Author Topic: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough  (Read 32198 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2011, 06:58:28 AM »
Peter and Norma
I don't have an opinion about what percentage of yeast to use... I will tell you what I did, and also tell you there were no problems.  I used .5% yeast, and i mixed up 520 ounces of dough.  The whole dough piece was bulk fermented in a 5 gallon tub.  I had a finished dough temp of 70 degrees, because I had to start somewhere, and knew this was a pretty big piece of dough.  Your batch will be much smaller, and I just don't see you having a problem.  I also believe Peter is correct in saying, that even if you do overferment the balling will take care of that.  As for my experiment, I still had a piece of dough in the walkin today.  (5 days old)....I took a 36 ounce piece, buttered up a 16 inch deep dish pan, let the dough warm up and rise in the pan, and we had an excellent snack after our dinner rush tonite.

Best wishes to you both
John

John,

Thanks for telling me you donít have an opinion about what percentage of yeast to use.  I wonder if I should use a higher percentage of IDY than 0.25% in my 5 dough ball batch to get the fermentation process going better in a bulk ferment since you made more dough and used 0.50%.  I would think your dough would have fermented better because you mixed more dough and used a higher percentage of IDY.  I have different Cambro containers I can bulk ferment the dough in.  How did your dough look after bulk fermenting, before the division, and scaling?  Was the bulk fermented dough really bubbly and soft? 

I am excited to try your experiment.  If I have time this coming Thursday I will start a batch.  If not, then it will be the next week.

I bet the 5 day old piece of dough you used in a deep dish pan to bake a pizza sure tasted good.   ;D

Thanks for the best wishes!  :)

Norma


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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2011, 11:11:48 AM »
Norma,

You should just use your best professional judgment. You know your equipment and your operating environment better than anyone, and you have made five dough ball batches many times before, so you are likely to know better than John or I what you should do under the circumstances. But, whether you go with 0.25% IDY or 0.50% IDY, I don't think that you will hurt anything. If you would rather risk that the dough overferment rather than underferment, knowing that you have reballing as a safeguard, then go with the larger amount of yeast.

Peter

Offline CRHammond

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2011, 11:30:16 AM »
Is it bulk fermentation or the balling after some extended period that makes the most difference?  I don't see how a piece of dough can tell if it is in a ball or a bucket (except rate of temperature change).  An experiment I would like to try over the holidays will be to scale and ball straight out of the mixer, then re-ball 1/2 of the balls about 12 hours later, baking 12 hours after that.  I will try an abbreviated version today - re-balling 6 hours before the bake.

Reif

Online fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2011, 11:37:19 AM »
John,

Thanks for telling me you donít have an opinion about what percentage of yeast to use.  I wonder if I should use a higher percentage of IDY than 0.25% in my 5 dough ball batch to get the fermentation process going better in a bulk ferment since you made more dough and used 0.50%.  I would think your dough would have fermented better because you mixed more dough and used a higher percentage of IDY.  I have different Cambro containers I can bulk ferment the dough in.  How did your dough look after bulk fermenting, before the division, and scaling?  Was the bulk fermented dough really bubbly and soft?  

I am excited to try your experiment.  If I have time this coming Thursday I will start a batch.  If not, then it will be the next week.

I bet the 5 day old piece of dough you used in a deep dish pan to bake a pizza sure tasted good.   ;D

Thanks for the best wishes!  :)


Norma


Norma
The bulk fermented dough was not bubbly at all...it had grown quite a bit, and was loaded with holes.  The interesting part is that when you slice a hunk out of this soft mass, and scale it, it is very easy to ball up.  Also, I agree with Peter regarding the usage of yeast...with such a small amount of dough, it should be insignificant.

Now, I'm going to make a statement and I hope Peter and anyone else will comment.  Although I am still investigating this, here is what I think.....bulk fermentation in and of itself is not the reason we can create such a marvelously textured dough.  The usage of bulk fermentation simply delays the balling process, letting one manipulate a fermented dough.  Also, the usage of bulk fermentation, allows one to ball a very nice soft dough, whereas a reball is much harder to accomplish unless one uses a very highly hydrated dough.  I was thinking about this last night, and so if I'm correct, shouldn't you be able to mix a dough, scale it, and refrigerate it without balling it?  Anyway, when I got home last night, I mixed up a batch of dough (enough for 2 13 ounce doughs), I scaled and balled one dough like we all normally do, and the other I simply put in a container to refrigerate.  After 12 hours I will ball the one dough mass, and refrigerate to be used tonight.  In my mind, this has to be correct..we'll see.

