Re: Chicago Deep-Dish Recipe on Ed's (vcb's) Website - RealDeepDish.com

[vcb]

Hey there, fellow pizzaholics!

I've just updated my recipe for deep dish (no lamination required!).
When you get in the deep dish testing mood, can some of you take a look at this latest
compilation and let me know if everything seems clear on it?
Thanks!  

I made the main recipe for a 12" deep dish, but included conversions for other sizes on the last page.

If you follow the recipe and make a pizza, please let me know how it turned out for you.  
  http://www.realdeepdish.com/RDDHolyGrail.pdf  

Also, please check out the section called "The General Method For Pressing Out Deep Dish Dough:" on Lesson 2 of my Deep Dish 101 series. http://www.realdeepdish.com/2011/12-19-deep-dish-101-lesson-2-the-basics/

*I've added a separate page with the "Pressing Out Deep Dish Dough" diagrams.
http://www.realdeepdish.com/pressing-out-deep-dish-dough/

[BTB]

Ed, I tried your recipe for the 12" deep dish last week and have to say that you have a real winner there.  This is the recipe that I used from your website:
 
All Purpose Flour 100 %  225 g  1 3/4 cups  (about 125 g per cup)
Water (110 deg. F) 50 % 113 g   1/2 cup  (4 oz @ 28.35 g per oz)
Corn oil 12.5 %  28 g  1/8 cup or 2 Tablespoons
Olive oil 12.5 %  28 g  1/8 cup or 2 Tablespoons of Regular olive oil
Active Dry Yeast 0.85 % 1.9 g  1/2 teaspoon
Sea Salt 0.7 % 1 .6 g  0.4 teaspoon
Sugar 0.1 %  0.22 g  less than a pinch
 
I didn't know what the Thickness Factor (TF) would be and just put the ingredients together by hand and after 1 hour rise I threw it into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for about 48 hours.  I took the dough out about 2 hours prior to use to let it get to room temperature.  Upon dressing and eating along with another different pizza that I had made, my group thought that your recipe tasted great.  I used some good slice mozzarella and provalone cheese, Italian deli sweet sausage, some pepperoni, Malnati's tomatoes, parmesan/romano cheese, and a few pinches of dried oregano and basil.

[BTB]

The dough ball coming out of the ziplock bag was very oily, but I think you would expect that with the large amount of oil in the recipe.  I sprayed the PAM that you suggested (already had it in my cupboard) and proceeded to press out the dough into the 12" pan.  The dough was very oily and I had to wash my hands a lot with warm water and/or wipe with towels.  That will be an issue with anyone dealing with this recipe, but I suggest to trudge on through anyway. 
 
I found it very difficult to press the rim edges tightly up the sides of the pan.  I thought that maybe I sprayed too much PAM in as a lot of the oil started rolling up the side of the pan as I pressed the dough against it.  Another issue came to mind with this in that there did not seem to be enough dough to press up approximately 1.5" up the side of the pan.  Later I estimated your Thickness Factor to be about .085, which is among the thinnest of the Classic deep dish pizzerias, except for maybe Pizano's.

[BTB]

All in all, however, we thought the pizza was excellent.  I will definitely be trying use of that PAM some more and would experiment with upping the TF or dough ball weight here a little.  Using my standard .125 TF, the dough ball would have weighed approx. 575 grams vs. the less than 400 grams that your 12" recipe resulted in. 
 
Just some comments for what they're worth, which may not be much I realize.  But the pizza turned out great in any event.  Definitely worth doing some more.
 
                                                                                        --BTB

[vcb]

All in all, however, we thought the pizza was excellent.  I will definitely be trying use of that PAM some more and would experiment with upping the TF or dough ball weight here a little.  Using my standard .125 TF, the dough ball would have weighed approx. 575 grams vs. the less than 400 grams that your 12" recipe resulted in. 
 
Just some comments for what they're worth, which may not be much I realize.  But the pizza turned out great in any event.  Definitely worth doing some more.
 
