Author Topic: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough  (Read 26573 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #200 on: January 11, 2012, 09:19:56 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #201 on: January 11, 2012, 09:21:20 AM »
Pictures of pizza from balling the next day and letting the dough ball sit out at room temperature for 5 hrs.

Norma
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Offline Pizza3.14

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #202 on: January 15, 2012, 11:13:15 AM »
Hi guys,

I have been reading this thread and am newly registered.  I have been enjoying trying some of the different NY style formulations suitable for baking in a non commercial style oven.  (500-550 with a stone)  I have always enjoyed a longer cold fermentation length and had great results with the one posted by Glutenboy:

All Trumps Flour -      1520 g - 100%
Water (room temp) -   928 g -  61.05632%
IDY -                        4.3 g -  .282895%   (measured as 1 teaspoon)(corrected to .177632%)
Sea Salt -                   38 g -   2.5%

I will be following his protocol, except I will be making two batches, one with KABF and one with KASL.  Each batch will consist of three dough balls each 300g.  two of which I will ball as usual from the mixer and one will be placed in the container only being weighed.  (I made the dough yesterday evening) I did the same with the three made with KASL.  I labeled all containers and I plan on cooking them this coming Saturday.  I will "gingerly" ball the two loose pieces of dough three hours prior to baking, also allowing the two balled pieces of dough from each batch a three hour room temp proofing before baking as well.  Hopefully with my many tasters we will be able to determine: 1.  which type of flour we prefer between the two.  2.  Does the long cold fermentation time without balling the dough followed by a late balling affect the dough texture, and overall quality as compared to the normal method of weighing and balling before cold fermentation begins.  I will be using the same cheese (amount and type) for all pizzas and a standard one topping per pizza.  I am excited to see what happens, hopefully a technique that will only improve upon Gluttenboy's already great product. 

This is very similar to the experimentation that has been going on and documented on this thread (IE. Norma, Fazzari, ect...) and all credit for ideas and techniques are contributed to previous posters.  My only independent thought is to try it myself. 

I do have one question about the dough, when allowing the dough to proof at room temp before opening it to bake, other than flour and covering them what is typically done to prevent them from crusting?

If anyone has any thoughts of how I could, or should be conducting this I'd love any and all advice.  I love the site and appreciate all the good info. 

I'll hopefully post the results with some pics next Sunday. 

pizza3.14 (Greg)


Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #203 on: January 15, 2012, 04:04:53 PM »
Greg
When I take a dough out of the fridge to ball, I ball it and place it back into its container, covered so as not to dry out.  You might lightly oil the container if you wish.
A quick reaction to your "gingerly" balling explanation.  Remember, that you have to use enough energy to make a ball...don't skimp..you "must" have a smooth seemless ball or you will have weak spots when you open it up.

May i make a prediction? No one will be able to tell the difference in flours.  Everyone will be able to tell the difference in balling procedures, but there will be different opinions on which is better based on personal preferences.  Anxious to see your results.

John

Offline Pizza3.14

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #204 on: January 16, 2012, 08:14:32 PM »
John,

Thanks for the advice on the pre-bake proofing.  I enjoy the crisp egg shell like outer crust followed by the tender flavorful airy inside.  (doesn't everyone)  Hopefully this new technique will help. 

Your predictions are in and I will let you know what everyone thinks.  One thing I didn't mention is that the KABF I am using is the organic, and does not have the niacin, reduced iron, thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, and folic acid like the regular KABF.  The ingredients are organic wheat flour, and organic malted barley flour.  Do you think that this will cause any noticeable difference in taste, texture, or browning? 

Dough balls in the fridge 36 degrees F.  awaiting Saturday.  I'll take some pics and let you know how it turns out. 

Thanks for your response and helpful tip.

Greg

Offline Pizza3.14

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #205 on: January 18, 2012, 10:00:20 PM »
It seems that waiting to find out if you are sitting on a winner is the hardest part. 

Offline Pizza3.14

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #206 on: January 21, 2012, 09:18:08 PM »
The short story is that I had a great pizza night. 

The long story is that some the pizza helpers and tasters were 5, 6, and 7 years old.  They put sauce and toppings on their pizzas. 

