Retardation Method

[gabaghool]

Heres one for all you guys:

I use , or should I say I TRY to use a 3 day cold fermentation process. (sometimes we simply underestimate dough needs, and two days is needed)  We mix the dough cold (actually with ice cubes....in summer, a few cubes in winter), mix, divide , roll and straight into the walk in for fermentation.  Now, this is a pretty standard way in the North east.  However, I have heard of places that bulk ferment at room temp AND OVERNIGHT refer and then, the next day divide and roll.

My question is WHY? My guess is that they want to use the dough quicker than 3 days.  I can't understand what would come from doing a bulk fermentation, warm and cold, and then a cold fermentation.  What would be gained, except for expediency.  Perhaps the double rise, once bulk, once portioned helps in development? Seems like overkill with a long fermentation period.   I know there are a ton of guys and gals who understand the science much better than I do....any help??

We use a bread flour, 63% hydration, no oil.

Im trying to improve my product, every aspect basically, if possible.  My weakness is the SCIENCE of all this.

Oh, by the way, in order to HELP me, Im taking an artisan baking course in Kentucky this upcoming February.  I can't see it hurting.  And I think it could possibly HELP more than a pizza baking course because of all the science.

www.artisan-bread-school.com/   Then perhaps I can start returning some of the great advice I've been recieving so far.   I really appreciate it.  Thank you.

[chickenparm]

I can't answer your questions but that school you posted about sounds great! Great price for all that included!
 

[Davidt321]

Hi Deer,
Good fortune to your crust making....fermintation is an Art ,Enjoy this website and others and leave SCIENCE to the scientist.Experiment.You will hit one out of the ball park once in a while!
King authors flour,thick sliced Boars Head Pep.Fresh Basil from your garden and the cheese of your preference.Have fun with it!

[Jackie Tran]

Excellent quesion Nick.  I think the majority of pizza operators make dough a certain way because it either fits their commercial schedule well or most likely b/c that 's how they were taught and they don't understand enough about dough to change the process.  Afterall, why change it if it makes a good selling product already right?  I don't quite understand all the science behind dough and fermentation either, but I have done a lot of these types of experimentations to see the difference for myself.  

I keep fermentation pretty straight forward and simple.  Fermentation occurs faster at higher temps, higher hydration doughs, lower protein flours, and if you use a higher % of yeast in the dough.  I use temperatures, both high and low, to control the rate of fermentation.  To me, there is a certain degree or extent of fermentation that makes a dough ideal to use.  Now you can get to that point slowly or quickly.  The advantage of getting their slowly whether cold or room temp, is that enzymes help break down or soften the dough to give a "better" texture, flavor, and digestibility.  The flavor difference is slight to me, but others swear it's a big difference.    Now whether you arrive at that magical point more slowly via cold retardation or more quickly at a higher temp (room temp), it matters not IMO, especially when using commercial or cake yeast.  

For example.  Just for discussion sake (and this is not how I make dough), but if you ferment a mixed dough until it doubles, punch down, divide and ball, and then allow the balls to double again before baking, you will be using the dough at a certain point in the fermentation process.  IMO it matters not if part or all of the process is fermented at 40F or 75F.  As long as you reach the same point of fermentation, the results will be pretty similar.  

So if we simplify your question and remove the temperature part of the equation, the only difference left is when the dough is balled.  Does that make a difference?    In my experience, YES!  Each process results in a different type of crumb structure in the end product.

So one experiment you can do if you are so inclined, is reserve enough dough for 2-3 pizzas from your regular batch after it is done mixing and don't divide and ball the reserved dough just yet.  Allow it to sit covered at room temperatures (~75F)for 4 hours or until you get about a 50% or more rise in the dough.  Then divide and make balls and cold ferment them in a separate tray alongside the original balls.  This batch will have to be used before the original batch b/c it sat out for 4-5 hours, so maybe a day to 2 of cold fermentation max.  Then take the balls out before baking as you normally would and bake up in the usual fashion.  If you choose to do this experiment, please let me know if you notice any difference in the end crumb structure and texture.

Chau

[gabaghool]

Thanks Chau
I'll try that sometimes this week.