                                                                                        --BTB

Thanks for testing, photos, and for some excellent feedback!
It sounds (and looks) like you had pretty good results!
I've been tinkering with standardizing a recipe to get it close to typical cup measurements.

The Deep Dish Dough Calculator:
A while back, it had occurred to me that since the outer lip of these pizzas is typically not as thick as the bottom crust
(it's just supposed to hold the ingredients in, not create a giant moat of bread),
I thought that maybe the "how far up the sides" measurement on the deep dish dough calculator might be over-compensating,
 i.e. - using too much dough.

So I tried using the same wall height as a the thickness factor (.125)  because of the small amount of of dough that I use to pull up the wall is pretty negligible compared to the entire mass of the dough.

Then, I rounded up a lot of the percentages until I got close to standard cup/tablespoon measurements on a few popular pan sizes. If the numbers look a little off, this is probably why.

I think Loo (or someone?) mentioned that 25% was probably the highest oil amount he'd seen in a deep dish recipe.

From my own experiences, here's a few things that might help with pulling up the outer edge:

• Here's the method (as Lou Malnati's does it) in video form:

  <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EamwTiy9bpQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EamwTiy9bpQ</a>

  
  to supplement my diagrams: http://www.realdeepdish.com/pressing-out-deep-dish-dough/
• If you're using cooking spray, do not spray the side walls of the pan, only a small bit on the bottom, in the very center of the pan.
  The cooking spray suggestion is to help crisp up the center of the pizza faster because the sides often get done first.
• Try using the dough on the same day, right after the first rise (1-2 hours).
• If the dough keeps springing back excessively when you try to press it out, you might need to let it rest a bit longer.
• If you refrigerated the dough, you also might have better control if you press out the dough when it's still a little cold,
  though you might get a bit of spring-back while it's baking, giving you a larger gap between the outer crust and the pan wall, which may actually be desired.

Also, 48 hours in the fridge might have been too long (though I'm sure it tasted good).
Could that long fridge rise be affecting the performance of your dough?

If you're still having difficulty getting the dough to stick to the walls,
I may need to consider upping the "how high" measurement to give you a little more dough to work with.

One more thing. Although I've been using salt in the dough calculator, lately I've been leaving it out of my actual dough (i list it as an option ingredient), which seems to work well for me. I'm not sure how much it affects the texture of the crust, but it adds a nice contrast to the salty ingredients that I often put on a pizza (pepperoni, sausage, bacon, etc.).

**UPDATE: 
I changed step 5) of "MAKING THE DOUGH" from "well oiled bowl" to "lightly oiled bowl" 
and changed step 4) of "ASSEMBLING YOUR PIZZA" to:
"Lightly grease the bottom center (not the sides) of your pan with oil, shortening or high-heat cooking spray."
Also, after looking at my sample photo, I changed "pinch up the sides into a paper-thin lip about 1-1/2 inches high"
to "1 to 1-1/2 inches".

  I hope that helps clarify some things and thanks so much again for the feedback.
 

[BTB]

Ed, I'd say about 60% of the time, I do deep dish dough for "same day use," but if I have a group to plan for, then 24 to 48 hours in advance is better.  I've never noticed any difference between 24 and a 48 hour refrigeration of the dough.  But many here subscribe to longer refrigeration "retardation" for maximum dough flavor.

I've done similar formulations to yours in the past with high oil content of 25% and even 28%.  And they all were very good.  But the oily dough is a little difficult to work with and "messy."  Since then I've come to add a little more flour as the very last step to make the dough a little drier -- but not entirely dry.

I remember viewing many of the Malnati and Uno's TV programs in which various people were involved, and even witnessed pizza making in person at Giordano's, Due's and Gino's East on a few occasions.  And even Edwardo's and Nancy's, too. In all the viewings, I looked closely to see if the dough being pressed out into the pan was as oily looking as my 25% oil-based recipes that I had been using.  I couldn't see any highly oily dough at any time, making me wonder "why not?"

