers on the yeast usage. However, it will be interesting to see how your dough performs. I believe that November's method should work for a bulk dough application but maybe it was not intended for something other than a regular dough ball.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2011, 07:37:10 PM »
Norma,

Out of curiosity, I decided to see if the method described by member November at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572 might work in your case where you would hold your bulk dough in your refrigerator case at market at a temperature of 38 degrees F (3.333 degrees C) for 5 days, or 5 x 24 hrs/day = 120 hours. The division and scaling and balling would take place on Day 4, whereupon the dough balls would go back into the refrigerator case for the final day.

For purposes of using November's method, for the Reference Rate I used a case where I fermented a dough at room temperature that doubled in about 18 hours. This is the same Reference Rate that I used when I came up with the dough formulation for Andre. The Predicted Rate in your case would simply be holding the dough/dough balls in your refrigerated case at market as described above. The adjusted value of IDY that I got from my calculations was 0.135% IDY. I then redid the exercise but where I subtracted a half hour from the total hours, on the assumption that you wouldn't need more than a half hour to do the division, scaling and balling. On that basis, the IDY did not change much. It went from 0.135% IDY to 0.136% IDY. Not worth worrying about.

You might think that the above numbers are on the low side. However, if you look at the Papa John's clone dough formulation that I originally posted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, you will see that I used 0.14% IDY. That was for a dough that was intended to cold ferment for 5-8 days. I used the dough on Day 5 but it could have lasted longer had I chosen to extend the fermentation time.

I have no idea as to whether the above amount of IDY would work for your application. I am not suggesting that you change your numbers on the yeast usage. However, it will be interesting to see how your dough performs. I believe that November's method should work for a bulk dough application but maybe it was not intended for something other than a regular dough ball.

Peter

Peter,

Your curiosity usually always leads you somewhere that is interesting.   :)

I remember when you used Novemberís Reference Rate 1 when you came up with the dough formulation for Andre. 

I did think you numbers were on the low side until I looked at the Papa Johnís formulation that you originally posted in your link.  If I were to use the same method you used for your Papa Johnís formulation would you suggest that I also use your method of sprinkling the IDY over the dough mass in the mixer bowl like you did after the dough was fairly mixed?  I will try the lower amount of IDY in the first experiment to see what happens.  If the IDY needs to be adjusted, the amount of IDY can always go up. 

Novembers usually knows what he is figuring out, but it is always over my head.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2011, 08:15:30 PM »
Norma,

I don't recall offhand how much the Papa John's clone dough expanded so I am reluctant to tell you to go with the percent of IDY that I mentioned. And I don't know how the small amount of yeast will work in your situation with a bulk dough. That is what experiments are for. I would rather err on the side of overfermentation than underfermentation, so knowing little else, I think I would be inclined to use more yeast than less. If the dough ferments too fast, then the next time, if there is a next time, you can lower the amount of yeast. But you have to start somewhere. For now, I would not add the yeast late in the process, especially this time of year where the cold weather is upon us.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 08:17:38 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2011, 09:50:46 PM »
Norma,