[Glutenboy]

I'm one of those who swears by the long, delayed cold-fermentation.  What exactly happens chemically, I'm not sure, but I do know that bacteria operate more efficiently than yeast at lower temps, and they, in their digestion of sugars, create acids that add depth of flavor.  I know I can taste the difference in a big way.  A dough at 2 days is fine.  The same dough at 6 or 7 days is the kind that has people asking you your secrets (which of course you answer mysteriously with a knowing look and a shrug).  There are definitely people here who could give you the chemistry, as well as old threads with the details.  The more you know...  ding ding ding ding!   

[gabaghool]

GB
Thanks for that input, this is delayed, I never saw your post.

You know, that 5 to 7 day old dough that you say people would be asking what your secret?  I always thought the same way.....but, THAT ISN'T the general thought here, huh?  I mean, it seems MUCH more complicated that just allowing a dough to age?  Its mixing, handling...etc.   

Well, thanks again for the post.

[Jackie Tran]

Nick, I would say that it IS the prevailing thought.  That the longer the cold ferment, the more character, better taste, texture, etc. 

I am probably among the minority who hasn't seen that pan out.   With a starter yes, the longer the cold ferment, the more sour the taste, which is not better for me.  But with commercial and cake yeast, I haven't found that to be true.   And that's with taste.   

With texture, I have only had one 6 day dough that had excellent texture, but again, I haven't really experimented in this area much.  I have also gotten the same excellent light and airy texture with a 4 hour dough.  So how to explain that, I can't.  As you said, it may have something to do with the way the dough is mixed or handled.   Pizza making can be so complicated, and to try to understand it is a daunting task.  Maybe some day I too can taste the difference. 

Here are my pictures.

6 day dough with great texture....reply #112 and 113
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13036.100.html

4 hour dough with that same texture but using 30% starter instead of IDY.
reply #21
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.20.html

[scott123]

Chau, I can't speak as to why your 4 hour dough ended up so much like your 6 day one, but I will tell you that if you take a traditional NY style dough (100% malted flour) and cold ferment it 6 days, most people will find it's beeriness and alcohol-y notes unpalatable.  Not to mention that the protein framework will be obliterated.  00 doesn't ferment like malted flour does.

A 1 day cold ferment brings the inherent flavor of the wheat out and thoroughly hydrates the flour

A 2 day cold ferment bolsters the wheat that much further with other byproducts and acids that give dough a bit more complexity and extensiblity

A 3 day cold ferment is just more of what you get with 2 days with the beginning of a very slight amount of alcohol/beery flavor that most people won't notice

4 and beyond is beer/alcohol city.  Everyone loves beer, and, in theory, bread that tastes like beer appeals to most people, but, when push comes to shove and people actually taste 4+ day ferments, very few people actually prefer them.

Commercially speaking, same days (waking hours) are tasteless.  1 days/overnights are a little less tasteless, but still not optimum.  2 days are the biggest crowd pleasers. 3 are a bit more artisan/niche and 4+ are jumping the shark.

[chickenparm]

Chau,Others,

Do you ever use sugar in your dough?

Btw If I use KABF and do a 2 day cold rise,the taste change is very noticeable from using a same day 3-5 hour dough.If the dough has sugar in it,I notice it more.

The pizza with a dough few hours old does not taste as good,is more bland,plain tasting somewhat.It has no aroma in the crust when cooked.

The cold risen dough of 2 days has more of a strong bread taste and aroma to the crust. I can smell it more on a cold left over slice that has sat out for a while.

If I use HG bleached and bromated flours,this is harder to detect.A cold risen HG dough doesnt seem to change taste much at all,as compared to a same day-1 day overnight one.

These are just my experiences.Not facts for anyone to assume it works that way elsewhere.Next time I make some more doughs,I will take better notes to share.


 

[chickenparm]

Commercially speaking, same days (waking hours) are tasteless.  1 days/overnights are a little less tasteless, but still not optimum.  2 days are the biggest crowd pleasers. 3 are a bit more artisan/niche and 4+ are jumping the shark.

In a nutshell,you said it best what I was typing from my experiences.
 

[Jackie Tran]

Bill, thanks for adding your experience to the list.  Maybe we can put our heads together and figure somethings out.