John
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 11:38:52 AM by fazzari »

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2011, 11:40:27 AM »
Is it bulk fermentation or the balling after some extended period that makes the most difference?  I don't see how a piece of dough can tell if it is in a ball or a bucket (except rate of temperature change).  An experiment I would like to try over the holidays will be to scale and ball straight out of the mixer, then re-ball 1/2 of the balls about 12 hours later, baking 12 hours after that.  I will try an abbreviated version today - re-balling 6 hours before the bake.

Reif

Woa, you beat me to it....I think you and I are on the same wavelink

john

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2011, 11:50:34 AM »
Is it bulk fermentation or the balling after some extended period that makes the most difference? 
Reif

Reif, it's the act of reballing after a period of bulk fermentation that makes the difference.  This is b/c the longer dough sits the softer it gets as the enzymes break down the gluten matrix.  Reballing rebuilds the strength in the dough and gives a better crumb.  But this depends on several factors though.  Getting a better crumb depends on not reballing too much, and also depends on not using a too low hydration with a too strong flour.   

John, as an interesting point and side experimentation, I am willing to wager $ that if you were to make 2 batches, ball batch A straight from the mixer, ball batch B 12-24 hours later, AND reball a few dough balls gently from batch A at the time you ball batch B, that you will get a nearly identical result. 

Hope that wasn't too confusing.  In other words, keep your routine now, but just reball a few of the balls (after 12-24h of CF) that were balled straight from the mixer.   Again, per your other thread, it's not specifically in the time frame per se.  It has more to do with the building and rebuilding of gluten.  The balance of dough strength.  B/c of your year long experimentation, you have built up the necessary feel for the dough.  You know just the right amount of balling the dough to get your desire results.

Here is another experiment to do that will shed more light on this topic.  Make a batch of dough and bulk ferment cold.  After 12 hours divide and ball all the dough as you normally would.  To a few or half of the dough balls, do twice the number of folds during the balling phase.  Or ball it really tight.  Ball it until you can't ball it anymore or until you see see the outter skin breaking.   Now allow the dough to rest another 12 hours or whatever your usual routine.  Bake both up and post the results.   Again, per my other post, we can definitely overball the dough as well.  Per my experiments, great texture depends on balancing many factors: proper dough strength relative to hydration and flour type and proper bake time.

Chau
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 08:17:25 AM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2011, 01:26:08 PM »
Norma,

You should just use your best professional judgment. You know your equipment and your operating environment better than anyone, and you have made five dough ball batches many times before, so you are likely to know better than John or I what you should do under the circumstances. But, whether you go with 0.25% IDY or 0.50% IDY, I don't think that you will hurt anything. If you would rather risk that the dough overferment rather than underferment, knowing that you have reballing as a safeguard, then go with the larger amount of yeast.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts about the IDY amounts.

Norma

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2011, 01:34:21 PM »
John,

Thanks for telling me the bulk fermented dough was not bubbly at all, but had grown and was loaded with holes.  Thanks also for saying you agree with Peter about the IDY amounts.

You and Chau are probably right that bulk fermentation might now in itself be the reason for the great textured dough.  I have seen dough balls that looked like they might be over fermented and then did a reball and the pizzas that turned out from them were also very good in texture and taste.  Some of them werenít high hydration doughs either. 

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2011, 02:08:54 PM »
John would you mind detailing your mixing method and regimen.  I'd like to take a closer look at your methods.

Chau
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 10:19:51 AM by Jackie Tran »


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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2011, 02:50:21 PM »
I think you nailed that Mike....would I be correct in saying you haven't achieved that texture doing it your new way??