I don't recall offhand how much the Papa John's clone dough expanded so I am reluctant to tell you to go with the percent of IDY that I mentioned. And I don't know how the small amount of yeast will work in your situation with a bulk dough. That is what experiments are for. I would rather err on the side of overfermentation than underfermentation, so knowing little else, I think I would be inclined to use more yeast than less. If the dough ferments too fast, then the next time, if there is a next time, you can lower the amount of yeast. But you have to start somewhere. For now, I would not add the yeast late in the process, especially this time of year where the cold weather is upon us.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me your donít recall offhand how much the Papa Johnís clone dough expanded and you would rather err on the side of overfermentation rather than under fermentation.  I am sure there will be more than one experiment, so I will take your advice.  Thanks for you thoughts also on not adding the yeast late in the process.  Market can be very cold this time of year and most times I have to turn on my little heater when I am mixing dough and working at market on off market days.  At market most of the time on off market days, they just keep enough heat in there so things donít freeze.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2011, 02:11:21 AM »
I wanted to add this experiment right now before I go to bed, and I'll finish up all the other paper work tomorrow.  I mixed up a batch of dough using the recipe at the beginning of this thread.  I made enough dough to form two 13 ounce doughs.  I scaled the doughs, balling one, and refrigerating...and simply placing the other piece of dough into a container to refrigerate.
After 12 hours, I balled the raw piece of dough and placed it back in the fridge.  I checked both doughs at the 15 hour mark, and they were just about the same size.  At the 20 hour mark, the the dough that I balled later was a little larger than the other one. (Don't know if the size comparison matters, but I found it abit interesting.  I took both doughs out at about the 21 hour mark to warm up a couple hours.  I then stretched them out and made pizza.  I also note that the most recently balled dough was stronger and took a little more energy to stretch, but it was still fairly simple.
The first pizza was made from the dough balled after mix time.  It was delicious, but it was soft, a bit chewy, very typical of all pizzas I've made this way.
Now, the second pizza was an all star...it was delicious, had that real thin crisp crust, was super tender, and again it was like biting into a cloud.  More later, 5 am comes early...need sleep

John

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2011, 06:46:14 AM »
I wanted to add this experiment right now before I go to bed, and I'll finish up all the other paper work tomorrow.  I mixed up a batch of dough using the recipe at the beginning of this thread.  I made enough dough to form two 13 ounce doughs.  I scaled the doughs, balling one, and refrigerating...and simply placing the other piece of dough into a container to refrigerate.
After 12 hours, I balled the raw piece of dough and placed it back in the fridge.  I checked both doughs at the 15 hour mark, and they were just about the same size.  At the 20 hour mark, the the dough that I balled later was a little larger than the other one. (Don't know if the size comparison matters, but I found it abit interesting.  I took both doughs out at about the 21 hour mark to warm up a couple hours.  I then stretched them out and made pizza.  I also note that the most recently balled dough was stronger and took a little more energy to stretch, but it was still fairly simple.
The first pizza was made from the dough balled after mix time.  It was delicious, but it was soft, a bit chewy, very typical of all pizzas I've made this way.
Now, the second pizza was an all star...it was delicious, had that real thin crisp crust, was super tender, and again it was like biting into a cloud.  More later, 5 am comes early...need sleep

John


John,

Your recent experiment and your second all star pizza is simply amazing!  :) Canít wait to hear more, but please do get some sleep.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2011, 10:52:00 PM »


John, as an interesting point and side experimentation, I am willing to wager $ that if you were to make 2 batches, ball batch A straight from the mixer, ball batch B 12-24 hours later, AND reball a few dough balls gently from batch A at the time you ball batch B, that you will get a nearly identical result. 



You are willing to wager $'s????  And you want to wager with me (the king of reballs?)???   Chau, I think you are exactly correct!!!...but, I still think that fermenting unballed dough is the way to go because it simplifies the balling process, when one decides it's time!!

Here is a link to my favorite dough at the current time...it's not a Reinhart recipe per se, but I have borrowed his mixing process, along with the practice of reballing.  I have also changed it up abit in that I take 33% of the flour and make a poolish which sits 14 to 16 hours at room temperature.  I'm sure the addition of prefermented flour helps the dough ferment even faster (because of acids), and this gives me a decent pizza after 1 day, but really good ones after 2.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15563.0.html

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2011, 11:05:31 PM »
John,

Your recent experiment and your second all star pizza is simply amazing!  :) Canít wait to hear more, but please do get some sleep.