I observed carefully as Marc Malnati, and original Uno's personnel and others pressed the dough into the darkened and highly seasoned deep dish pans and pressed the edges onto the pans edges and noticed . . . no shiny and oily fingertips like when I do similarly with my 25% oil-based recipes.  And I don't see the oily sheen like in the picture above of the dough pressed out fully in the pan.  At least that's my observation.  Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think there's something else in play here.  Chicago Style deep dish pizza is indeed a high oil content style of pizza.  But how high and through what unique processes is not yet clearly determined.  But with serious pizzamakers like you, I'm certain we will get to Deep Dish Valhalla soon.

                                                                                                --BTB

Add:  In one of your points you indicate after 1 or 2 hours of dough preparation to "Punch down the dough and use immediately," i.e. for same day use.  While not wishing to "wordsmith" it, I would think some kind of expression like . . . (many think more rises and punch-downs over a 6 to 12 hour period is preferable for "same day use" deep-dish doughs).  My preference is for waiting 6 to 12 hours before same day use as flavor develops a little better over the hours in my estimation.  But only one's trial and error can tell.

[vcb]

My pizza dough doesn't usually get as oily as the ones in your photos, BTB.
It could be a minor change that gets us where we want to be.

Let me put on my troubleshooting hat for a moment and think about this:
 ( this is me thinking out loud with my troubleshooting hat on :-) )

There's a few things I used to do that I don't do any more:
I don't pour oil in my ziploc bags.
The dough is oily enough. It doesn't stick to the plastic.

I don't pour oil in my proofing bowls.
I lift the ball of dough out of the bowl that I just mixed and kneaded it in ,
spray a small bit of cooking spray in the bowl,
drop the dough ball back in,
and then hit the top of the dough ball with a little more cooking spray.
Then I seal the top of the bowl with plastic wrap and stick it under one of my counter-top track-lights to rise.

Then when I grease the pan, I no longer pour oil in there.
Now, I just spray a bit of cooking spray in the center.

BCS (Before Cooking Spray), I would use a small amount of oil/shortening,
which I would apply with a paper towel so I only have a thin coating.


I made another pizza last night from dough I made on Saturday morning,
so I can also confirm that aging the dough isn't contributing to the oily factor.

My goal is to make the recipe give us great results in the fewest, but clearest number of steps.
I'll revise the recipe to make the dough prep a little clearer on oil usage and proofing/dough flavor development,
and I'll see if I can get a little closer to managing our "oil control" problem.

I do like your idea of dusting the dough ball with flour before pressing it out.
I'm gonna try that next time and see what happens.

I'm glad we can bounce these ideas off of each other.
 

pizza photos: Provolone, Brick cheese that had aged in my fridge too long (tastes like cheddar now), a layer of pepperoni under the sauce, and some leftover slices of sorpressata on top.

[BTB]

Ed, on most of your points, I think I agree with 99% of them.  I never have put oil in a Ziploc bag and have come around to putting little to none in a proofing bowl for the raw dough (since there's enough oil in the dough).  I would in the past just use a tiny amount of oil or crisco to the bottom of the pans spread with either wax paper or a paper towel.  And wipe the pan sides dry with a paper towel just in case.  Now I will look further to using that special PAM spray as it seemed great.

I do think, upon reflection, that same day dough is less oily than those in plastic bags (or otherwise) that have been refrigerated for 1 or 2 days.  Dusting with flour I think is worth a try in any event.

My major complaint with your last posting is that you had to go and add those pictures.  They are absolutely outstanding, perfect coloring and rim thinnest, and makes my mouth water so much that I have to start planning for next weekend.  Happy New Year.

                                                                                     --BTB

[toekneemac]

Okay, I made VCB's pizza to much success.  Only one issue, I had bad oven spring on the sides of the crust that expanded to about 1/2 inch thick all the way around.  I followed the recipe all the way except I only let it rise in the refrigerator for about 3 hours.  Could that be the cause?