John

Yes, you would. If I ever achieve that 'dream' crust I can die a happy man.  :)

Seriously though, I have yet to figure out what the secret to achieving such crust is. Is it the flour, the hydration, the oven, the baking surface...amongst a gazillion other possible factors?!
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2011, 06:47:12 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts about the IDY amounts.

Norma,

Out of curiosity, I decided to see if the method described by member November at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572 might work in your case where you would hold your bulk dough in your refrigerator case at market at a temperature of 38 degrees F (3.333 degrees C) for 5 days, or 5 x 24 hrs/day = 120 hours. The division and scaling and balling would take place on Day 4, whereupon the dough balls would go back into the refrigerator case for the final day.

For purposes of using November's method, for the Reference Rate I used a case where I fermented a dough at room temperature that doubled in about 18 hours. This is the same Reference Rate that I used when I came up with the dough formulation for Andre. The Predicted Rate in your case would simply be holding the dough/dough balls in your refrigerated case at market as described above. The adjusted value of IDY that I got from my calculations was 0.135% IDY. I then redid the exercise but where I subtracted a half hour from the total hours, on the assumption that you wouldn't need more than a half hour to do the division, scaling and balling. On that basis, the IDY did not change much. It went from 0.135% IDY to 0.136% IDY. Not worth worrying about.

You might think that the above numbers are on the low side. However, if you look at the Papa John's clone dough formulation that I originally posted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, you will see that I used 0.14% IDY. That was for a dough that was intended to cold ferment for 5-8 days. I used the dough on Day 5 but it could have lasted longer had I chosen to extend the fermentation time.

I have no idea as to whether the above amount of IDY would work for your application. I am not suggesting that you change your numbers on the yeast usage. However, it will be interesting to see how your dough performs. I believe that November's method should work for a bulk dough application but maybe it was not intended for something other than a regular dough ball.

Peter

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2011, 07:37:10 PM »
Norma,

Out of curiosity, I decided to see if the method described by member November at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572 might work in your case where you would hold your bulk dough in your refrigerator case at market at a temperature of 38 degrees F (3.333 degrees C) for 5 days, or 5 x 24 hrs/day = 120 hours. The division and scaling and balling would take place on Day 4, whereupon the dough balls would go back into the refrigerator case for the final day.

For purposes of using November's method, for the Reference Rate I used a case where I fermented a dough at room temperature that doubled in about 18 hours. This is the same Reference Rate that I used when I came up with the dough formulation for Andre. The Predicted Rate in your case would simply be holding the dough/dough balls in your refrigerated case at market as described above. The adjusted value of IDY that I got from my calculations was 0.135% IDY. I then redid the exercise but where I subtracted a half hour from the total hours, on the assumption that you wouldn't need more than a half hour to do the division, scaling and balling. On that basis, the IDY did not change much. It went from 0.135% IDY to 0.136% IDY. Not worth worrying about.

You might think that the above numbers are on the low side. However, if you look at the Papa John's clone dough formulation that I originally posted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, you will see that I used 0.14% IDY. That was for a dough that was intended to cold ferment for 5-8 days. I used the dough on Day 5 but it could have lasted longer had I chosen to extend the fermentation time.

I have no idea as to whether the above amount of IDY would work for your application. I am not suggesting that you change your numbers on the yeast usage. However, it will be interesting to see how your dough performs. I believe that November's method should work for a bulk dough application but maybe it was not intended for something other than a regular dough ball.

Peter

Peter,

Your curiosity usually always leads you somewhere that is interesting.   :)

I remember when you used Novemberís Reference Rate 1 when you came up with the dough formulation for Andre. 

I did think you numbers were on the low side until I looked at the Papa Johnís formulation that you originally posted in your link.  If I were to use the same method you used for your Papa Johnís formulation would you suggest that I also use your method of sprinkling the IDY over the dough mass in the mixer bowl like you did after the dough was fairly mixed?  I will try the lower amount of IDY in the first experiment to see what happens.  If the IDY needs to be adjusted, the amount of IDY can always go up. 

Novembers usually knows what he is figuring out, but it is always over my head.