Norma


Norma
I think in the end, the best pizzas will be the ones which are baked in the correct amount of time after balling.  I'm also thinking that although the age of the dough will have an impact, the biggest impact comes from coordinating balling and baking times.  Please realize I'm saying this with just minor experimentation, though...and I'm not done yet.  I've got another experiment in mind that I'm starting tonight.  My experiment last night showed me, that I could use scaled, yet unballed dough and get excellent results...and if this is so, one doesn't have to mess with guessing yeast percentages, and water temperature because of making large quantities of dough..one can just make dough the way he/she  always has....just don't ball the scaled pieces.

as always, have fun!..
john

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2011, 06:40:03 AM »
Norma
I think in the end, the best pizzas will be the ones which are baked in the correct amount of time after balling.  I'm also thinking that although the age of the dough will have an impact, the biggest impact comes from coordinating balling and baking times.  Please realize I'm saying this with just minor experimentation, though...and I'm not done yet.  I've got another experiment in mind that I'm starting tonight.  My experiment last night showed me, that I could use scaled, yet unballed dough and get excellent results...and if this is so, one doesn't have to mess with guessing yeast percentages, and water temperature because of making large quantities of dough..one can just make dough the way he/she  always has....just don't ball the scaled pieces.

as always, have fun!..
john

John,

There is always something new to learn about dough.  So you think there needs to be the exactly correct amount of time after balling for the best pizza.  That is a interesting statement because to find that exact time is always hard to do, at least for me.  I guess the dough need to ferment just enough after the reball for all the conditions to be met.   Sounds a lot like the Reinhart doughs to me.

Will wait for your new experiment.  I also wanted to ask you what TF you have been using for your experiments in this thread.  I am not good at figuring out by the weight of the dough ball what the TF is.  I also wanted to ask you when I start my experiment like you have been doing with a bulk ferment if you want me to start another thread.  I have clogged up your thread enough already with my questions about me trying a bulk ferment.

Norma
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Offline DannyG

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2011, 09:17:33 AM »
I find this to be a very interesting thread and thank you John for posting your test results. I am wondering however, how much the type of flour, dough formula, and/or mixing method would effect the results. For example, John says he makes a 14-16 hour poolish. Would the bulk fermentation results be the same if he bypassed this step? Obviously the only way to tell would be more testing. Instead of copying John's recipe it would be interesting to see someone repeat his test but with a different formula or mixing method and post the results.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2011, 09:56:19 AM »
I find this to be a very interesting thread and thank you John for posting your test results. I am wondering however, how much the type of flour, dough formula, and/or mixing method would effect the results. For example, John says he makes a 14-16 hour poolish. Would the bulk fermentation results be the same if he bypassed this step? Obviously the only way to tell would be more testing. Instead of copying John's recipe it would be interesting to see someone repeat his test but with a different formula or mixing method and post the results.

DannyG, I nominate you.  ;).  Danny, I think the reballing after bulk is a good technique that would likely benefit many different NY recipes, but I also think that part of John's success with it is his specific formula, method, baking, and skill level.  I can also see this method not working for some ppl, especially on the first try.

You are willing to wager $'s????  And you want to wager with me (the king of reballs?)???   Chau, I think you are exactly correct!!!...but, I still think that fermenting unballed dough is the way to go because it simplifies the balling process, when one decides it's time!!

Here is a link to my favorite dough at the current time...it's not a Reinhart recipe per se, but I have borrowed his mixing process, along with the practice of reballing.  I have also changed it up abit in that I take 33% of the flour and make a poolish which sits 14 to 16 hours at room temperature.  I'm sure the addition of prefermented flour helps the dough ferment even faster (because of acids), and this gives me a decent pizza after 1 day, but really good ones after 2.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15563.0.html

John


John thanks for the link, I'll check it out.  I agree, that bulk and ball would save time over balling, bulk, then reball.  I was just commenting about building strength in the dough.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 10:03:21 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Essen1

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2011, 11:33:50 PM »
John,

I gave your formula a spin and tried the 12 hr bulk and 12 hr balled fermentation.  It came out great, even though I increased the hydro by 2 percentage points because I used a steel plate and thought that a higher hydro may be better for a steel hearth.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg164008.html#msg164008

The second pie from the same batch received a 12 hr bulk and 36 hrs of balled fermentation. This one had a nicer crunch to it but was a tad more chewy than the first.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg164116.html#msg164116

Both pies were excellent in my book. Thanks for posting the formula, John.