As I've mentioned before, I don't put sugar in my dough only b/c the LBE and the WFO pumps out enough heat.  In the home oven, I can just use the broiler for browning.   Now I do like sweet breads, so maybe I'll start adding just a little sugar for taste.

I think your description between a same day dough and a 2 day cold fermented dough is accurate.  I can confirm that a same day dough can taste rather bland compared to a 2 day dough, but to me, it's not a HUGE change in flavor.  Yes, it's there and I can taste it but it's not dramatic like the difference between a commercial yeasted dough vs a natural starter dough.  Now to make matters even more complicated, last night I made a 3 hour dough with a ton of cake yeast and 1% sugar.  The dough had a very nice sweet yeasty flavor to it.  Very different than all my other doughs made and it was a 3 hour dough.  I would probably say it had great flavor! 

Now most of my past doughs have also been made with HG (bleached and bromated) flours or a blend there of so maybe you are onto something here.  It would make sense that you would notice the change less in HG flours, since they are stronger flours and seemingly take longer to break down, so in the same time frame, it would make sense that the dough is breaking down less, thus less flavor change.

Scott, I'm glad you plotted down a timeline and I am incline to agree on a general basis.  A lot of my really good NY style doughs have been either a 2 day cold fermented dough or a 24 hour room temp dough, producing very similar results.  However, doesn't your fermentation timeline depend on the amount of yeast in the dough and cold fermentation at a somewhat standardize temperature?

If I were to use a very minscule amount of yeast in a dough, and then do a short bulk ferment prior to cold fermenting, would that dough last much longer than 5 or even 6 days without developing any alcoholic notes or beeriness?
Moreover, what temps are we talking about here for cold fermentation?  40F? 50F? 60F?  Don't all 3 ranges qualify for cold fermentation? 

I think you can see where I'm going with this but the same dough would likely last days longer at 40F than it would at 60F right? 

Again my 6 day dough (7500/25HG) had zero beeriness, alcohol, or sour dough flavors whatsoever.  It just had great texture from what I can remember.  It was made with 0.3% IDY, out at room temps only for 30m, then into fridge at about 40F for 6 days, then warm proofed for less than 1 hour then baked.   I think it might have even lasted a few more days in the fridge.

Obviously how long a dough will last is highly dependant on amount of yeast, type of yeast, fermentation temps, strength of dough, hydration, gluten development, and other factors I'm sure.

Currently I have 6 day dough that I will bake up on Sunday (8 days then) made with 50BF/50HG flour and 20% starter.   So far i don't smell any beeriness.  I'll update you after the bake to see what it does. 

Chau

[scott123]

Chau, 'beery' and 'alcohol-y' were poor choices of words for me to use because they give the mpression that yeast activity is a factor in my timeline.  My timeline is based almost entirely on the enzyme activity of traditional NY style malted flour doughs. I could have made it clearer, but when I talk about a one day dough, it's dough with enough yeast to about double in one day, a two day dough has enough yeast to about double in two days, etc. etc.  The net yeast activity is the same for all these doughs.  It's not the same formulation used on different days.

Yeast has almost nothing to do with it.  It's the enzymatic impact of malted flour + water + time. Since all the doughs about double, the yeast activity is nearly identical- same C02 and the same alcohol generation.  So even though I use the term 'alcohol-y'  I'm not talking about actual yeast generated alcohol, but more about the beer-y by-products and off flavors that you find with extended enzyme activity/dough catabolism. Instead of 'alcohol-y' I should have described 4+ day doughs as 'musky,' 'sulfury,' 'ester-y' or 'fusel-y'.  Basically, my feeling is that some by-products and off flavors give bread a wonderful complexity, while an excess of these flavors will ruin it- at least for most people.  2 days is that perfect balance between not enough flavor and too much.

00 is, as I said, not part of this equation.  Without the enzymes in the malt, the timeline is entirely different.

[Jackie Tran]

Scott, thanks for the clarification.   That makes more sense.  I'll have to try and pay more attention to those byproduct notes of fermentation.  I'm constantly reminded by how much I really don't know about all this pizza making stuff.   I typically don't do long cold ferments with 00 blends.  I just happened to find that one tucked away and thought why not.  It turned out great, but I haven't even had time to repeat that same experiment, because others keep pushing themselves to the front of the line. 