Norma

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2011, 08:15:30 PM »
Norma,

I don't recall offhand how much the Papa John's clone dough expanded so I am reluctant to tell you to go with the percent of IDY that I mentioned. And I don't know how the small amount of yeast will work in your situation with a bulk dough. That is what experiments are for. I would rather err on the side of overfermentation than underfermentation, so knowing little else, I think I would be inclined to use more yeast than less. If the dough ferments too fast, then the next time, if there is a next time, you can lower the amount of yeast. But you have to start somewhere. For now, I would not add the yeast late in the process, especially this time of year where the cold weather is upon us.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 08:17:38 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2011, 09:50:46 PM »
Norma,

I don't recall offhand how much the Papa John's clone dough expanded so I am reluctant to tell you to go with the percent of IDY that I mentioned. And I don't know how the small amount of yeast will work in your situation with a bulk dough. That is what experiments are for. I would rather err on the side of overfermentation than underfermentation, so knowing little else, I think I would be inclined to use more yeast than less. If the dough ferments too fast, then the next time, if there is a next time, you can lower the amount of yeast. But you have to start somewhere. For now, I would not add the yeast late in the process, especially this time of year where the cold weather is upon us.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me your donít recall offhand how much the Papa Johnís clone dough expanded and you would rather err on the side of overfermentation rather than under fermentation.  I am sure there will be more than one experiment, so I will take your advice.  Thanks for you thoughts also on not adding the yeast late in the process.  Market can be very cold this time of year and most times I have to turn on my little heater when I am mixing dough and working at market on off market days.  At market most of the time on off market days, they just keep enough heat in there so things donít freeze.

Norma

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2011, 02:11:21 AM »
I wanted to add this experiment right now before I go to bed, and I'll finish up all the other paper work tomorrow.  I mixed up a batch of dough using the recipe at the beginning of this thread.  I made enough dough to form two 13 ounce doughs.  I scaled the doughs, balling one, and refrigerating...and simply placing the other piece of dough into a container to refrigerate.
After 12 hours, I balled the raw piece of dough and placed it back in the fridge.  I checked both doughs at the 15 hour mark, and they were just about the same size.  At the 20 hour mark, the the dough that I balled later was a little larger than the other one. (Don't know if the size comparison matters, but I found it abit interesting.  I took both doughs out at about the 21 hour mark to warm up a couple hours.  I then stretched them out and made pizza.  I also note that the most recently balled dough was stronger and took a little more energy to stretch, but it was still fairly simple.
The first pizza was made from the dough balled after mix time.  It was delicious, but it was soft, a bit chewy, very typical of all pizzas I've made this way.
Now, the second pizza was an all star...it was delicious, had that real thin crisp crust, was super tender, and again it was like biting into a cloud.  More later, 5 am comes early...need sleep

John

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2011, 06:46:14 AM »
I wanted to add this experiment right now before I go to bed, and I'll finish up all the other paper work tomorrow.  I mixed up a batch of dough using the recipe at the beginning of this thread.  I made enough dough to form two 13 ounce doughs.  I scaled the doughs, balling one, and refrigerating...and simply placing the other piece of dough into a container to refrigerate.
After 12 hours, I balled the raw piece of dough and placed it back in the fridge.  I checked both doughs at the 15 hour mark, and they were just about the same size.  At the 20 hour mark, the the dough that I balled later was a little larger than the other one. (Don't know if the size comparison matters, but I found it abit interesting.  I took both doughs out at about the 21 hour mark to warm up a couple hours.  I then stretched them out and made pizza.  I also note that the most recently balled dough was stronger and took a little more energy to stretch, but it was still fairly simple.
The first pizza was made from the dough balled after mix time.  It was delicious, but it was soft, a bit chewy, very typical of all pizzas I've made this way.
Now, the second pizza was an all star...it was delicious, had that real thin crisp crust, was super tender, and again it was like biting into a cloud.  More later, 5 am comes early...need sleep

John


John,

Your recent experiment and your second all star pizza is simply amazing!  :) Canít wait to hear more, but please do get some sleep.

Norma

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2011, 10:52:00 PM »


John, as an interesting point and side experimentation, I am willing to wager $ that if you were to make 2 batches, ball batch A straight from the mixer, ball batch B 12-24 hours later, AND reball a few dough balls gently from batch A at the time you ball batch B, that you will get a nearly identical result. 