Mike

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Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2011, 12:16:29 AM »
John,

There is always something new to learn about dough.  So you think there needs to be the exactly correct amount of time after balling for the best pizza.  That is a interesting statement because to find that exact time is always hard to do, at least for me.  I guess the dough need to ferment just enough after the reball for all the conditions to be met.   Sounds a lot like the Reinhart doughs to me.

Will wait for your new experiment.  I also wanted to ask you what TF you have been using for your experiments in this thread.  I am not good at figuring out by the weight of the dough ball what the TF is.  I also wanted to ask you when I start my experiment like you have been doing with a bulk ferment if you want me to start another thread.  I have clogged up your thread enough already with my questions about me trying a bulk ferment.

Norma


Norma
Unfortunately, the lessons we learn can only come in stages, because we have so little time to test, and because some of us (like me), cast such wide nets that we need even more experiments to nail things down.  It also occurs to me, that each of us has our own particular likes and dislikes...and even though we can show each other pictures and try with words to describe what we are experiencing...it still comes down to trying it for yourself sometimes.  From my last experiment, I know that most likely, baking a dough within 12 hours after balling will always give me a better pizza than the same aged dough which was balled after mixing.  In my next experiment, I will bake pizzas all baked within 8 to 12 hours of balling, but made in 3 successive days, and then maybe we can start closing that window of excellence a bit, to find that place we get the great pies from.

My doughs weigh 13 ounces apiece, and I stretch them to at least 12 inches and try for 13..

Please feel free to add to this thread Norma...

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2011, 12:19:06 AM »
John,

I gave your formula a spin and tried the 12 hr bulk and 12 hr balled fermentation.  It came out great, even though I increased the hydro by 2 percentage points because I used a steel plate and thought that a higher hydro may be better for a steel hearth.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg164008.html#msg164008

The second pie from the same batch received a 12 hr bulk and 36 hrs of balled fermentation. This one had a nicer crunch to it but was a tad more chewy than the first.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg164116.html#msg164116

Both pies were excellent in my book. Thanks for posting the formula, John.


Gosh Mike
Thank you for giving the process a try....it's nice to see results can be duplicated!!!  Nice looking pizzas!!

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2011, 12:27:41 AM »
I find this to be a very interesting thread and thank you John for posting your test results. I am wondering however, how much the type of flour, dough formula, and/or mixing method would effect the results. For example, John says he makes a 14-16 hour poolish. Would the bulk fermentation results be the same if he bypassed this step? Obviously the only way to tell would be more testing. Instead of copying John's recipe it would be interesting to see someone repeat his test but with a different formula or mixing method and post the results.
DannyG

Your inquiring mind is surely welcome here!!!  I've got to tell you though......the making of my dough with poolish is something I just started a short time ago.  The biggest changes are that i get a nice tender crust a little sooner than when not using poolish.  So, I'm gonna say that the "bulk fermentation" method changes most doughs in relative terms depending on what makes up the dough......so, its time for more experiments Danny, ....and you're the guy!!!

John

Offline Essen1

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2011, 01:49:40 AM »
Gosh Mike
Thank you for giving the process a try....it's nice to see results can be duplicated!!!  Nice looking pizzas!!

John

John,

Unfortunately I didn't know at what temp you baked your pies, or the bake time for that matter. The outcome might have been better, if not, at the very least, different. :)

I'd be happy to give the dough another go if you can provide me with hearth, bake time and temp info. It's a good dough and I really enjoyed it.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2011, 06:41:44 AM »
John,

Unfortunately I didn't know at what temp you baked your pies, or the bake time for that matter. The outcome might have been better, if not, at the very least, different. :)

I'd be happy to give the dough another go if you can provide me with hearth, bake time and temp info. It's a good dough and I really enjoyed it.