And no offense, but I thought a little bland.  I may increase the salt a bit or add garlic powder or something.  But it was nice and crunchy...I may use for my thin crust, if I can keep the expansion down

Oh, I forgot, I actually put only 3 TBSP of oil in the dough, instead of 4.  I read in other posts that it may be a bit too oily, so I reduced a bit.

All in all, it was a great pie.


Any ideas on how to reduce the oven spring?  Thanks

[BTB]

Okay, I made VCB's pizza to much success.  Only one issue, I had bad oven spring on the sides of the crust that expanded to about 1/2 inch thick all the way around.  I followed the recipe all the way except I only let it rise in the refrigerator for about 3 hours.  Could that be the cause?

And no offense, but I thought a little bland.  I may increase the salt a bit or add garlic powder or something.  But it was nice and crunchy...I may use for my thin crust, if I can keep the expansion down

Oh, I forgot, I actually put only 3 TBSP of oil in the dough, instead of 4.  I read in other posts that it may be a bit too oily, so I reduced a bit.

Hard to say.  By "bad oven spring on the sides of the crust," do you mean the rim or "cornicione"?  And do you mean that it was too puffy or thick?  Did you tightly press and crimp the dough up the sides of the pan and avoided oiling the sides of the pan?  You'll notice that in Ed's and my pictures above that both our pizza edges or rims are pretty thin, which I like the best.  I doubt the refrigeration was the problem, but I trust that you let it come to room temperature before putting the dough in the pan and dressing and baking. And also for only 3 hours of refrigeration, you'll get little to no rise.  Best to have just left it on the counter.

Most of the times that I've seen that happen to others was because of too much yeast.  While I don't know for sure, but did you use the suggested 1/2 tsp. (not heaping) for a 12" diameter deep dish?

I didn't find the crust bland at all.  Between the crust, the great cheese, toppings, great Malnati's tomatoes, parmesan, basil and oregano, the total package to me and my taste testers was a great tasting one.  But adding a little more salt and onion powder or garlic powder is definitely not a bad thing to do.  I also like a little more sugar, but I stuck closely to Ed's recipe and loved it.

Did you use both corn oil and olive oil?  Usually they both give some nice flavor to the crust, too.  A thought just came to mind that maybe with the decrease in the amount of oil that you did, too much yeast resulted and caused the issue.  But I'm not certain.  Would suggest retrying sometime, but sticking to the recipe even if too oily, but then just "dusting" with some bench flour to reduce the oily feel somewhat (but not entirely).

It would be helpful if you could have taken a picture to share with us so that we could better be able to see and understand the situation.  Next time, eh?

                                                                                            --BTB

[toekneemac]

Thanks for the reply BTB.

And yes, I used both oils.  The only variations that I made, were the fridge. time and the oil reduction, but other than that, I followed the recipe all the way.

I have included pics here at your request.  And don't get me wrong, it was an awsome pie and I will certainly make it again, with or without oven spring. 

[vcb]

Looks good to me.  

My early deep dish pizzas looked like that one.
A half inch "moat" of crust around the outer edge isn't bad, but not optimal in my opinion.

When you say you did a 3 hour fridge rise, was that the second rise?
Did you let the dough rise on the counter first?

Dough properties can vary greatly depending on the temperature and how long it's been rising.
I'm by no means an expert on pizza dough, but I think if you follow the recipe, you should be close to the results I've been getting, and from your photos, it looks like you're there.

I just checked the link and noticed that you may not have had access to my "Pressing Out Deep Dish Dough" demo page:
http://www.realdeepdish.com/pressing-out-deep-dish-dough/
This may help with future pizzas.

Thanks for the reply BTB.

And yes, I used both oils.  The only variations that I made, were the fridge. time and the oil reduction, but other than that, I followed the recipe all the way.

I have included pics here at your request.  And don't get me wrong, it was an awsome pie and I will certainly make it again, with or without oven spring.  

[toekneemac]

VCB, 

Hey great pie man.  We really enjoyed it.

Yes, the fridge rise was the second.  One hour inside a warm oven.  Not to warm, but enough.

But I agree with the thin sides, it is optimal for us to.  That's why I want to correct this.  I'll try it again with all the oil and a longer cold rise.