You are willing to wager $'s????  And you want to wager with me (the king of reballs?)???   Chau, I think you are exactly correct!!!...but, I still think that fermenting unballed dough is the way to go because it simplifies the balling process, when one decides it's time!!

Here is a link to my favorite dough at the current time...it's not a Reinhart recipe per se, but I have borrowed his mixing process, along with the practice of reballing.  I have also changed it up abit in that I take 33% of the flour and make a poolish which sits 14 to 16 hours at room temperature.  I'm sure the addition of prefermented flour helps the dough ferment even faster (because of acids), and this gives me a decent pizza after 1 day, but really good ones after 2.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15563.0.html

John


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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2011, 11:05:31 PM »
John,

Your recent experiment and your second all star pizza is simply amazing!  :) Canít wait to hear more, but please do get some sleep.

Norma


Norma
I think in the end, the best pizzas will be the ones which are baked in the correct amount of time after balling.  I'm also thinking that although the age of the dough will have an impact, the biggest impact comes from coordinating balling and baking times.  Please realize I'm saying this with just minor experimentation, though...and I'm not done yet.  I've got another experiment in mind that I'm starting tonight.  My experiment last night showed me, that I could use scaled, yet unballed dough and get excellent results...and if this is so, one doesn't have to mess with guessing yeast percentages, and water temperature because of making large quantities of dough..one can just make dough the way he/she  always has....just don't ball the scaled pieces.

as always, have fun!..
john

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2011, 06:40:03 AM »
Norma
I think in the end, the best pizzas will be the ones which are baked in the correct amount of time after balling.  I'm also thinking that although the age of the dough will have an impact, the biggest impact comes from coordinating balling and baking times.  Please realize I'm saying this with just minor experimentation, though...and I'm not done yet.  I've got another experiment in mind that I'm starting tonight.  My experiment last night showed me, that I could use scaled, yet unballed dough and get excellent results...and if this is so, one doesn't have to mess with guessing yeast percentages, and water temperature because of making large quantities of dough..one can just make dough the way he/she  always has....just don't ball the scaled pieces.

as always, have fun!..
john

John,

There is always something new to learn about dough.  So you think there needs to be the exactly correct amount of time after balling for the best pizza.  That is a interesting statement because to find that exact time is always hard to do, at least for me.  I guess the dough need to ferment just enough after the reball for all the conditions to be met.   Sounds a lot like the Reinhart doughs to me.

Will wait for your new experiment.  I also wanted to ask you what TF you have been using for your experiments in this thread.  I am not good at figuring out by the weight of the dough ball what the TF is.  I also wanted to ask you when I start my experiment like you have been doing with a bulk ferment if you want me to start another thread.  I have clogged up your thread enough already with my questions about me trying a bulk ferment.

Norma

Offline DannyG

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2011, 09:17:33 AM »
I find this to be a very interesting thread and thank you John for posting your test results. I am wondering however, how much the type of flour, dough formula, and/or mixing method would effect the results. For example, John says he makes a 14-16 hour poolish. Would the bulk fermentation results be the same if he bypassed this step? Obviously the only way to tell would be more testing. Instead of copying John's recipe it would be interesting to see someone repeat his test but with a different formula or mixing method and post the results.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2011, 09:56:19 AM »
I find this to be a very interesting thread and thank you John for posting your test results. I am wondering however, how much the type of flour, dough formula, and/or mixing method would effect the results. For example, John says he makes a 14-16 hour poolish. Would the bulk fermentation results be the same if he bypassed this step? Obviously the only way to tell would be more testing. Instead of copying John's recipe it would be interesting to see someone repeat his test but with a different formula or mixing method and post the results.

DannyG, I nominate you.  ;).  Danny, I think the reballing after bulk is a good technique that would likely benefit many different NY recipes, but I also think that part of John's success with it is his specific formula, method, baking, and skill level.  I can also see this method not working for some ppl, especially on the first try.

You are willing to wager $'s????  And you want to wager with me (the king of reballs?)???   Chau, I think you are exactly correct!!!...but, I still think that fermenting unballed dough is the way to go because it simplifies the balling process, when one decides it's time!!