The difference between the two flours, (KASL, KABF) was not that noticeable.  - I will try this again-

You were right John, some liked the loose dough that was balled about 3 hours before baking and some did not.  I personally enjoyed the extra flavor that was in the dough that was loose and balled later. 

I would say that the experiment was worth the effort because the Gluttenboy recipe, and the technique from Fazzari can be combined for what I thought was a very good pizza.  Thanks to the idea and thread for working out the technique. 

One thing that I learned that I would not have if the kids hadn't been putting together a few of the pizzas is that I had been putting too much cheese and sauce on them.  I normally put 100g of sauce on a 12 to 13 " pizza.  I would also put 3oz of cheese.  The kids were making faces with toppings and ended up using about a third of the cheese and maybe 2/3 of the sauce I was measuring out for them.  I would put more than they did, however, the way that the dough cooked up I was able to see that I had been using a bit too much for the way I prefer my pizza. 

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #207 on: January 22, 2012, 07:51:24 PM »
Greg
Can you comment on differing baking times, colorization, crispiness, tenderness, floppiness..anything at all that you noticed...Thank you
John

Offline Pizza3.14

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #208 on: January 22, 2012, 10:14:08 PM »
John,

The bake times were all between 8 and 9 minutes.  most right around 8:30.  This was for all pizzas.  One of the tasters noticed a similar colorization to the two different (loose, vs balled)  however, the texture of the crumb was slightly more tender on the pizzas that were balled 2-3 hours before baking.  I personally found that the crust had a noticeable flavor difference and the texture combination of crumb and crisp crust was distinct. 

The floppiness was not really able to differentiate because different amounts of sauce and cheese that was put on each pizza.  Also, where I was making a 13" pie the center stayed pretty firm on most. 

During the "event" I did not get a chance to sit down and write notes, however, I got a bag of "better for bread" flour-I read that this is Harvest King simply by another name- today and plan on making two dough balls and trying this again to confirm my results. 
I will better document this next bake.  I am going to use the same flour and keep all other variables the same in order to get a better read on what happened. 

I noticed that you have a different thread going about this would you like me to post there instead?



Greg

Offline rondo

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #209 on: January 23, 2012, 05:29:58 PM »
I tried this recipe using KASL and used a 30 percent preferment, bulk fermented at 56 degrees fahrenheit for 12 hours, balled and stored at 56 degrees for 18 hours and then at room temperature for 3 hours before baking. The dough was very good tasting, a step up from the standard Reinhardt recipe I have been using, but the dough was not as easy to hand stretch. The dough was mixed in a Bosch with a 4 minute mix, 5 minute rest and finished with a 2 minute mix.
I would normally ball right after mixing and do a cold rise for 36 to 48 hours, and take out 2 - 3 hours before baking.
I am going to try this again this week, prior to a party in a couple of weeks and looking for any insight on the toughness. Obviously an operator error I am overlooking.
The first pizza I ever made was Chef Boyardee pizza in a box. That was many, many slices ago and I remember thinking it was fabulous.


Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #210 on: January 23, 2012, 05:45:26 PM »
John,

The bake times were all between 8 and 9 minutes.  most right around 8:30.  This was for all pizzas.  One of the tasters noticed a similar colorization to the two different (loose, vs balled)  however, the texture of the crumb was slightly more tender on the pizzas that were balled 2-3 hours before baking.  I personally found that the crust had a noticeable flavor difference and the texture combination of crumb and crisp crust was distinct. 

The floppiness was not really able to differentiate because different amounts of sauce and cheese that was put on each pizza.  Also, where I was making a 13" pie the center stayed pretty firm on most. 

During the "event" I did not get a chance to sit down and write notes, however, I got a bag of "better for bread" flour-I read that this is Harvest King simply by another name- today and plan on making two dough balls and trying this again to confirm my results. 
I will better document this next bake.  I am going to use the same flour and keep all other variables the same in order to get a better read on what happened. 

I noticed that you have a different thread going about this would you like me to post there instead?



Greg
Greg
Thanks for the info..... post wherever you want.

