Should I throw this Lehmann dough out and start over?

[norma427]

I decided to mix a regular Lehmann dough yesterday, but with a few twists. I wanted to see if using Dark Rye flour and Ultragrain flour without any other white flour would work for a Lehmann dough, and also how cake yeast would work for a 3 day cold ferment.

I used a hydration of 61%, cake yeast at 0.25%, kosher salt at 1.74%, and olive oil at 1%.  I used 10% dark Rye flour and 90% ultragrain flour.  I could see that the water amount wasn’t going to be enough so I added 12 more grams of water.  This dough ball was going to be for a 16” pizza, to be baked Tuesday.  The dough fells like a rock today and doesn’t look like it is fermenting very much.  To me it now feels too dry to even try to make a pizza.

I really don’t think this Lehmann dough ball will work to make a pizza, but if anyone else cares to comment, let me know what you think.

These are pictures after the dough ball was mixed and balled and another picture of what the dough ball looks like this morning.

I think I should have added some white flour in the flour mixture.

Norma

[Ev]

Norma,
No sense throwing it out. You may as well see it through. I don't think it's really a "Lehmann" dough though.

[dmcavanagh]

Go ahead with your plan and tell us what happens. I've made rye pizza crust, and although not traditional, it wasn't bad. You might consider a creamy mustard sauce rather then tomato, I also topped with some swiss cheese and ham strips. Han n swiss on rye pizza, what's wrong with that?

[norma427]

Norma,
No sense throwing it out. You may as well see it through. I don't think it's really a "Lehmann" dough though.

Steve,

I am not sure if I am going to go though with using this dough, because I really don’t think there will be enough gluten in the dough.  Do you think because I used other flours other than white, it really wasn’t a Lehmann dough?

Norma

[norma427]

Go ahead with your plan and tell us what happens. I've made rye pizza crust, and although not traditional, it wasn't bad. You might consider a creamy mustard sauce rather then tomato, I also topped with some swiss cheese and ham strips. Han n swiss on rye pizza, what's wrong with that?

Thanks for telling me to go though with using this dough.  Did you make straight rye flour dough for a pizza before?  Your idea to use swiss cheese and ham strips with creamy mustard does sound really like a great dressing.  Thanks for the idea!

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Norma, dough is cheap so I would redo the formula but up the hydration by 5% points or more.  Use your judgement and experience here.   Remember how the previous dough felt at 61% hydration?  And remember how it feels the next day, like a rock?  Make your adjustment by feel.  Trust yourself that you will make the appropriate change.
 
As for the first dough, don't bother wasting sauce and cheese on it.  I would only bake it as a flat bread for fun just to tear into it and study it, but that's about it.  Maybe a small taste if I'm really curioius.  Also I would only bake it if the oven was already hot for baking another pizza or something else.  I would not fire up the oven just for this one pie.  Maybe make an edible frisbee for your dog or your neighbors dog.  

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Can you tell me what thickness factor and bowl residue compensation numbers you used and also whether the Ultragrain flour you used is the "Ultragrain Hard Wheat" or the "Ultragrain Soft Wheat" version?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma, dough is cheap so I would redo the formula but up the hydration by 5% points or more.  Use your judgement and experience here.   Remember how the previous dough felt at 61% hydration?  And remember how it feels the next day, like a rock?  Make your adjustment by feel.  Trust yourself that you will make the appropriate change.
 
As for the first dough, don't bother wasting sauce and cheese on it.  I would only bake it as a flat bread for fun just to tear into it and study it, but that's about it.  Maybe a small taste if I'm really curioius.  Also I would only bake it if the oven was already hot for baking another pizza or something else.  I would not fire up the oven just for this one pie.  Maybe make an edible frisbee for your dog or your neighbors dog.  

Chau,

I think I would make major adjustments to the same dough I mixed yestereday, if I do it again.  An edible frisbee for my dough is really funny! 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

Can you tell me what thickness factor and bowl residue compensation numbers you used and also whether the Ultragrain flour you used is the "Ultragrain Hard Wheat" or the "Ultragrain Soft Wheat" version?

Peter

I really don’t know if the Ultragrain Flour I used is the “Ultragrain Hard Wheat” or the “Ultragrain Soft Wheat” version, but I purchased it at the Country Store and they usually get all their flours from Dutch Valley.  I would think this is the Ulragrain flour I used. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/flours/144060/conagra-ultragrain-flour-white-whole-wheat-50lb

This is also a picture of what the bottom part of the dough ball looks like since I just flipped it.  This is the formulation I used too.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Ev]

Steve,

I am not sure if I am going to go though with using this dough, because I really don’t think there will be enough gluten in the dough.  Do you think because I used other flours other than white, it really wasn’t a Lehmann dough?

Norma

Well, pretty much, but what do I know. Maybe a good question for the Dough Doctor.

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Your problem is clearly a hydration problem.

Assuming that you used the Ultragrain Hard Wheat product as shown at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/flours/144060/conagra-ultragrain-flour-white-whole-wheat-50lb, then using the new Hydration Tool in the pull-down menu at http://tools.foodsim.com/ with the percentage values of protein content, fiber content and moisture content as given at http://www.conagramills.com/media/UltragrainSellSheet.pdf, I come up with a percent absorption value of 117.22%. As I interpret that value, it would mean that you would need more water (about 17% more) water than the weight of the Ultragrain flour. A similar situation applies to the dark rye flour also. I don't know if November intended his tool to apply to flours like rye flours also, but using the data on dark rye flour at the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5728/2, I get an absorption value of 134.16%. I have read that whole wheat flours require a longer time to absorb water, and it is possible that the same may apply to rye flour also. I don't work with either flour to be able to comment based on personal experience.