Update Scott, I took that 7 day dough out this morning and took a good long whiff and I DO smell that ester-y, alcohol-y smell.  I cover my douhballs with plastic so it wasn't as evident last night.  I hope this doesn't mean the dough is ruin.  I'll update tomorrow night.

Chau

[scott123]

Chau, with your hydration adjustment for altitude (more water = greater enzyme activity) and 100% malted flour, I'm surprised 7 days isn't giving you a dough that's pourable.

If there is some structure left to the gluten, then 'ruined' is subjective.  Since Nick started the thread, I've been trying to put it in a commercial perspective, targeting the 9 people that will prefer the taste of 1-3 day fermented dough vs. the 1 person that might think 4+ tastes okay. I've seen more than one post here about extreme ferments where the author was raving about how wonderful and flavorful the crust was.  It might be up your alley. Or it might not.  I would probably bet on no, especially since we've had this conversation and you're more aware of off flavors and byproducts and are in a better position to say 'yeah, it's too much.'  It took me a few months of 4 and 5 day ferments to come to the conclusion that I didn't want that much flavor in my crust.

[Jackie Tran]

Scott I took some photos of the dough for your assessment.  As far as I can tell, the dough isn't pourable, but still has structure.  

I made the dough last Saturday.  I'm looking at my notes now, and it is 75% HG, 25% BF at 70% hydration which includes 20% starter.  The dough was out at room temps of 75F for 1 hour from the time the starter was added to the dough.   The dough was then CF at ~55F for 6 hours, out at RT for 1hr, divided and balled, then back into fridge at 40F.

On day 4, I decide to CF one of the balls at 40F and one at 50F, so I can see the difference between the 2.

Something is wrong with my camera. It's putting a black fuzzy speck in the photos.  

Pic 1 top of the dough.  It is covered with plastic to prevent drying.
Pic 2 side view
Pic 3 bottom of ball 1 (at 40F)
Pic 4 Bottom of ball 2 (at 50F)

Scott, it must just be me b/c 2 of my BEST pies, have been made with doughs that were almost pourable.  Meaning once I warmed proofed them to room temps, the tops look like wet putty.  Yes almost pourable.  I posted the pic of this dough here...

Look at the 3rd picture in reply #112
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13036.100.html

I have even reballed one of them and baked 40 minutes later with no ill effect because that is how soft and destroyed the dough structure was.  But after the bake, the texture was awesome.  This is what partially drove me to do the above experiment.  I am wanting to liquidfy that 2nd dough to see what I get.  But to me, there weren't any off flavors NOR were there any extra flavors that I could detect.  Weird huh?  

Here's a theory I have of why I have a hard time detecting these minute flavor differences.  I grew up eating a high sodium asian diet.  I eat a lot of foods that have strong hot, sour, sweet, salty flavors.  Maybe my tastebuds are ruined, I don't know.

[Jackie Tran]

Scott, I posted pictures of the pies made from these doughs here...Reply #278, 279

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14201.260.html#lastPost

The grape pizza is made from the dough that was fermented at the lower temp from day 4 and on.
The cheese pizza is made from the dough that was allowed to ferment at higher temps.

Both crusts were pretty good.  They were crusty and slightly chewy.  Not dry but possible bordering a bit.  I was surprise to not taste any sourdough flavors in this dough whatsoever.   The doughs did smell ester-y but I couldn't detect any wild or odd flavors post bake, just a light and crispy texture.

Chau

[scott123]

Chau, I'm scratching my head here À chacun son goût, I guess.  How's your sense of smell?  I wouldn't consider myself a supertaster, but I might be a little more sensitive than most. Do you have any other guinea pigs for testing your extended cold fermented dough?

Wait, I just thought of one possible contributing factor.  With the amount of browning and char you're getting, perhaps the flavor of the crumb is a bit too subtle in comparison.  I gravitate towards much more paler rims.

[Jackie Tran]

Chau, I'm scratching my head here À chacun son goût, I guess.  How's your sense of smell?  I wouldn't consider myself a supertaster, but I might be a little more sensitive than most. Do you have any other guinea pigs for testing your extended cold fermented dough?