Here is a link to my favorite dough at the current time...it's not a Reinhart recipe per se, but I have borrowed his mixing process, along with the practice of reballing.  I have also changed it up abit in that I take 33% of the flour and make a poolish which sits 14 to 16 hours at room temperature.  I'm sure the addition of prefermented flour helps the dough ferment even faster (because of acids), and this gives me a decent pizza after 1 day, but really good ones after 2.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15563.0.html

John


John thanks for the link, I'll check it out.  I agree, that bulk and ball would save time over balling, bulk, then reball.  I was just commenting about building strength in the dough.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 10:03:21 AM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2011, 11:33:50 PM »
John,

I gave your formula a spin and tried the 12 hr bulk and 12 hr balled fermentation.  It came out great, even though I increased the hydro by 2 percentage points because I used a steel plate and thought that a higher hydro may be better for a steel hearth.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg164008.html#msg164008

The second pie from the same batch received a 12 hr bulk and 36 hrs of balled fermentation. This one had a nicer crunch to it but was a tad more chewy than the first.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg164116.html#msg164116

Both pies were excellent in my book. Thanks for posting the formula, John.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2011, 12:16:29 AM »
John,

There is always something new to learn about dough.  So you think there needs to be the exactly correct amount of time after balling for the best pizza.  That is a interesting statement because to find that exact time is always hard to do, at least for me.  I guess the dough need to ferment just enough after the reball for all the conditions to be met.   Sounds a lot like the Reinhart doughs to me.

Will wait for your new experiment.  I also wanted to ask you what TF you have been using for your experiments in this thread.  I am not good at figuring out by the weight of the dough ball what the TF is.  I also wanted to ask you when I start my experiment like you have been doing with a bulk ferment if you want me to start another thread.  I have clogged up your thread enough already with my questions about me trying a bulk ferment.

Norma


Norma
Unfortunately, the lessons we learn can only come in stages, because we have so little time to test, and because some of us (like me), cast such wide nets that we need even more experiments to nail things down.  It also occurs to me, that each of us has our own particular likes and dislikes...and even though we can show each other pictures and try with words to describe what we are experiencing...it still comes down to trying it for yourself sometimes.  From my last experiment, I know that most likely, baking a dough within 12 hours after balling will always give me a better pizza than the same aged dough which was balled after mixing.  In my next experiment, I will bake pizzas all baked within 8 to 12 hours of balling, but made in 3 successive days, and then maybe we can start closing that window of excellence a bit, to find that place we get the great pies from.

My doughs weigh 13 ounces apiece, and I stretch them to at least 12 inches and try for 13..

Please feel free to add to this thread Norma...

John

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2011, 12:19:06 AM »
John,

I gave your formula a spin and tried the 12 hr bulk and 12 hr balled fermentation.  It came out great, even though I increased the hydro by 2 percentage points because I used a steel plate and thought that a higher hydro may be better for a steel hearth.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg164008.html#msg164008

The second pie from the same batch received a 12 hr bulk and 36 hrs of balled fermentation. This one had a nicer crunch to it but was a tad more chewy than the first.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg164116.html#msg164116

Both pies were excellent in my book. Thanks for posting the formula, John.


Gosh Mike
Thank you for giving the process a try....it's nice to see results can be duplicated!!!  Nice looking pizzas!!

John

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2011, 12:27:41 AM »
I find this to be a very interesting thread and thank you John for posting your test results. I am wondering however, how much the type of flour, dough formula, and/or mixing method would effect the results. For example, John says he makes a 14-16 hour poolish. Would the bulk fermentation results be the same if he bypassed this step? Obviously the only way to tell would be more testing. Instead of copying John's recipe it would be interesting to see someone repeat his test but with a different formula or mixing method and post the results.
DannyG

Your inquiring mind is surely welcome here!!!  I've got to tell you though......the making of my dough with poolish is something I just started a short time ago.  The biggest changes are that i get a nice tender crust a little sooner than when not using poolish.  So, I'm gonna say that the "bulk fermentation" method changes most doughs in relative terms depending on what makes up the dough......so, its time for more experiments Danny, ....and you're the guy!!!

John