Using the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour and the dark rye flour numbers, and using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/, I came up with a total protein flour for your particular blend of 13.73%. That is a bit less than the protein content of the KASL you have been using. That flour has a protein content of 14.2%. It also has a rated absorption value of 63%, which is far lower than the absorption values I calculated for the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour and the dark rye flour.

I perhaps could come up with a set of numbers for you to use but it would take some thought and I would rather not go through all the number crunching if you do not intend to repeat the experiment but with the proper hydration value. For now, the numbers as I interpret them seem to say that you were way off on the hydration.

I agree with Steve (Ev) that the dough you made is not a Lehmann dough. I would best describe what you did is as a Lehmann NY style dough formulation in drag .

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

Not to interrupt your conversation with Norma but do you know if there's such a 'fact sheet' for the Power flour?

[Essen1]

Peter,

Never mind. Found it here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg157141.html#msg157141

[norma427]

Norma,

Your problem is clearly a hydration problem.

Assuming that you used the Ultragrain Hard Wheat product as shown at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/flours/144060/conagra-ultragrain-flour-white-whole-wheat-50lb, then using the new Hydration Tool in the pull-down menu at http://tools.foodsim.com/ with the percentage values of protein content, fiber content and moisture content as given at http://www.conagramills.com/media/UltragrainSellSheet.pdf, I come up with a percent absorption value of 117.22%. As I interpret that value, it would mean that you would need more water (about 17% more) water than the weight of the Ultragrain flour. A similar situation applies to the dark rye flour also. I don't know if November intended his tool to apply to flours like rye flours also, but using the data on dark rye flour at the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5728/2, I get an absorption value of 134.16%. I have read that whole wheat flours require a longer time to absorb water, and it is possible that the same may apply to rye flour also. I don't work with either flour to be able to comment based on personal experience.

Using the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour and the dark rye flour numbers, and using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/, I came up with a total protein flour for your particular blend of 13.73%. That is a bit less than the protein content of the KASL you have been using. That flour has a protein content of 14.2%. It also has a rated absorption value of 63%, which is far lower than the absorption values I calculated for the Ultragrain Hard Wheat flour and the dark rye flour.

I perhaps could come up with a set of numbers for you to use but it would take some thought and I would rather not go through all the number crunching if you do not intend to repeat the experiment but with the proper hydration value. For now, the numbers as I interpret them seem to say that you were way off on the hydration.

I agree with Steve (Ev) that the dough you made is not a Lehmann dough. I would best describe what you did is as a Lehmann NY style dough formulation in drag .

Peter

Thanks for telling me my problem is clearly a hydration problem. I had no idea what protein levels the rye flour and ultragrain flour were, but wanted to try some healthier flours to see what would happen.  I didn’t even know that whole wheat flours require a longer time to absorb water.  The absorption values you gave me for the ultragrain flour and the dark rye flour are really high.  

I will mix a smaller dough batch today using more water and see what happens.

Oh no, don’t tell Steve what I made wasn’t a Lehmann dough!  For you to describe it as a Lehmann NY style dough formulation in drag, will really have Steve "razzin" me on Tuesday.  

Norma

[parallei]

Bake it up Norma.....the birds always enjoy my failures.

[norma427]

Bake it up Norma.....the birds always enjoy my failures.

Paul,

I am not still sure if I want to bake up this rock. It is just like a blob.  It just sits in the fridge and does nothing.   Maybe I cold roll it out for a thin crust pizza, but it doesn’t even have enough of the right ingredients for that.  After I mixed the dough it didn’t feel really bad, but this morning the whole wheat and rye flours must have eaten up all the water.   That is when it became like a rock. I guess I could bake it into some kind of Christmas ornaments with cookie cutters or something else.  If that wouldn’t work, I could feed it to birds like you do.   I also have my share of failures, and this is one of them.

Norma

[Essen1]

Norma,

I've heard that the guys from the "Mythbusters" show on the Discovery channel could use a new cannonball.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/12/08/BAN31M9Q81.DTL

If all else fails with the dough of yours I'd give them a call. 

[norma427]

Norma,

I've heard that the guys from the "Mythbusters" show on the Discovery channel could use a new cannonball.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/12/08/BAN31M9Q81.DTL

If all else fails with the dough of yours I'd give them a call. 

Mike,

Your link about the cannonball from “Mythbusters” had me chuckling.  I will let you know how my cannonball dough ball turns out.  I really don’t think “Mythbusters” would appreciate your giving them a call for an offer of my dough ball cannonball, but it would be interesting to hear what they would say about the offer. 

Norma

[Essen1]

Mike,

Your link about the cannonball from “Mythbusters” had me chuckling.   I will let you know how my cannonball dough ball turns out.  I really don’t think “Mythbusters” would appreciate your giving them a call for an offer of my dough ball cannonball, but it would be interesting to hear what they would say about the offer.  

Norma

Norma,

I was just goofing off.  

I don't think it's ever been done on the "Mythbusters" show where they used a dough ball as a cannonball. But given the last accident, I don't see them doing a project where a cannon's involved any time soon.