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #211 on: January 23, 2012, 05:48:31 PM »
I tried this recipe using KASL and used a 30 percent preferment, bulk fermented at 56 degrees fahrenheit for 12 hours, balled and stored at 56 degrees for 18 hours and then at room temperature for 3 hours before baking. The dough was very good tasting, a step up from the standard Reinhardt recipe I have been using, but the dough was not as easy to hand stretch. The dough was mixed in a Bosch with a 4 minute mix, 5 minute rest and finished with a 2 minute mix.
I would normally ball right after mixing and do a cold rise for 36 to 48 hours, and take out 2 - 3 hours before baking.
I am going to try this again this week, prior to a party in a couple of weeks and looking for any insight on the toughness. Obviously an operator error I am overlooking.

Rondo
I'm sorry, I cannot comment on your pizza as I've never tried the procedures as you describe them.  Right after mixing, my dough is scaled, lightly balled and refrigerated at 40 degrees until 3 hours prior to bake time, which might be 1 day or 6 days.  Have never had a toughness problem.

John

Offline SinoChef

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #212 on: March 30, 2012, 05:14:05 AM »
Quote
.I am totally convinced, that it is the timing of the balling of my dough, which is the single biggest factor in the quality of the dough...and why do I say so....take a look at my latest experiment below.

John

Great thread John. Thank you for taking the time. I was think about eliminating the bulk ferment out of my procedure, because it seemed an unnecessary step.

I am using Gluten Boys recipe here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.0.html

My most successful bake yet came with his 2 hour bulk ferment, in a very cold room, on a very cold table. Then 3 days in the fridge.

I was able to achieve the "Egg Shell' like crust. Very, very thin. Yet strong enough to hold the slice completely horizontal.

Total weight going in the oven is over 600 grams, coming out of the oven it feels like no more then 100 grams. Really amazing.

I think I am going to agree 100% with your statement above!

Thanks!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 04:05:47 AM by SinoChef »

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #213 on: March 30, 2012, 11:34:04 PM »
Thanks for your report....and I'm glad it works for you!!

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #214 on: April 20, 2012, 11:55:01 PM »
We've switched flours to All Trumps...the 14.2% protein one, and I was curious if I would have good luck with this brand, using this method of preparation.  So here goes:  I used the new flour in the recipe posted earlier in this post...the one using a poolish.

The following pizza is one we had for breakfast (breakfast pizza).  It was in the fridge 36 hours prior to bake, it was balled 12 hours prior to bake, and it was taken out to warm up 3 hours prior to bake. 

John



Offline norma427

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #215 on: April 21, 2012, 08:07:39 AM »
John,

Your results using All Trumps and a preferment look very good!  ;D Sure wish I could have tasted your breakfast pizza. 

Norma
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Offline DNA Dan

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #216 on: April 21, 2012, 12:00:58 PM »
John, what's your feeling about All Trumps flour compared to what you used previously? Nice breakfast you have there!

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #217 on: April 21, 2012, 02:38:06 PM »
It was deelish Norma!!

Dan
As for the All Trumps with this method, it was so far the easiest flour I've worked with...only tried it once though, so need more time for better evaluation..  It reballs beautifully, and stretches nicely.

As you know my main purpose for the switch is the laminated dough....we switched a month ago.  We're still ironing out the small changes needed...water temp, hydration, thinning numbers....it's looking great though.  This dough is amazingly strong....and makes super tender crusts.

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #218 on: April 22, 2012, 11:32:00 AM »
That is my experience as well. The dough can be quite strong, especially at lower hydrations. The machineability is excellent using my sheeter. Handles well, like a piece of thinned out potter's clay. Then you cook it and you get a tender, crispy, crust. Amazes me with every pie I cook.

Offline fazzari

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Re: the effects of bulk fermentation on a basic dough
« Reply #219 on: May 03, 2012, 01:25:05 AM »
After watching the Brian Spangler video last week, I was reminded that he uses a room temp fermentation, incorporating stretch and folds to build strength.  I wondered what would happen if one scaled and balled his dough, and then used reballs throughout the fermentation (room temp).  So, I tried.  Here is a 62% hydrated dough (All Trumps), using 33% prefermented flour (17 hour poolish), which is reballed 4 times every 45 minutes and then left to sit at room temp until bake time.  Bake time was exactly 24 hours after the poolish was started.  This is a 12.5 ounce dough stretched to 15.5 inches, and baked in a 580 degee deck oven.  The pizza took just over 4 minutes to bake....would love to try this in a way hotter oven...but the results were excellent all the same.  This is definitely a pizza that is very pliable and foldable, and is delicious.  I still prefer a much crisper crust though.

John


 

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