I saw your link on pressing out the dough.  I also saw a video from Malnati's, which I am trying to emulate, and did press the dough thin up the sides, like you did.  It's just right away in the 500 degree oven, the dough sprang out. 


Just thinking here, your flour amount, was that in weight or by measuring cup?  I calculated the weight for my flour amount.  Perhaps my hydration was off? 

Thanks,  Tony

[vcb]

Glad you liked it!

The recipe includes weight measurements, which is how I came up with the original recipe,
but also has approximate conversions for people without a scale.

Dough properties can vary, based on temperature, time, and other things.
Definitely follow the dough pressing page. http://www.realdeepdish.com/pressing-out-deep-dish-dough/
Make sure the entire bottom is pressed out evenly before you pinch up the outer lip.
If you have too much dough at the outer edges, that can also cause the thick outer crust that you're experiencing.
If, after baking, your bottom crust is anywhere from 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch thick, you're pretty much in the ballpark.

VCB, 

Hey great pie man.  We really enjoyed it.

Yes, the fridge rise was the second.  One hour inside a warm oven.  Not to warm, but enough.

But I agree with the thin sides, it is optimal for us to.  That's why I want to correct this.  I'll try it again with all the oil and a longer cold rise.


I saw your link on pressing out the dough.  I also saw a video from Malnati's, which I am trying to emulate, and did press the dough thin up the sides, like you did.  It's just right away in the 500 degree oven, the dough sprang out. 


Just thinking here, your flour amount, was that in weight or by measuring cup?  I calculated the weight for my flour amount.  Perhaps my hydration was off? 

Thanks,  Tony

[toekneemac]

Ed,

The bottom came out perfectly.  But I may try, as you say, to press the edge a little thinner.  I made it pretty thin, but I will try it even thinner.  I just finished the last leftover, and it's awsome. It really is.  I added sliced onion and chopped tomatoes to the peperoni, and it was really good.  The crust was strong enough to support itself, and it was browned nicely.

Have you made any stuffed?  Any recipes for that?

Have you made a thin crust pie with your deep dish dough?

[BTB]

This is as beautiful as any slice of Chicago Style deep dish that I know of.  Many may not like it, but I love the extra chunky tomato sauce as seen.  Slightly thicker, but not significantly so.  Good job.  Keep working a little on crimping the edge of the dough tightly against the side of the pan, even as right before you just put the dressed pizza into the oven.  You'll love the results.

[toekneemac]

Thank you BTB,

It tasted delish to.  I tried to emulate Malnati's by adding the tomato chunks to the sauce.  I will watch the dough on the sides of the pan next time and keep everyone updated.  It was a very good crust.  I hope that Ed has a good one for a stuffed pie!

[vcb]

Thank you BTB,

It tasted delish to.  I tried to emulate Malnati's by adding the tomato chunks to the sauce.  I will watch the dough on the sides of the pan next time and keep everyone updated.  It was a very good crust.  I hope that Ed has a good one for a stuffed pie!

Sorry, I don't do stuffed, but others in this forum have, if you're looking for a recipe.
Yes, I have used the deep dish dough for thin crust, but I still use a pan. Last time I did, I used a 12" dough in a 14" deep dish pan and got decent results. Baking time should be less than deep dish, especially because you don't want the cheese to burn.
 
Typical Chicago thin crust is different, however. It will be a style I will try to master some day, but I'm more concerned with making a decent sauce for thin crust. I haven't found the right base (tomatoes) for the sauce yet, but am leaning toward puree or paste.

[toekneemac]

Ed,

Use the puree.

Are you a north or south sider?  I have 35 years in Chicagoland(suburbs) and just recently moved out to Cali (3 years).

[vcb]

Are you a north or south sider?

I currently live on the north side, but I grew up in the burbs.
-
I just shot some more test video for realdeepdish.com and threw together this teaser in iMovie.
Please enjoy:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXUgqnZZFU8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXUgqnZZFU8</a>