Wait, I just thought of one possible contributing factor.  With the amount of browning and char you're getting, perhaps the flavor of the crumb is a bit too subtle in comparison.  I gravitate towards much more paler rims.

Scott, there are just so many factors that can push the flavors or textures one way or the other.  Maybe I'm just finding all the exceptions?   

Kidding aside, the starter is a very mild starter used at a very young state, so that explains the lack sourdough flavors.  But still it surprised me a bit given the extent of fermentation these doughs underwent.

Again, these didn't hit my personal ideals for texture as I like the crumb to be a bit softer and slightly less chewy but they weren't by any means terrible or ruined.  When I opened up the 2nd dough (higher temp fermentation), I did note that the dough displayed some characteristics of a healthy dough.  It had decent strength to the dough,  didn't open excessively easy to signify that the dough was falling apart.

The crunch/crispiness factor on these were great though.  Light, crispy, and slightly chewy is how I would describe them.

That cheese pie was taken over to a friends house, where 5-6 people had slices.  I watched them eat the slices without complaint or that anything was off.

Chau

[totally_baked]

Hey gabaghool,

Just saw your post.  Better late than never, right?

Anyway, I've been doing Neapolitan-inspired, wood-fired pizza in LA for about a year professionally and sometimes I do something similar, so I think I can address this issue at least partly.  I'm not sure that there is any significant baking science behind this technique but, due to both space and scheduling, I find that it is easier and more efficient to bulk ferment one day and then ball the next day or even the day after. 

1)  Dough in bulk fermentation takes up much less space in the refrigerator than balled dough, even if you put 15 dough balls in a tray.  If space is an issue then this certainly can help save space. 

2) Due to scheduling restrictions, there may not be the time to mix the dough and ball it up in one seamless time period, especially if it's just one guy doing everything and there are hundreds of dough balls to roll.  So it's a timing issue as well. 

2)  I use a soft 00 flour and a minimal mixing style so I find that the guys stretching the dough during service complain that the dough is too extensible and not expandable enough if it sits balled for too many days in a row in the walk-in.  So the issue then becomes one of speed and ease of use from the perspective of your employees - also one of gluten development (or breakdown) depending on how you're looking at it. 

3)  If you leave a wad of dough in bulk, you can ball it as you need it and the balls never sit for too long where the glutens are likely to be broken down by the acids over time as I've explained in #3 above.  If dough balls become too extensible, then this technique can help to to add expandability. 

4)  Bulk fermentation at room temp AND OVERNIGHT may seem strange and maybe it is.  I always ice my water to around 36F before mixing so that the dough is nice and cold when I'm doing a series of stretch and folds before retarding in bulk.  It's just my style but it seems to work.  As you know because you do it yourself, adding that cold water delays the fermentation.  People who don't do it probably just don't know about the technique, imo.

The question of bulk fermentation vs secondary fermentation is an interesting one, especially in regards to pizza that is being retarded for long periods of time.  When you're making artisanal bread and mixing and baking on the same day, there is a lot of good reading material out there that explains the advantages of bulk fermentation but these same advantages become less pronounced, I believe, when you get into pizza and retarding for long periods by traditional bread baking standards. 

For the record, I notice that lots of pizzerias out there skip bulk fermentation all together and that can go either way.  If the baker or pizzeria owner understands the basic tenets of bread baking and chooses to skip that step, then that's one thing.  If they just disregard that step because they're not aware of the conventional baking wisdom with regard to bulk fermentation, than that's another thing.  I myself subscribe to the theory that the best bakers usually make the best pizza.  But I'm a dough dork so that's just my humble, totally biased opinion. 

Good luck in February with your artisan bread baking course.  Be sure to run this same question by your instructor to see if he or she has any good insight or resources.  If he or she does, please post them.  I'm all ears.  I attended a similar course at the French Culinary Institute in NY a few years ago and the knowledge and experience I received from making baguettes and sourdough bread everyday was immeasurable.  But, until then, check out "Advanced Bread and Pastry" by Michel Suas.  It's a very expensive book but you can find the whole thing on google books and he describes the fermentation process in great detail:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JM76vm5tH38C&printsec=frontcover&dq=advanced+bread+and+baking+suas&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-yX2ToXID8_RiAL-hIiXBw&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Hope this helps a bit...
totally_baked