Mike,
Most of my pizzas are baked in the 550 to 580 range, and can bake in as little as 4  minutes and up to 6 1/2....it depends on the dough.....although I try to time bakes just for reference, my goal is never to bake them as fast as I can, it's to have the bottom and top be done at exactly the same time.  Having said that Mike, the recipe I used for this experiment (the one you used), is just a simple one I used for this demonstration....I wanted an example of what the bulk fermentation process would have on any dough, and I picked this one to find out....so, I think you are enjoying the fruits of the process, more than the recipe itself??? 

John

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2011, 07:36:49 AM »
Norma
Unfortunately, the lessons we learn can only come in stages, because we have so little time to test, and because some of us (like me), cast such wide nets that we need even more experiments to nail things down.  It also occurs to me, that each of us has our own particular likes and dislikes...and even though we can show each other pictures and try with words to describe what we are experiencing...it still comes down to trying it for yourself sometimes.  From my last experiment, I know that most likely, baking a dough within 12 hours after balling will always give me a better pizza than the same aged dough which was balled after mixing.  In my next experiment, I will bake pizzas all baked within 8 to 12 hours of balling, but made in 3 successive days, and then maybe we can start closing that window of excellence a bit, to find that place we get the great pies from.

My doughs weigh 13 ounces apiece, and I stretch them to at least 12 inches and try for 13..

Please feel free to add to this thread Norma...

John

John,

I agree, that lessons we learn only come in stages.  Each variable can change the outcome, at least for me.  I am sure each of us has their own likes and dislikes.  I also know pictures can only show so much, but someone has to personally taste the pizzas, how the dough behaves, and so much more to see if that is what we like.  Each of us has different equipment we use, different oven set-ups, different oven temps, and more too.  I would like to experiment more too, but I can only do so many experiments just like you and other members.

I know you will narrow down what goes into making the best pizza.  You also do.  Will be interested in your next experiment. 

Thanks for telling me about what TF you are using and thanks also for saying you donít mind if I add to this thread.

I wanted to let you know my friend Steve did an experiment using a bulk ferment since he saw your thread.  He used 0.25% IDY in the formula and cold bulk fermented for 18 hrs.  He told me after the 18 hrs. before division, scaling, and balling his bulk dough was very bubbly.  That makes me wonder more about what yeast amount I want to try for a cold bulk ferment for 4 days. I saw the pictures of his pizzas and they did look great, but they werenít cut because they were made for workers at the place his wife works.

Norma
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Offline DannyG

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2011, 09:11:53 AM »
......so, its time for more experiments Danny, ....and you're the guy!!!

I guess I set myself up for this. Unfortunately I only bake one 14" pie a week for me and my wife. (We use to do two 12" pies, at the same sitting, but the waistline was starting to get out of hand) Right now I've been wrestling with learning how to use an ischia starter but I will table that next week and try to repeat John's test Ė Reply #63. I'll be using AT flour and a slightly different formula so it will be interesting to see the results. Prior to the ischia I had been bulk fermenting at room temperature for 4-6 hours before balling and refrigerating for 48 hours. (Using 0.20 IDY)

John, I just want to verify - you don't ferment at room temperature at all, correct? You go straight into the refrigerator after mixing? Temperature is important here and I want to match yours... can you check the refrigerator temperature at the location you store the dough?

Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2011, 05:43:58 PM »
I mixed the 5 dough ball experiment today for the bulk cold ferment at market.  My final dough temperature was a little lower than I wanted, but think it will be okay.  I used 0.25 IDY in the formulation for the Lehmann dough after Steve told me how his dough bubbled.  I also upped the hydration to 62% because I usually like a Lehmann dough around that hydration.  I sure donít know if I made the right decision on the yeast amount for a 4 dough bulk cold ferment.  I did use ADM Gigantic flour like John did.  All depending on how this bulk ferment experiment goes, I might change over to KASL the next time, but wanted to use the same flour John used.  I also took the pH reading of the dough to be bulk fermented, but donít think that will make any difference. If anyone wants me to take the pH reading before I scale, divide, and ball on Monday, let me know.  The Cambro container was sprayed with Pam, so the dough doesnít stick.  This is also the formulation I used if anyone is interested.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

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