Author Topic: Fresh yeast  (Read 9873 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2012, 10:11:38 AM »
Peter - Does this imply tasting the yeast itself, or the by products?

John

John,

This is what Professor Calvel says in the book about fresh yeast ("baker's yeast"), at page 19-20:

This commercially produced yeast (Figure 2-2) is generally of uniformly good quality. The taste of bread made through the use of this "biological" baker's yeast is relatively low in acid and is dominated by the taste and aroma derived from wheat flour. These elements are combined with flavor components produced by alcoholic fermentation of the dough and as a result of the baking process. In French bread, the taste of yeast is not discernible until the usage level reaches 2.5%. Beyond that level its presence becomes more and more noticeable as the usage level increases. Without being disagreeable in itself, this is an atypical taste that seems undesirable in bread.

I first became acutely aware of the use of a lot of yeast for crust flavoring purposes when I played around with very low hydration doughs (around 35% hydration) for cracker style doughs/pizzas. Those doughs fermented very slowly so it took a long time to develop all of the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to final crust color, flavor, taste, aroma and texture. So, the easy way out was to just use more yeast. And, since the skins were rolled out, usually with commercial rollers/sheeters (or by rolling pin or equivalent in a home setting), and then docked, dough volume was not an issue since these measures forced most of the gases out of the skins. I also learned that professionals who make cracker style doughs seem to use short periods of fermentation, whether at room temperature (usually for same day use) or in a cooler (typically for a day). So, high yeast usage makes sense as a way of getting more crust flavor.

Peter


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2012, 10:50:29 AM »
Peter, I recently made a 3 hour emergency pie using high amounts of CY, well high for me anyway.  I didn't post the exact amount but it was no higher than 1.5%, I'll have to check my notes again.  But I did note a surprisingly yeasty taste to the crust.   It was also aged CY and not fresh that I used.

Reply #15

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15956.0

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2012, 12:50:54 PM »
Chau,

One of the first times I tried to make an emergency dough was with Tom Lehmann's NY style dough formulation. I was tapped into such a version by something that I read by Tom over at the PMQ Think Tank (unfortunately, the link was in an older version of the PMQTT forum and is no longer accessible). However, I made reference to the amounts of yeast Tom said to use to make a short-time emergency dough, at Reply 407 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251. You will note that the recommended amount was 2% for fresh yeast. Since it has been a very long time since I have been able to find fresh yeast in the markets near me, I have pretty much used the 2% figure when converting from fresh yeast to ADY or IDY.

I note in the example you referenced at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15956.msg156743.html#msg156743 that you used ingredients other than just flour, water, salt and yeast, namely, oil and dry milk powder, as well as old cake yeast. Dry milk powder includes its own flavor contributors, including lactose and other "sugars" (about 52% by weight) as well as small amounts of fats and calcium and other minerals that can impart flavor to products into which the dry milk is incorporated. The lactose itself is on the low end of the scale of sweetness compared with table sugar (it is about 16% as sweet as table sugar), but when I have used dry dairy products, including whey and dairy blends, in pizza doughs I can detect that they are there, typically with a dairy note and mild sweetness. The only way to rule out the contribution of dry milk is to omit it, and use just flour, water, salt and the cake yeast at 2.5%, and preferably fresh. Using old cake yeast might also make an interesting experiment to see if old yeast imparts a flavor that new cake yeast does not.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2012, 04:07:57 PM »
Peter you are right, dry milk and oil can definitely add to the flavor profile, but not in a yeasty manner.  I have used very similar recipes before with a longer fermentation period and did not note the yeasty flavor.

Next time I get some fresh CY, i'll remake this 3hour dough and see if I notice the yeasty flavor again.  I have never used more than 1.5% CY so at 2.5%, the dough maybe ready in an hour or so.    :-D

UPDATE:  My mistake Peter.  My memory is faulty.  I went back and found my notes, it was 2% CY, when I thought it was ~1.5% earlier.  Definately yeasty taste at 2% old CY. 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 09:51:51 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline amiart

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2014, 02:57:12 PM »
One CAN NOT purchase cake in  California in retail. Not sure this person in S.F. knows what they are talking about.
I don't think it is likely that he is lying or delusional, but that does not mean there was a flavor difference either. It is the idea that perception is reality. I saw examples of this dozens, if not 100's of times when I was in the food manufacturing business. You can give people two samples of the exact same product (from the exact same batch even), and if they have any reason to think they are different, they will often pick one that they like better. If they have a reason to think they will like one better, they almost certainly will. I have had people swear up one side and down the other that something was much better than something else that was actually the exact same thing.

CL

Online mitchjg

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2014, 06:52:41 PM »
One CAN NOT purchase cake in  California in retail.

That is incorrect.  Examples:

I have personally purchased cake yeast at Berkeley Bowl.  I believe it also available at Lunardi's in the Bay Area.

A quick search showed me that you can purchase it at Surfas in LA.  ( http://www.lamag.com/digestblog/get-the-goods-where-to-find-the-best-ingredients-for-neapolitan-style-pizza/ )

It is also available in San Diego from NY Bakers.  http://nybakers.com  You can mail order it (which is a way to purchase at retail) or if you are in San Diego you can pick it up in person.

Not sure this person in S.F. knows what they are talking about.

What person?  You are quoting Craig, but Craig is in Texas.
Mitch

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2014, 07:10:42 PM »
That is incorrect.  Examples:

I have personally purchased cake yeast at Berkeley Bowl.  I believe it also available at Lunardi's in the Bay Area.

A quick search showed me that you can purchase it at Surfas in LA.  ( http://www.lamag.com/digestblog/get-the-goods-where-to-find-the-best-ingredients-for-neapolitan-style-pizza/ )

It is also available in San Diego from NY Bakers.  http://nybakers.com  You can mail order it (which is a way to purchase at retail) or if you are in San Diego you can pick it up in person.

What person?  You are quoting Craig, but Craig is in Texas.


Well, props on the "CAN NOT" crawl technology anyway.
Charles

Online mitchjg

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2014, 07:15:42 PM »

Well, props on the "CAN NOT" crawl technology anyway.

You like the marquee ?

It is a button (like bold, italic, etc) available to you when writing a message.  It is the one with the moving capital M. 
Mitch

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2014, 07:31:38 PM »
You like the marquee ?

It is a button (like bold, italic, etc) available to you when writing a message.  It is the one with the moving capital M.

I do !
Charles


Offline bxtzd3

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2014, 11:10:54 AM »
well i make beer. and one of the flavor profiles, as well as fermentation differences, is directly related to yeast. so why wouldn't different yeast strains change flavor? i am new to the forum and up until recently only new about fresh yeast being used commercially so i am very intrigued by this topic. 

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2014, 01:44:00 PM »
well i make beer. and one of the flavor profiles, as well as fermentation differences, is directly related to yeast. so why wouldn't different yeast strains change flavor? i am new to the forum and up until recently only new about fresh yeast being used commercially so i am very intrigued by this topic.

They could if they were selected to do so as they are in beer making, however, the strains selected for commercial baker's yeast products are indented to produce similar flavors regardless of form.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Fresh yeast
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2014, 03:32:57 PM »
Learn something new -

everyday!
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com